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Sam Gagner - #4 in The Copper & Blue's Top 25 Under 25

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Sam Gagner went from the Edmonton rail (as in run out of town on a) to Edmonton hero in 34 minutes. Before his unbelievable night against the Blackhawks, Gagner was the spare part, the also-ran, the center of rebuild v1.0 who was now too old, too small, and too musty to fit into the current plans. "Gagner for Schenn" was repeated so often that the mantra was the core to noted imaginarium owner Eklund's daily round-up. If it wasn't Schenn, Gagner was going to be the center of some package exchanged for a defenseman of some repute.

And then he got the softs treatment and the healthy parts of the chosen line. The results have been the hottest story in the league. But Gagner's success with good teammates should not surprise the media and fans who have closely watched all of the games of the last five years. Gagner centered the very successful Penner - Hemsky duo from 2009-2011 and the Hall-Eberle duo in 2010-11. But those results were glossed over as the media and fans suffered from BSOD (bright shiny object disorder).

What is humorous about Gagner's season, at least to those who find humor in the consistency of reactions to luck, is that his "breakout" season (according to the media) is the same season that Gagner finally found good fortune:


PDO
07-08 989
08-09 1016
09-10 980
10-11 973
11-12 1030

Will the media turn their back on him once his luck fails?

Star-divide

Rank Player DOB Drafted Year Ben
Bruce
DB
Derek
Jon Ryan Scott
4 Sam Gagner 08/10/89
6 2007
2 4
4
2 4 4 4

Previous Rank: 4

Jonathan left Gagner at #4, and I left him in place at #2, while Bruce and Scott bumped him up one slot from #5 to #4. Ben Moved him from #4 all the way to #2.

The horizontal axis shows qualcomp, specifically Corsi relative quality of competition taken from the venerable and terrifying Gabriel Desjardins' behindthenet.ca. The vertical axis shows percentage of faceoffs taken in the defensive zone, again from the venerable and terrifying one. The bubbles are color-coded: blue means the player in the bubble has a positive zonestart-adjusted Corsi, red a negative. Finally, the size of the bubble indicates absolute value zonestart-adjusted Corsi.

Gagnerresults_medium

*Click to enlarge or find the full-sized chart here.

Take his chart above and his player card at Behind the Net and there's an interesting story. Gagner has posted a positive relative Corsi five years in a row, but that's been relative to the worst team in the league. Gagner's success with Hall and Eberle is in line with his history of posting excellent results with good linemates in each of his previous four seasons. As I said in that article:

Sort the table by "C". Note Gagner's percentages when he's on the ice with a pair of competent linemates. He might not be able to carry a line on his own, but he's certainly not holding back better players. His chance percentage when on the ice with Penner/Hall and Hemsky is better than that of Henrik Sedin's percentage against the Oilers over the last two seasons. His chance percentage with competent players is better than that of the league MVP against the worst team in the league. There's a real player there, he's just not capable of carrying a line on his own. Yet. He's only 22, give it time.

But when Gagner looks around the locker room, he's got to be confused. The chosen ones, moreso Eberle and Nugent-Hopkins, are receiving cherry opportunities, better than anything Gagner has ever been handed in his time in Edmonton. Gagner has worked as hard as any Oiler since the lockout, yet at the start of each season he's forced to play rickshaw for lower-tier players. And the favorable treatment isn't just at even strength. Gagner has never played the amount of power play time the chosen ones have been handed this year.

His two-way game is sound and getting better. He's never been afraid of traffic and is one of the few young Oilers willing to barge to the net and jam the puck home. He's one of the smartest players on the ice and uses it in all phases of the game. He's even improved on his greatest weakness:


FO
07-08 41.8%
08-09 42.0%
09-10 47.4%
10-11 43.8%
11-12 48.7%

There's a player under this five years of terrible development, and he's always been there. It's just taken a bit of the chosen treatment for the media and fans to recognize it.

Comment 44 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Charts! Graphs! Stats! GAGNER!!!!

This post has it all. Even a positive conclusion. Best day evar!

Nice job Derek.

by David S on Feb 17, 2012 11:54 AM MST reply actions   2 recs

Thanks David, the sentiment is appreciated.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:26 AM MST up reply actions  

This is phenomenally written.

I wonder how much better Gagner would be today if the Oilers had developed him properly instead of thrusting him into an NHL role as an 18-year-old (even if he did perform rather admirably that season).

by The Neutral on Feb 17, 2012 12:14 PM MST reply actions  

It’s a tough question to answer because holding him out of the lineup then takes a year of Craig MacTavish coaching from him and that may impact his two-way game, especially since the coaches since MacT have been weaker.

Thanks for the kind words, by the way.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:28 AM MST up reply actions  

Good stuff.
I don’t want Gagner traded but I will say this. If you are going to pull the trigger on a trade for an equally good young d-man, at least Gagner’s thirty four minute hockey orgasm means you might get a decent return now. Selling high is a good game to play, so long as you get a decent and necessary player coming back.
I’m just saying…

by Yeti# on Feb 17, 2012 12:15 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Then again, Oilers have ST as a GM.

by OilPen on Feb 17, 2012 12:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, I’m on the record for saying that Steve is a cultured, articulate and calculating GM in whom our trust is well placed. He’s the kind of guy that inspires my fullest confidence.

by Yeti# on Feb 17, 2012 3:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Can you define confidence?

The Edmonton Oilers – Rebuilding through character assassination since 1998

by Joe Girth on Feb 17, 2012 3:16 PM MST up reply actions  

In the context of your comment I thought it might mean

con•fi•dence /ˈkänfidəns/

Noun: To sit in dark corners in a fetal like position, rocking back and forth, chanting “there is a plan, there is a plan”. This is usually done whilst sucking on ones thumb.

The Edmonton Oilers – Rebuilding through character assassination since 1998

by Joe Girth on Feb 17, 2012 3:47 PM MST up reply actions  

No comments on the injuries?

He’s a 5th year player. Do we expect Hall and RNH to be sheltered in year 5?

He’s a good player, and I have been pleased by his progress this season, but this seems to be a rose coloured glasses review.

And I would still trade him for a d-man if the opportunity arose, especially if the Oilers draft one of the Russians. You have to give to get and he is 2 years away from free agency.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 17, 2012 12:16 PM MST reply actions  

Hall and RNH are both 1st overall picks expected to be great players.

The guys you should be comparing Gagner to are Eberle and MP and whether you expect them to be sheltered at 22 years old (next year for Eberle, the year after for MP). The answer for both of them is they probably should be.

Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

by Stephan Cooper on Feb 17, 2012 12:22 PM MST up reply actions  

I suspect MP won’t need sheltering in two years’ time.

by Passive Voice on Feb 17, 2012 12:25 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t think age is the issue, its years of expereince. Do I expect Eberle or MP to require sheltering in thier 5th year in the league? Not a chance.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 17, 2012 1:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Age probably means more than years of experience. And Gagner is a highly unusual case for age of experience arguments. Most 18 year olds don’t play in the NHL.

Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

by Stephan Cooper on Feb 17, 2012 2:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t agree age means more than expereince. It would be interesting to do some analysis on that, looking at forwards entering the NHL at 18 and compare thier first 7 years in the league to the first 6 of 19 year olds and the first 5 of 20 year olds and see if age or expereince matters more..

by gcw_rocks on Feb 17, 2012 2:15 PM MST up reply actions  

The 18 year old that do make the NHL tend to be dominant talent. Gagner isn’t that. So your going to have sample size issues there.

Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

by Stephan Cooper on Feb 17, 2012 2:39 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree, age doesn’t matter. Mark Lawrence was just as good a prospect for the Islanders as Paajarvi is for the Oilers.

Twitter|Cult of Hockey|OilersNation|LeafsNation|Hockey Prospectus|ESPN Insider

Mail: jonathan (dot) willis (at) live (dot) ca

by Jonathan Willis on Feb 17, 2012 4:56 PM MST up reply actions  

“Age doesn’t matter” flies in the face prospect development, career arc comparisons.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:34 AM MST up reply actions  

No comments on the injuries?

None of his injuries threaten his long-term health.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:32 AM MST up reply actions  

I’m not concerned about it now, but I was quite concerned about how Gagner would bounce-back from the wrist laceration this summer. Obviously, I’m very pleased that it doesn’t seem to have impacted his game.

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 18, 2012 12:01 PM MST up reply actions  

I think you’re missing the trick very slightly: yes, Eberle and other golden boys are getting cherry minutes while Gagner does the tough sledding. That’s because Gagner’s good at it.

(That, incidentally, is why I ranked him #2. Last time around I was down on him a bit because his statistics were treading water; when I re-evaluated him I realized “wait a second, his statistics are treading water in consistently more difficult situations.”)

Manager at Vancouver Whitecaps and western Canadian soccer website Eighty Six Forever and infrequently-posting flunky at Edmonton Oilers blog The Copper & Blue.

by Benjamin Massey on Feb 17, 2012 12:24 PM MST reply actions   2 recs

Not sure I would call “treading water” good at it, but that’s a matter of perception.

Clearly he has some skills, and he thrives when playing with good players. But the offence doesn’t seem to be there when playing with the second tier of players, and if the Oilers draft a centre at number 2 that may be all he has to play with next year.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 17, 2012 1:48 PM MST up reply actions  

If you think Gagner is just treading water, you need to look at his PDO and SH%.

This last bit we’re seeing Gagner slightly better than usual (modulo the handful of games we saw where he was ridiculously good), but much closer to his true potential against tough competition than we have been. “Holding your own against tough comp” is something this team sorely needs.

by eddy the lip on Feb 17, 2012 1:52 PM MST up reply actions  

ben’s words, not mine.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 17, 2012 1:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Great, now you’re making me take it up with Ben.

I’ll own it.

by eddy the lip on Feb 17, 2012 2:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Season 1: 0.62 PPG
Season 2: 0.54 PPG
Season 3: 0.60 PPG
Season 4: 0.62 PPG

That was what I meant by “treading water”. No more, no less.

Manager at Vancouver Whitecaps and western Canadian soccer website Eighty Six Forever and infrequently-posting flunky at Edmonton Oilers blog The Copper & Blue.

by Benjamin Massey on Feb 17, 2012 3:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Honest question – do you think those numbers are representative? I’m still getting my head around how some of these other stats are applied, but my reading is that we haven’t seen the best of Gagner by a long shot.

by eddy the lip on Feb 17, 2012 3:06 PM MST up reply actions  

You know, I think we’re sort of on the same page, we’re just expressing it differently.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:35 AM MST up reply actions  

Great Write-up

I shudder to think what would be happening had Gagner not had his phenomenal game: the deranged jackals would be riding him out of town just like Hemsky.

Gagner gives me hope that we won’t be catapulting Eberle, Hall, & Hopkins off of the Oilers in 5 years. Instead of kicking the firemen out of the smoking house and putting the blanket over our heads, this fanbase may yet actually learn to help the firemen extinguish the blaze.

by Trites on Feb 17, 2012 1:37 PM MST via mobile reply actions  

the deranged jackals would be riding him out of town just like Hemsky.

Before that game, my sentiment was “I’ll wait to see where Gagner goes before I figure out who I’d like to see win the Stanley Cup”

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:36 AM MST up reply actions  

You have Gagner ahead of RNH?

Wow are you ever gonna hear it from the shills.

by DarrenV on Feb 17, 2012 1:40 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Without clear criteria, not sure how you can critize.

Would love to seem some math applied to the rankings. have the CnBers define 5 or 6 criteria and weightings to each criteria and have them score all the players against those criteria, and then let the rankings fall where they may. This is a math site, is it not? LOL. If you had that, then you would have the basis for discussion. Otherwise its purely subjective. For example, when I hear “under 25”, if I were scoring potential would be the most important critieria. But I doubt that is the case for all. Sone normalization through structure would be helpful.

by gcw_rocks on Feb 17, 2012 1:59 PM MST up reply actions  

It would be awfully hard to set up weighted criteria since these guys are playing in different leagues, at different positions, are different ages and so on. Unless you’re talking about having us rank the players in very broad categories like “Career Potential” but that certainly wouldn’t make things more objective.

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 17, 2012 2:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Does the shills mean ’majority of Oiler fans?

by gvblackhawk on Feb 17, 2012 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

I did last time around too.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:37 AM MST up reply actions  

The chosen ones, moreso Eberle and Nugent-Hopkins, are receiving cherry opportunities, better than anything Gagner has ever been handed in his time in Edmonton.

I remember watching Stoll and Reasoner play FOGO for the kid line back in 07-08. He was given some pretty cherry minutes that year (probably the reason for his career high in points up to this year).

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98

by dawgbone98 on Feb 17, 2012 2:08 PM MST reply actions  

I remember it very differently. Reasoner in particular was a coach’s favourite and was simply taking minutes away from the kids because MacTavish had an irrational love for him. If only MacT had played the kids even more rather than the grinders we’d have won a Stanley Cup. And that’s a fact, because like everyone was saying so at the time.

by Yeti# on Feb 17, 2012 3:17 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

And yet, Mac still didn’t protect him like Renney is protect Hopkins and Eberle.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:39 AM MST up reply actions  

If you’re talking ZoneStarts, I agree, in fact this is an evolving strategy league-wide it seems to me in that the extremes are polarizing. That said, Gagner was #1 in easiest ZoneStarts on the ’08-09 Oilers at 55.4%. He and Nilsson were 1-2 on the squad in a similar manner that RNH and Ebs are 1-2 on the current team.

If you’re talking match-ups, however, I don’t agree at all. MacT did his utmost to get “the Kid Line” out against the softs. In both +-QoC and Corsi REL QoC, the trio ranked 7-8-9 on the club. Whereas on the current team, Hall-Eberle-RNH rank 4-5-6 on +-QoC (all of them ahead of Gagner by the way), and 4-7-8 in Corsi REL QoC. Gagner, a 5-year vet, ranks 5th in this category, middling tough but not exactly the vaunt.

Oilers fan through thick, thin and anorexic. Writer for The Cult of Hockey.

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 18, 2012 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Ah… the BSOD (bright shiny object disorder). I very much enjoyed your article on that disorder in last year’s Journal of Oiler Fan Psychology. Of course, I would be remiss if I didn’t draw your attention to a companion piece published in the same journal on OFGLSS (Oiler Fan Goat Lazy Susan Syndrome).

by Romulus' Apotheosis on Feb 17, 2012 3:30 PM MST reply actions  

Wait until I publish my next article on Escapegoatism.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 18, 2012 7:38 AM MST up reply actions  

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Clear Victory Standings

Western Conference

  1. Detroit Red Wings (27-11, .711)
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Division Standings

  1. Central (79-58, .577)
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  3. Pacific (62-54, .534)
  4. Northeast (69-65, .515)
  5. Northwest (49-69, .415)
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