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Ken Holland's Draft Success

Jonathan Willis recently penned an article on the Detroit Red Wings' development model and how the Oilers could reshape their model to match Detroit's success. One passage caught my eye:

The really interesting thing is that Detroit really hasn’t found a lot of NHL’ers in the draft. Since 1997 (the year Ken Holland was named general manager) the Red Wings have turned just 14 of their draft picks into full-time NHL’ers in Detroit (this number excludes a few, like Tomas Fleischmann or Kyle Quincey, who left the organization before becoming NHL’ers). For the sake of contrast, the Oilers have grabbed 23 players during that same span who would turn into full-time NHL’ers while with the team.

14 full-time NHL players doesn't seem like many, but two traits of Ken Holland's Red Wings impact their draft:

  • They finish near the top of the league every year and have lower draft picks than the rest of the NHL. In fact, the Wings have been the best team in the league since Holland took over, meaning that they've had the lowest average draft position in the league since 1997.
  • In the pre-salary cap days, Holland used draft picks as chips to acquire real NHL talent.

With that in mind, I wanted to see how Holland stacked up to the rest of the league when it came to draft acumen.

Star-divide

Scott Reynolds did a study on the success rate of players drafted from 1997-2005 grouped by their draft slots. He defined success in a draft pick by whether the player drafted became a "top player":

So what constitutes a "top" forward in the NHL in terms of drafting? In my view, it's those forwards that are expensive and the most expensive players tend to be those players that produce consistent offence. Any forward with the "checker" label likely isn't going to be making much money and the type is frequently available for a song in free agency. It's obviously better to draft a Dominic Moore than a total bust but he's not the kind of player that should be particularly difficult to replace via free agency. We know that because he see him sign on the cheap almost every year. As such, I've set the criteria for a "successful pick" in these drafts as any player who has played a minimum of 200 NHL games and has scored a minimum of 0.5 points per game.

Defenders are a bit more complicated. The elite defensive defenders make a lot of scratch so it doesn't seem like points is the best measure of ability especially since the power-play specialist type (think Marc-Andre Bergeron) will rack up points but isn't all that expensive to replace. That said, I think a minimum points requirement is necessary; a player with no offence is surely somewhat detrimental. Thus, a 0.15 points per game minimum standard will be used to accompany the 200 GP threshold. In addition, I've decided to use a TOI minimum of 18:30 per game which should eliminate the guys who are just power play specialists.


What of goaltenders? Honestly, unless you get a clear starter who can perform at a high level, there's nothing there that you couldn't buy cheap. As such, the goaltender must have achieved an above average save percentage (minimum .910 over the career) and must have been the starting goaltender for at least two seasons (min. 40 games played per season). These goalies (sometimes) have value. Anything less than that, not so much.

The results from Scott's study show that NHL teams had the following hit rates from each draft slot grouping:

Draft Number Total Top Players Percentage
1 9 6 0.667
2-3 18 16 0.889
4-7 36 18 0.500
8-13 54 21 0.389
14-25 108 30 0.278
26-50 225 31 0.138
51-100 448 30 0.067
101-200 877 33 0.038
201+ 635 22 0.035

Scott's study period coincides with the beginning of Ken Holland's reign as the Red Wings General Manager in 1997. From 1997-2005, Holland traded away 5 first round, 3 second round, 2 third round and 3 fourth round picks. Those trades, combined with the Wings' overall success, placed their highest overall pick at #19. I've compared Holland's results to the league results from the same time period:

Draft Number League Pct. DET Pct. DET Picks League-exp. Top players DET Top Players
1 0.667 N/A 0 N/A 0
2-3 0.889 N/A 0 N/A 0
4-7 0.5 N/A 0 N/A 0
8-13 0.389 N/A 0 N/A 0
14-25 0.278 0.5 2 0.556 1
26-50 0.138 0.25 4 0.552 1
51-100 0.067 0.455 11 0.737 5
101-200 0.038 0.079 38 1.444 3
201+ 0.035 0.087 23 0.805 2

Approximately 1/29 of the league percentage is Holland's average, so the Wings are pushing the league average in this comparison. Even though he's competing against a portion of himself, Holland torched the league overall. He was better than the league average in each section, including 7x better in the 51-100 slots and 2x or more better than the league average in the 101-200 and 201+ slots. On the far right is the expected value of top NHL players based on league average and Detroit's total picks by slot grouping. If the Wings would've been league average through the 97-05 years, they would have drafted 4 top NHL players with their 78 draft picks. Ken Holland drafted 12. He was three times better than the league and he wasn't relying on the lottery to build the Wings system. His haul during this period included: Jiri Fischer, Niklas Kronwall, Jiri Hudler, Tomas Fleischmann, Jimmy Howard, Valtteri Filppula, Johan Franzen, Kyle Quincey, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, and Jonathan Ericsson.

Ken Holland may have "only" grabbed 12 top NHL players in those 8 drafts, but he was 3x better than his average peers. How? Of the 12 players, 9 of them were either of European descent or were playing in a European league when they were drafted. Holland exploited an enormous competitive advantage, either the sheer talent of European scout Håkan Andersson, or some other informational edge to blow away the competition in Europe.

Holland switched gears after the lockout. Since ratification of the new CBA, Holland has moved just four picks in the top four rounds in six seasons. The Wings now have a deep system of drafted prospects set to replace the pre-lockout picks as they retire. They include Brendan Smith, Gustav Nyquist, Calle Jarnkrok, Petr Mrazek, Riley Sheahan, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Teemu Pulkkinen, Joakim Andersson, Xavier Ouellet, and Marek Tvrdon. 10 of their 12 prospects are European. I doubt Holland can be 3x better than his average colleague again, but if they maintain that informational advantage and continue to exploit the edges, the Wings will remain on top, even without the saving grace of lottery picks.

Comment 30 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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So, how long did their rebuild take?

by Yeti# on Feb 8, 2012 7:18 AM MST reply actions  

About twenty years.

From 1966-67 to 1985-86.

They’ve missed the playoffs once since then.

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by Doogie2K on Feb 8, 2012 5:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Sooo you’re saying the Oilers are just getting started then, YAY!

The Edmonton Oilers – Rebuilding through character assassination since 1998

by Joe Girth on Feb 10, 2012 2:36 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

So what you’re telling me is that Holland found an untapped resource (that is staring everyone in the face) in the European market and exploited the fact that the rest of the NHL is convinced that European hockey players lack “grit,” “size,” or whatever? And, that he’s been doing this since 1997 and no one has yet bothered to look over his shoulder and take a serious peek at European scouting?

Who could have predicted the strength of the Don Cherry narrative?

I am supposed to be impressed right? Well… crap it worked. I’m also depressed. So there.

(But they wear visors!!)

by Romulus' Apotheosis on Feb 8, 2012 10:14 AM MST reply actions   2 recs

Good take

But it’s important to remember that in Detroit it’s really a team effort. The front office staff of Jimmy Devellano, Jim Nill, Mike Babcock, and Kris Draper all have input into the draft and development of young players. The former players like Chris Chelios, Chris Osgood, and Jiri Fischer have important rolls in developing young players after they are drafted. And of course, the scouting department with the aforementioned Hakan Anderson (as well as Kirk Maltby and many more) are a huge part of finding that talent to begin with.

As well as Holland has done as GM, however, I wouldn’t be too afraid if he decided to retire tomorrow. Holland deserves his due as GM, but he infrastructure the team has developed is well prepared to carry on in similar fashion once he’s finally had enough winning and rides of into the sunset.

by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 8, 2012 10:38 AM MST reply actions  

Mike Babcock, Kris Draper and Kirk Malby weren’t involved with managemen, until very recently, with Babcock being the longest serving of the 3 having been around since 2005 and aren’t involved with the bulk of what this study is covering.

And yes, Detroit has some great infrastructure but all it takes is the wrong guy making wrong decisions at the top for it all to come tumbling down.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 8, 2012 11:18 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

My point

wasn’t that Draper and Maltby are responsible for the current success in their current positions. My point is that they are in the position of working with the guy(s) who are responsible for success. I’m not suggesting they are the next great GM’s in waiting, but they certainly are learning part of what makes Holland and the Red Wings successful.

Based on what I’ve read about the Wing’s organization, Holland is a not-insignificant part of the Red Wings success. But by no means is he an irreplaceable part.

by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 8, 2012 12:23 PM MST up reply actions  

You were the one who listed them, and listed them in response to this article.

And while they are in a position to learn, that doesn’t mean that they will. And I’d argue that losing a key guy who makes a lot of good decisions is about as irreplacable as it gets.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 8, 2012 1:46 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Would be interesting to compare Holland’s performance in grabbing “top players” to his performance in grabbing mere “NHL players”, e.g. anybody with 200 GP. In other words, is there any basis to infer that he tends to swing for the fences with his picks, leading to a boom or bust performance? That’s certainly how I would run my drafts as a GM—picking guys with 3d line upside seems silly—and I wonder if there’s evidence that’s what Holland does. The other option I suppose is that he (or his organization) is just better overall.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Feb 8, 2012 10:58 AM MST reply actions  

Interestingly the Flames had pretty much the opposite draft strategy over the last 7-8 years under Sutter: cast your line in well fished waters, make a lot of safe “character” and “grit” picks out of NA, etc. As a result, they were have been one of the worst drafting teams in the league post-lock-out.

by Kent Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 11:13 AM MST up reply actions  

I wonder how much familiarity comes into it. When Lou Lamoriello signed Henrik Tallinder in 2010, he mentioned mentoring the young Swedes the Devils had drafted as part of the reason. Then you’ve got Tim Erixon basically crying his way out of Calgary for 17 different reasons (at least if you believe Feaster). You have to wonder if potential hockey culture clashes are why some teams avoid certain types of players.

It is remarkable what Detroit has continued to do though – their train shows signs of slowing down some, but stopping? I don’t see it.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Feb 8, 2012 11:30 AM MST up reply actions  

True. The Flames did an abrupt about face when Sutter arrived though – went from spreading their picks out to laser like focus on the WHL and OHL. They stopped picking from every European country aside from Sweden.

So it looked like Sutter actively created the culture in Calgary – fashioned it into a potentially hostile environment for some “types”.

by Kent Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 11:39 AM MST up reply actions  

Right, I believe that, I just wonder how much that sort of thing plays into it for a GM who isn’t obsessed with Canadian grit and lunchpail players.

It annoyed me that after signing Kovalchuk, the Devils didn’t draft a Russian last year. Even though there’s a decent shot a late round guy will never come over, it seems like the trend is to pass on these players entirely.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Feb 8, 2012 11:51 AM MST up reply actions  

Considering Nyquist is shredding the AHL and Tatar isn’t far behind, and Brendan Smith is nearly ready, and Jarnkrok and and Pulkkinen are tearing through the Euro leagues, I don’t see it slowing down either.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 8, 2012 3:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Their forwards should be fine even as guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg start to decline. Their defense – they’re still not gonna replace Lidstrom, he’s an all-time great. That’s why I say it will slow down a bit.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Feb 8, 2012 8:33 PM MST up reply actions  

True, but they can also improve on the bottom pairing to mitigate some of that.

They’ll end up with Weber somehow.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 8, 2012 8:54 PM MST up reply actions  

There have been picks somewhat recently which suggest drafting a few of the grit guys (Riley Sheahan, most notably), but the overall trend suggests that the Wings pick hockey sense first and move from there.

Of course, it’s obvious that other teams are trying to do that same thing (or at least disingenuous to imply that every other GM out there isn’t looking for smart hockey players). I think that some of what the Wings have found success in is debunking the concept of “you can’t teach size.” Detroit tends not to go after the larger, more physical players, so they tend not to get the guys who tend to just have 3rd line upside. Instead, you pick young guys with good hockey sense and who are good skaters. As they develop in the AHL, they learn to adjust their game. The successful ones add the smart kind of physicality that lets them correctly choose their spots to deliver hits and defend themselves well against the same. You see guys like Jiri Hudler and Valtteri Filppula, who aren’t known as good hitters or physical players, but they’ll surprise people with big checks every now and again. More importantly, you almost never see those guys as the recipients of big hits.

by J.J. from Kansas on Feb 8, 2012 2:40 PM MST up reply actions  

This is a great little study. It is remarkable, as has been pointed out in the comments, that more teams have not tried to emulate his (and Jim Devellano, who is the one who truly turned the Wings around and mentored Holland, in addition to still being a huge part of the front office) work. We draft European players that show the right attitude (bar Daniel Larsson, Dick Axelsson, and, maybe, Jiri Hudler) and respect for the game as well as a high hockey IQ. We then support those picks by grabbing cast offs that few other teams would use and attempt to turn their careers around (just on the current team, you have Brad Stuart, Patrick Eaves, Drew Miller, Mike Commodore, Ian White, Dan Cleary, and even Todd Bertuzzi. All shunned by the majority of the league, all turned into decent to great players here)

But the thing that really should have been given attention in the article is that we have a luxury that no team — other than the Sharks, Canucks, and Devils, perhaps —has had during this period: development time. We let our players mature until they are ready, not push them out on the ice because they are needed. Because of our continued success, there is no urgency to play a player before they are ready. Jimmy Howard, for example, was 25 or 26 by the time he was made our backup — and even then, most fans wanted him to remain with the Griffins another year. Or look at Brendan Smith right now. Smith has, arguably, been NHL-ready since he was drafted. At this point, a lot of teams in the league would have played him on their second defensive pairing or higher. Because of the longevity of our players (Chelios and Lidstrom playing into their 40’s and not forcing Kronwall on the ice too quickly, mostly), Smith won’t be an NHL regular before next season at the earliest.

If more players could avoid hitting the ice at 18-21ish and spend some time in the minors learning the game and gaining experience, more of these third and fourth liners would be elite players in the league. And, just to relate this back to Edmonton, it seems that every high draft pick you guys make sees their way onto the ice almost immediately. Hall, Gagner, Eberle, Omark, and even RNH would have benefited from a year or two developing in the minors rather than being forced out there before they were 100% ready. Look no further than Dubnyk who came into the league with much more experience than your average player and has shown he has what it takes to be a franchise goalie when the call comes.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Feb 8, 2012 5:02 PM MST reply actions  

While the Wings do a great job developing players, I am highly, highly skeptical that Brendan Smith would be on most teams’ 2nd pairing.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Feb 8, 2012 8:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Fair enough

We all overrate our prospects, right? I’ll admit to being guilty there.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Feb 8, 2012 8:53 PM MST up reply actions  

This is what I think really separates the Red Wings from other teams: patience. Would guys like Zetterberg, Franzen, Holmstrom, and Datsyuk have adapted as well as they did if they came over as soon as possible? Maybe.

Does it hurt them to be patient? I don’t think so. And the Wings don’t seem to give up on guys as quickly as others.

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by PPP on Feb 8, 2012 9:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Kyle Quincey is the one black mark from recent times. The only thing that patience might lead to is making the wrong decision because waivers happen pretty darn fast, especially with defenders. But it’s more than worth it for what they get out of it.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Feb 8, 2012 10:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t know that it’s patience as much as the team is already really good and doesn’t need to rush kids to the lineup for whatever bad reason.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 8, 2012 11:25 PM MST up reply actions  

I think it is both. Ken Holland has said before that his natural inclination is to be very patient with player development, and he is with a team and a situation that allows for it. If he were impatient, or the team couldn’t afford to be, it would be a different result. Synergy.

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 9, 2012 4:59 AM MST up reply actions  

i'm just wondering, and maybe it doesn't really amount to much in terms of the analysis

but why split most of the earlier draft picks that way? i can understand isolating the first overall from the rest of the first round, but 2-3, then 4-7, etc.?

You wanna tell me that to mah face?!

by uvgt2bkdnme on Feb 8, 2012 10:25 PM MST reply actions  

I admit that I chose those groups somewhat arbitrarily. It’s a tough balance because I want a reasonably large sample size for each group, but I also recognize that there’s a huge difference from one slot to the next near the top of the draft.

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 9, 2012 10:14 AM MST up reply actions  

I think this will help

Wings fans have heard this story before. Ken Holland was a minor league goalie in the ’80s for the Whalers and Wings organizations. He got called up to the NHL early, got burned, and got discarded. This is from an article by Nick Cotsonika at Yahoo Sports last month about Jimmy Howard and the Red Wings development strategy:

“Time after time, Holland saw guys get called up, get excited, get humbled, get crushed and come back down needing their confidence to be rebuilt. They were rushed before they were ready or put in a position to fail because the big club was struggling and looking for a quick fix. …

“They draft later, so they don’t get teenage phenoms who can jump right into the NHL. They get prospects with flaws. They look for skill, smarts and heart more than strength and size. They give their prospects time to grow, and they can afford to wait while winning. Ideally, they want their prospects overripe when they finally make the NHL …

“‘It took me back to my time as a player,’ Holland said. ‘It’s a man’s league, and some people are men at 20, some people are men at 22, some people are men at 25. We all mature at different rates.’”

Aside from top draft picks like Taylor Hall, Seguin or Stamkos, don’t all draft picks have some flaws? I think this method could probably work with Edmonton’s blue chips, as well as Detroit’s late rounders. But do Edmontonians have the patience?

by voline on Feb 9, 2012 3:17 AM MST reply actions  

I think the patience would be there if management had shown they were capable of making smart decisions in the meantime. It’s one thing to say “the best is yet to come”, it’s another to say “but until it gets here, things are going to be embarrassingly bad.”

by despisethesun on Feb 9, 2012 12:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Is there a study done on the effectiveness of drafting former team mates kids? That’s our new philosophy right?

by Matt.N on Feb 9, 2012 5:46 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

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