TSN Said What?

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 11:30 AM MST in Opinion

Soft with a capital E U R O (Photo by Dale MacMillan/Getty Images)

There are about 4 times a year where TSN just goes completely insane and way overboard with their coverage. You have the NHL entry draft, The July 1st free agency bonanza, the WJHC and trade deadline day.

For this glorious day, TSN typically fills in the internet with all kinds of content like individual team needs, trade trackers, pages to promote their regular apps, pages to promote their deadline specific apps, pages that contain all the previous information in a condensed form, etc… Not to be out done, there is the marquee players (or as TSN likes to call it, Trade Bait). These are the guys who are most rumoured to be on the move and it contains a quick little summary of the player as well as cap hit and contract years remaining.

In viewing that page, you’ll also notice that someone at TSN was kind enough to also put the position of the player down… and not just the position (i.e. C, LW), but also what line that player should play on. I first noticed this on That’s Hockey a couple of hours before the Oilers – Flames game and a few names and positions jumped out as rather strange.

Without names, these are the GP and point totals since the lockout, as well as their TSN position of 5 different forwards:

GP	G	A	PTS	P/G	TSN Pos
477	148	248	396	0.83	#1 C
497	220	212	432	0.87	#1 RW
191	47	51	98	0.51	#2 LW
405	100	256	356	0.88	#2 RW
499	193	172	365	0.73	#1 C

Over at Tyler Dellow’s site, a commenter named Roke has a pretty interesting view:

Blue-collar grinder types get a huge leash despite generally being mediocre to abysmal at hockey at the NHL level. Players putting up gaudy goal totals or huge point numbers generally aren’t criticised too much. Be neither of those things and everyone expects you to play like Ethan Moreau and/or put up points like Wayne Gretzky. For all the complaints about specific plays during the game I believe most complaints stem from people being disappointed by a player’s goal or points totals (or God help us, the pox that is regular +/-).

It would amaze me if this line of thinking wasn’t applied to these rankings. Three of the players listed are viewed as rugged power forwards who hit and occasionally fight. You know, good stand up kids! The other North American player isn’t a power forward, but he’s still seen as a gritty guy who can play in traffic and kill penalties. The 2nd line RW who leads all these guys in PPG? He’s just a euro who doesn’t hit, doesn’t kill penalties and apparently doesn’t score enough to make up for that.

Or someone at TSN has lost their mind.

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Comments

I’m assuming you are talking about Hemsky here???

Seems like a bit of an oversight. Only knock against him is most of his points come from assists and not goals. Overall though, his ability to bring the puck into the offensive zone, and quality of his assists seem to be of a higher contribution to goals than the league average.

When you look at the situation overall however, I don’t think many in the league put Hemsky in the same league as someone like Nash. I doubt this offseason Hemsky will be offered many multi year $7.5M contracts. Maybe when looking at more advanced metrics would tell a different story, however would not likely be reflected in the market.

by George Roop on Feb 22, 2012 12:12 PM MST reply actions

I’ve never understood the “G > A” mentality. You need A (often more than one!) to get G most of the time.

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by Doogie2K on Feb 22, 2012 4:24 PM MST up reply actions

Ultimately, scoring is the harder skill.

But a guy who can rack up 40-50 assists playing with basically anyone has some tremendous value in it’s own right anyways.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 4:45 PM MST up reply actions

You can have an unassisted goal but you cant have an ungoaled assist.

G>A Obviously.

by BusDriver on Feb 22, 2012 4:52 PM MST up reply actions

Assists just aren’t a pure stat. They were a stat created to try and better explain contributions to the primary scoring stat, which is goals.

For passes that set up a one-timer goal, or a pass to score on a half open net, assists are directly attributable to goals. The case against would be the 2nd assist. Or for example in an extreme case, when a goalie makes a 10 foot pass to a defenceman, who skates end to end, drops to a trailer who scores. Goalie gets assist, who really had little impact on the goal.

A case could be made that screening a goalie on a goal is warranted of an assist as it more directly impacts a goal.

by George Roop on Feb 22, 2012 9:19 PM MST up reply actions

You can far more easily rack up assists due to luck than goals

2nd assists, assists on plays where you do nothing to actually contribute to the goal,etc.

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by garik16 on Feb 23, 2012 3:09 PM MST up reply actions

Great caption man.

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Writer for The Copper & Blue and a frequenter of the time waster that is Twitter.

by ryanbatty on Feb 22, 2012 12:58 PM MST reply actions 1 recs

Would you trade Hemsky for Braden Holtby and something? Washington might be deperate enough tto do that deal.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 22, 2012 2:24 PM MST reply actions

What could Tyler Bunz fetch? They are on about the same trajectory.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 2:36 PM MST up reply actions

Assuming they have no intentions of signing him… trading Hemsky for Holtby straightup would be a phenomenal trade. Then get rid of Khabibulin in anyway shape or form and now we’ve got 2 young guys competing for work next season in net.

by Czechboy on Feb 22, 2012 2:53 PM MST up reply actions

The problem is Holtby’s career is full of average years with a big spike in 2010-11. I don’t know what’s so phenomenal bout him to be honest.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 3:15 PM MST up reply actions

I said it’d be a phenomenal trade not that he’s phenomenal. However, he’s the exact kind of player we need for next season in my version of the rebuild which involves signing some depth players and getting another quality goalie… of course, I’m not management so we’ll resign Barker and have Khabi in net and then sign him to a 2 year extension at Xmas.

by Czechboy on Feb 22, 2012 6:24 PM MST up reply actions

How is Holtby a “quality goalie”?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 22, 2012 6:43 PM MST up reply actions

I think gcw_rocks answered that below… new question: how is he not?

by Czechboy on Feb 22, 2012 11:27 PM MST up reply actions

Because he’s only got one quality season on his resume.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 23, 2012 7:21 AM MST up reply actions

Holtby has 2 seasons of AHL expereince under his belt and has a 14-2 record at the NHL level with a save percentage close to .930 in thos games. His AHL save percentage was .920 last year and .911 so far this year, .011 higher than Sabouin.

Bunz hasn’t played a pro game yet. Not a fair comparison.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 22, 2012 2:56 PM MST reply actions

Supposed to be a reply to dawgbone

by gcw_rocks on Feb 22, 2012 2:56 PM MST up reply actions

I’m going by their WHL seasons, which seem to mirror each other pretty well.

A .911 sv% is good enough for 23rd in the AHL amongst goalies with 20 or more GP. He had a great season last year for sure, but you start trading for goalies based on a single good year and you are going to be shooting yourself in the foot (see Andrew Raycroft).

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 3:13 PM MST up reply actions

He also has a good win loss record this year on what appears to be a pretty mediocre defence and has pretty good seperation on the other Hershey goalie, save percentage wise, who has been a pretty solid AHL goalie for a number of years.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 22, 2012 8:35 PM MST up reply actions

A pretty mediocre defence and the 2nd best offense in the AHL.

Yes, he’s played better than Danny Sabourin (who has 1 decent AHL season since 2005-06)… not sure that actually says much though.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 9:20 PM MST up reply actions

I’d love for Tambo to just do a heavily front loaded contract. Something stupid like 10-8-4-2.25-2 for 5 years at 5.25, that expired just before he’s 35 so the next contract isn’t a 35 plus one.

Think Hemsky would sign at for the front loading and security? Oh wells, que to trade for magic beans. Meanwhile Ruutu is cooling his heels at 4.75 for 4.

"When you find yourself rooting for mediocrity – you might be an Oilers fan." - Neal Livingston

by proxy on Feb 22, 2012 3:05 PM MST reply actions

ANY contract for Hemsky would be a good thing…

by Czechboy on Feb 22, 2012 6:25 PM MST up reply actions

He would be the next Horcoff before that deal expired

by gcw_rocks on Feb 22, 2012 8:36 PM MST up reply actions

que = cue…meh…sleep deprived and overworked. Soon to be bitterly disappointed by the imminent Hemsky trade.

"When you find yourself rooting for mediocrity – you might be an Oilers fan." - Neal Livingston

by proxy on Feb 22, 2012 3:06 PM MST reply actions

Odd, the #2RW has a better PPG than the #1RW.

Oh, I know what the problem is, the #2 RW must play on a good team right?

30th, 30th, 29th…..

by DarrenV on Feb 22, 2012 4:53 PM MST reply actions 2 recs

I do wonder if I was being overly cynical in that comment. When writing it I was thinking of Hemsky in Edmonton and Andrei Kostitsyn in Montreal. Both players have early-ish first round draft pedigrees and seem to face similar “analysis” complaints/criticism. Hemsky’s clearly a superior player mind you, but I seem to get the impression that people are always expecting either player to be something they aren’t.

I’m more familiar with Kostitsyn in Montreal than Hemsky in Edmonton but in his career he has a lot of the “soft, enigmatic, under-performing, not great with the media” criticism that Hemsky’s come under. That’s despite often being used as the team’s tough-minutes winger, doing the dirty work in front of the net for what was one of the league’s best powerplays, and being one of the team’s leaders in hits (I know the hits statistic sucks, but “he doesn’t hit” is a constant complaint).

Looking at that TSN thing, I wonder if draft pedigree plays a role in the positioning of the players If you’ll allow me to be too cynical again, I think the halo-period for Europeans drafted in the first-round is a hell of a lot less than it is for North Americans (hello Mr. Barker). I also think that North Americans settling into being merely good-to-decent top-6 players (hello Ryan Malone) don’t face the weight of star expectations that Europeans do (Hello Andrei Kostitsyn).

The comment for Dubinsky is hilariously Tambo-like, “A former 2nd-round pick with 20 goal potential”. The guy’s a 25 year-old hockey player who has scored 20+ in each of the past two seasons. I think the “potential” boat sailed 2 or 3 seasons ago.

Finally, how many teams would need to be added in expansion for Jack Johnson to be a #2 defenseman? I figure it has to be at least 20.

by Roke on Feb 22, 2012 5:03 PM MST reply actions

I don’t think it was overly cynical. I mean Ethan Moreau, despite all evidence to the contrary, was finding work after the Oilers got rid of him.

Meanwhile Robert Nilsson, who is probably twice the player, can’t get an NHL gig.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 6:18 PM MST up reply actions

You can score or hit guys. These are the only two jobs allowed.

Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

by Stephan Cooper on Feb 22, 2012 8:32 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs

They need to make Hemsky an offer or hurry up and trade him. His points overall are much higher than Ruutu, but his injury history must be taken into consideration. I’d say make an offer of 4 years at $5.5M. That should be an OK starting point.

by BillHK on Feb 22, 2012 5:09 PM MST reply actions

For what it’s worth, Ruutu was a trainwreck in terms of injuries for a while too. In fact, they’ve played almost the same number of games since the lockout.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 22, 2012 6:13 PM MST up reply actions

The longer they wait the more value they get. For instance, the Ruutu signing in creased Hemsky’s value. I do wonder what Hemsky is asking for and what he’ll get… I get the feeling he has been offered nothing and they’re not even trying. Who knows … might be signed for a lot less next season.

by Czechboy on Feb 22, 2012 6:29 PM MST up reply actions

Sign him.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 22, 2012 6:44 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs

I have been more in the trade him camp, but if he will sign a 3 year deal with a limited NTC, then they should sign him.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 22, 2012 8:37 PM MST reply actions

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