Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Is The CIS An Underutilized Resource?

Half of the CIS Alumni currently playing in the NHL.

When the Edmonton Oilers signed Hunter Tremblay to a two-way contract back in April, Scott Reynolds noted how rare the signing of a Canadian Interuniversity Sport player by an NHL team has been in recent years.  As evidence, he looked at recent high scoring placers to come from the CIS: "There aren't a whole lot of CIS players that end up coming through the ranks to the NHL, so a look at a couple of the recent top five scorers in the Atlantic University Conference might be instructive. Marc Rancourt, for instance, was second in scoring in 2009-10, and has been a point per game guy for the Landshut Cannibals in the German second division. Justin Donati was a top five guy in 2008-09, and he's torn the cover off the ball in the ECHL for the last two years, finishing second in the scoring race in 2009-10, and leading the league in scoring this season. If Tremblay is in that range, he may well be a useful player in the AHL right now. And it's not like it's impossible for the player to turn out. Joel Ward came through the University of Prince Edward Island to the pro game, played a couple of years in the AHL, and then found his way to the NHL at age 28."

"There aren't a whole lot of CIS players that end up coming through the ranks..." caught my eye.  It's odd to me that a league larger than any of the junior or minor leagues, a league filled with players possessing 15-20 years of experience each, a league filled with players in the midst of their last chance, a haven for late bloomers, wouldn't send more players to the NHL.

Star-divide

CIS Alumni who have appeared in the NHL include: Bryon Baltimore, Wade Campbell, Colin Chisholm, Cory Cross, Randy Gregg, Ian Herbers, Dave Hindmarch, Kevin Primeau, Brent Severyn, Don Spring from The University of Alberta; Jack Borotsik, Tim Lenardon from Brandon University; Ross Cory, Dan Lucas, Barry Wilcox from the University of British Columbia; Ron Fischer, Terry Johnson, Scott Robinson from the University of Calgary; Jim Corsi, Glenn Tomalty from Concordia University; Paul MacLean, Jody Shelley from the Dalhousie University; Ken Lockett from the University of Guelph; Ken Richardson, Dave Tataryn, Jack Valiquette from Laurentian University; Larry Carriere, Chris Hayes from Loyola College; Clint Albright, Andy Blair, Art Chapman, Tom Cook, Jimmy Creighton, Stu Grimson, George Maneluk, Morris Mott, Murray Murdoch, Don Raleigh, Mike Ridley, Gus Rivers, Jack Ruttan, Wilfie Starr, Ron Talakoski, Justin Larkins from the University of Manitoba; Nels Crutchfield, Mathieu Darche, Jack Gelineau, Jack McGill, Johnny Peirson, Reggie Sinclair from McGill University; Gary Inness, Don O'Donoghue from McMaster University; Charlie Bourgeois, Claude Vilgrain from the Université de Moncton; Ross Yates from Mount Allison University; Darryl Boyce from the University of New Brunswick; Dave Cameron, Gerry Fleming, Joel Ward from the University of Prince Edward Island; Morris Mott from Queen's University; Ken Lovsin, Ross McKay from the University of Saskatchewan; Bernie Wolfe from Sir George Williams University; Dale McTavish, P.J. Stock from St. Francis Xavier University; Mike Backman, Mal Davis, Doug Doull, Bob Warner from St. Mary's University; Mike Boland, Nelson DeBenedet, Andre Hidi, Larry Hopkins, Gary Inness, Paul Knox, Darren Lowe, Chuck Luksa, Hank Monteith, Dave Reid, Kent Ruhnke, John Wright from the University of Toronto; Steve Rucchin from the University of Western Ontario; and Rob Dopson from Willfrid Laurier University.

There are a handful of career NHL players on the list, and a number players who spent a couple of seasons in the league.  Edmonton Oilers' fans are quite familiar with The University of Alberta's Randy Gregg, Edmonton's greatest hockey hero.  Gregg remains CIS' (then CIAU - Canadian Interuniversity Athletics Union) greatest alumnus and most famous face with Mike Ridley in second place, though NHL fans should recognize Darryl Boyce, Mathieu Darche, Jody Shelley and Joel Ward - the only CIS alumni active in the NHL today.  Considering that Gregg's Golden Bears had three future NHL players on the roster during his time there, four CIS players in the entire NHL today seems to be a terribly low number.

With 34 teams and over 800 players competing each season in CIS hockey, odds are a few players should be able to play hockey at the high pro levels.  In recent years, nearly all players on CIS rosters come from the CHL thanks to various CHL scholarship programs.  For example, in the WHL:

For every season a player plays in the WHL, they receive a full year guaranteed Scholarship, including tuition, textbooks and compulsory fees, to a post-secondary institution of their choice. For example, players graduating from a four-year WHL career are eligible to receive four years of scholarship funding.

Players who aren't drafted into the NHL or signed as overage players by professional teams take advantage of the scholarship dollars made available to them through their years of CHL service.  They get a "free" education, but they also get a unique opportunity to continue their development as hockey players.  While undrafted, unsigned CHL players aren't typically thought of as developmental projects, players of the same age in the NCAA, AHL and NHL are thought of as such.  Rob Daum told Guy Flaming that the CIS is most certainly a developmental league:

"The perception is that it isn’t.  You’ve got players that come here out of major junior and they’ve been scouted for four or five years, some of them. But to think a player doesn’t develop after they turn 20 years old is absurd. I mean, what’s the American Hockey League for? What we have here are guys who are potentially late bloomers, some of them mature physically at a later time, and they continue to develop as players; there’s no question about that."

If the players are still developing in the CIS, there remains a chance that at least a few of them are going to put everything together and be able to make the jump to the next level, a la Boyce, Darche and Ward.  Late bloomers are typical in the NCAA, consider players like Taylor Fedun, signed by the Oilers out of Princeton, and Brayden Irwin, signed by the Maple Leafs out of Vermont.  Both developed solid games and developed physically as they completed their eligibility - the same thing probably happens in the CIS, but is anyone around to notice?

A number of observers have told me that NHL scouts are an occasional presence at CIS games, but not a regular presence.  One scout told me that his team had no one responsible for covering CIS teams, but that if they get a tip, they'll drop in on a game or two to follow-up.  A survey of NHL team sites and scout biographies turned up no one who had direct responsibility for CIS teams.

In spite of the lack of scouting, there are opportunities available to CIS players, though those opportunities are limited mostly to summer development camp invites. The Oilers brought Tremblay's UNB teammate Kyle Bailey to their developmental camp, and each summer about 20-25 CIS players are invited to developmental camps throughout the NHL.

CIS teams have plenty of talented players, players who prove it by playing extremely well in various professional leagues.  However, there isn't enough talent for NHL teams to devote more resources to scouting the league.  It's an ideal situation to use advanced stats to delve deep into the league without spending a large amount of money.

It's possible that a well-connected network is enough to keep NHL teams informed of what's going on in the CIS, but if there are inefficiencies in the scouting and signing of CIS players, it makes sense for an NHL team to exploit the opening.  But even if there are some uncovered gems there has to be enough excess value in those gems to make a financial investment in extended scouting or a full-time scout worthwhile. 

There's no way that CIS teams carry enough excess value for all 30 teams to spend scouting resources on the league.  NHL teams are better off requesting detailed stats from the 34 member teams so that they may do advanced statistical analysis in order to unearth the value in the league.  Beyond that, development camps will remain the best, and cheapest, method of finding CIS talent.

Comment 21 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Go Bears!

One of the following two players is an NHL prospect, the other a fine CIS defenseman.
Which and why?

Born Jun 4 1988 — Edmonton, ALTA
Height 6.01 — Weight 210 — Shoots R

Born Jul 29 1988 — Ft. Saskatchewan, ALTA
Height 6.00 — Weight 195 — Shoots R

by Mr DeBakey on Sep 4, 2011 10:21 AM MDT reply actions  

The first is Fedun, I have no idea who the second is.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Sep 4, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

The other guy is Bear’s d-man Ian Barteaux, a helluva hockey player.
But you’ll note he doesn’t quite hit the magic 200 lbs mark.

The CIS is full of good smaller guys and big, slower guys.

**
And a note:

Players who “take advantage of the scholarship dollars made available to them through their years of CHL service” aren’t required to play hockey. They can attend any school they want, whether or not it has a hockey program.

by Mr DeBakey on Sep 4, 2011 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, understood, but if they are high end players, they are going to play hockey. They’re almost compelled to

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Sep 4, 2011 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

I always thought Steve Rucchin plied a hell of a career for himself and maybe ‘opened the door’ for other guys but it seems a CIS guy breaks through every 10 years or so. He also came in on a line with Selanne/Kariya which never really hurts. Still, I’d say he is one of the most successful CIS players by far.

by Czechboy on Sep 4, 2011 10:34 AM MDT reply actions  

I think the problem with the CIS is that players come out of it later than in the NCAA. Joel Ward was 24, soon to turn 25, upon entering the pro ranks. That means only 2 years of non-waiver eligibility, and only 3 years until UFA. Even someone like Ward, whose AHL numbers are pedestrian (38 goals in 215 games), did most of his maturing seemingly at the NHL level.

Also, I imagine scouts and GMs mistrust players who go to Canadian colleges instead of going to the ECHL or a similar league.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Sep 4, 2011 10:43 AM MDT reply actions  

Also, I imagine scouts and GMs mistrust players who go to Canadian colleges instead of going to the ECHL or a similar league.

I’m not sure I follow – why would they mistrust them? Because they go to college and learn rather than take the hard knocks?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Sep 4, 2011 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure I follow – why would they mistrust them? Because they go to college and learn rather than take the hard knocks?

Yeah. The player must know that not many NHL players come out of the CIS, so why take that route? Go pro and get noticed, don’t fill your head full of fancy book-learnin’.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Sep 4, 2011 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’d love to know how prevalent that attitude is.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Sep 4, 2011 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

Given the former prejudices against players who went to the NCAA, I imagine it’s quite prevalent. If you’re giving yourself an out if you don’t make it, you must not think that highly of your chances to make it.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Sep 4, 2011 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

You’re assuming it’s the player’s choice to go the CIS route. I’d bet that at least 90% of the time, if they had been offered a reasonable pro contract, they would take that route. NHL teams probably don’t spend a lot of resources scouting these players because they have been rejected at least 3 times by the draft process and then again by the process of being signed as an UDFA. It’s still possible for develpoment to occur but the odds are not high enough to spend a signifcant amount of effort or money.

by Double DD on Sep 4, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

That’s the thing. If you’re not offered a reasonable pro contract, take an unreasonable one. Go play in the ECHL, or CHL, or UHL and try to get noticed there.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Sep 4, 2011 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Correct me if I'm Wrong

There’s a time limit on the scholarship offer.
I believe the player must start attending classes within a year of finishing junior.

So, your 185lb Forward has to weigh 3 or 4 years of paid University against $300 a week from the Timbuktu Dervishes and a pot of gold sitting at the end of a rainbow.

by Mr DeBakey on Sep 5, 2011 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

That scholarship is gone the minute you sign a pro contact of any kind.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

by dawgbone98 on Sep 5, 2011 10:09 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don’t think this is true. There have been players who have gone to the ECHL for a year and then gone to play CIS. I even vaguely recall a player who went to Europe for a year before coming back. The pro contract restriction depends on the league you sign in. I don’t know which leagues are allowed, but the ECHL is definitely fair game.

by Double DD on Sep 5, 2011 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

So, your 185lb Forward has to weigh 3 or 4 years of paid University against $300 a week from the Timbuktu Dervishes and a pot of gold sitting at the end of a rainbow.

obviously going to college is more reasonable. however, there are mounds of anecdotal evidence that general managers and coaches in all sports mistrust reasonable people, or people who have options, because they can always quit and do something else.

Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines

by Triumph44 on Sep 5, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

Outstanding article, Derek. As one who has enjoyed (and still enjoy) CIAU / CIS hockey and its high calibre of play since way back in the days Gregg, Primeau, Hindmarch and Spring were Golden Bear teammates (and became fellow Olympians), I have long puzzled my how few of these guys get an opportunity to advance. Yes they are second-tier prospects when they enter college hockey – undrafted second and third liners in CHL by and large – they nonetheless come in with plenty of high-level hockey experience and the best ones leave four or five years later with a whole lot more of the same. By then they are mature players in their mid-20s, but a significant number of hockey players continue to improve right through that age and beyond.

Agree there’s not enough reason for individual NHL clubs to hire full-time scouts, but some sort of scouting bureau by conference might have value.

Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Sep 4, 2011 10:44 AM MDT reply actions  

they nonetheless come in with plenty of high-level hockey experience and the best ones leave four or five years later with a whole lot more of the same.

This is what intrigues me. By the time they leave the CIS, they’ve got 20 years of hockey experience, and a college education. A team that would sign any of these kids has zero investment in them. Taking a flyer on them is a no-brainer.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Sep 4, 2011 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, by that point they’re not even kids, they’re men. The top ones are ready to help the minor league team now and potentially in position to help the big league squad – as “glue” players, mostly – within a short period of time. They’re not stars and won’t be, so will cost fairly small dollars for contract and more importantly, next to nothing for development. I’d be happy if the Oilers rolled the dice with a CIS grad like Hunter Tremblay at least once a year.

Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Sep 4, 2011 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’d be happy if the Oilers rolled the dice with a CIS grad like Hunter Tremblay at least once a year.

You know my thoughts on the matter – they should be shaking every tree in the forest in search of players. That means bringing in a bunch of CIS kids to development camp and signing the top scoring CIS player each year to a minor league deal and hope one turns into Darche or Ward.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Sep 4, 2011 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Especially with the elite program in the CIS right in the city itself… the Oilers should be all over this.

Montreal has a long term d-man prospect who came via CIS in Hamilton right now, who won the Bulldogs’ top d-man award last year: Frederic St. Denis. Probably not a call-up option, as Montreal has a lot of options on that front, but if he continues to improve (he’s 25 now), there’s a chance he could get a shot with some injuries.

I imagine we’ll have a few more happen in the next four years or so as more and more players seem to be choosing the scholarship route out of the WHL at least.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Sep 4, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to SB Nation's Edmonton Oilers community.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Ryan_2008_small
The Oilers Begin the Road to Rebuilding
Small
Oilers Next Head Coach
Small
Josh Anderson Scouting Report
Small
The 2012 NHL Draft and Combine - the Fanpost Almanac
Chambers-john_small
Risk Reward Radulov
Small
Joonas Korpisalo Scouting Report
2012-01-21-012338_small
Oilers Prospect Frans Tuohimaa Signs an Extension with Jokerit
Small
Ryan Murray - The Numbers
Chambers-john_small
Cody Hodgson, the game within the game, and inattention to detail
Small
Hong Kong Animators Draw NHL Violence

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

32 - 40 - 10

Lost 3

Clear Victory Standings

Western Conference

  1. Detroit Red Wings (27-11, .711)
  2. St. Louis Blues (24-10, .706)
  3. Vancouver Canucks (22-10, .688)
  4. Los Angeles Kings (18-11, .621)
  5. San Jose Sharks (18-13, .581)
  6. Phoenix Coyotes (20-15, .571)
  7. Nashville Predators (18-14, .563)
  8. Chicago Blackhawks (21-19, .525)
  9. Colorado Avalanche (16-19, .457)
  10. Dallas Stars (18-22, .450)
  11. Anaheim Ducks (14-19, .424)
  12. Edmonton Oilers (18-25, .419)
  13. Calgary Flames (13-21, .382)
  14. Columbus Blue Jackets (14-31, .311)
  15. Minnesota Wild (8-22,.267)

Eastern Conference

  1. Pittsburgh Penguins (31-13, .711)
  2. Boston Bruins (27-11, .711)
  3. New York Rangers (25-16, .610)
  4. Philadelphia Flyers (21-17, .553)
  5. New Jersey Devils (18-16, .529)
  6. Ottawa Senators (19-17, .528)
  7. Washington Capitals (20-19, .513)
  8. Montreal Canadiens (16-19, .457)
  9. Winnipeg Jets (15-19, .441)
  10. Buffalo Sabres (14-18, .438)
  11. Carolina Hurricanes (13-17, .433)
  12. Florida Panthers (14-19, .424)
  13. Toronto Maple Leafs (17-24, .415)
  14. New York Islanders (8-23, .258)
  15. Tampa Bay Lightning (10-30, .250)

Division Standings

  1. Central (79-58, .577)
  2. Atlantic (68-50, .576)
  3. Pacific (62-54, .534)
  4. Northeast (69-65, .515)
  5. Northwest (49-69, .415)
  6. Southeast (51-81, .386)


Managing Editor

Kurri_small Derek Zona

Laraque_horcoff_250x360_small Scott Reynolds

Columnists

Batman_small ryanbatty

0615pisani_small dawgbone98

Neal_small Neal Livingston

Mike_small Mike Wntrz

Small Alan Hull

Contributors

Newtwitter2_small Jonathan Willis

Mccurdycloseup_small Bruce McCurdy

Esaandstanley_small Benjamin Massey

Me_smyth_bobblehead3__1_of_1__small Lisa McRitchie

Small Triumph44

Gyi0062208469-bobrovsky_small Chase W

Small JaredL