Goaltending Problems
Ryan recently wrote about why he think the Oilers stand a good chance of finishing dead last in the Western Conference. In that article, he mentioned Nikolai Khabibulin as one of the big reasons why, figuring that Khabibuliln would likely be the starting goaltender for the Oilers to begin the year. If that's the way that Tom Renney decides to roll, it'll be a very poor decision. Nikolai Khabibulin is both very bad and very old, which makes him both extremely unlikely to rebound to league average this season, and almost certainly a player who isn't part of the future. Investing playing time in him is goofy.
But that's not the only problem the Oilers have between the pipes. Even if Renney (wisely) decides to sit Khabibulin down, can the Oilers really expect Devan Dubnyk to provide quality goaltending?
In order to help find an answer to that question, I went looking for players with a similar NHL performance to Dubnyk's in their 22 to 24 year-old seasons, and then looked to see how they performed at age 25. All of the comparables listed below started their NHL careers sometime in the last fifteen seasons, and never played more than five games in a season prior to their 22 year-old season. They also had a save percentage between .902 and .912 (to put them within shouting distance of Dubnyk's .907). Here are the results:
Mika Noronen isn't included in the average because the lockout forced him to play his 25 year-old season in Finland, but he flamed out of the NHL shortly thereafter, so taking him out actually inflates the Dubnyk comps a little bit. Still, I think the average performance is a fair expectation for Dubnyk coming into 2011-12: splitting duty between the pipes and performing below the league average. He might end up being a whole lot better (or worse) than that, but it makes for a decent line in the sand.
Looking over these names also suggests to me that we're more than a stone's throw away from knowing what kind of goaltender Dubnyk is going to be. Pascal Leclaire had the best 25 year-old season, so you might have expected that he'd become a top goalie. Instead, injuries and poor play have him out of the league. Tomas Vokoun, meanwhile, had a poor season at 25 in 2001-02, but he'd go on to become Nashville's starter in 2002-03 and never look back. Surprisingly, the statistic that looks to have the most predictive value when assessing the quality of these young goalies seems to be games played with (I'd argue) the four best goalies on the list coming in first through fourth in their 22-24 year-old seasons.
That last little tidbit isn't particularly encouraging with regard to Dubnyk, but I also don't think it's worth fretting over: there remains a very wide range of possible outcomes for the young netminder, which is why holding on to him for another season makes good sense. Still, a young goalie who could be anything from great to awful but is probably a bit below average, and an old goalie who's almost certainly going to be terrible makes for a pretty worrying tandem.
There were other options available. The Oilers could have bought out old man Khabibulin, and signed a guy like Ray Emery, a player young enough to be around for a while if he turns out to be good, likely to be better in the present, and very likely to be less expensive in terms of real dollars. That the club elected not to do this (or something similar), especially considering Khabibulin's legal problems, is simultaneously baffling and depressingly foreseeable.
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Excellent work Scott (as always)
Very sound analysis, strong enough to temper my enthusiasm for Dubnyk. I like how he looks in net, but the numbers say he’s not likely to keep improving his save percentage.
RATS!!!!!!!!!!!
This highlights all the more Tamby’s failure to bring in another Gerber-like back up, unless we can say Yann Danis is that kind of back up.
But we can’t count on those Oilers pro scouts to get it right, can we? ;)
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Aug 17, 2011 5:03 PM MDT reply actions
like how he looks in net, but the numbers say he’s not likely to keep improving his save percentage.
People have been saying that for years with DD. But for some strange reason, year over year, he gets better.
Everyone needs to remember that predicting goaltender development is a total crapshoot. Remember that one time where everyone thought Trevor Kidd was better than Martin Brodeur?
I think Dubnyk’s history of constant improvement causes him to come out ahead of the mean again next year, as well as his in season consistency. He obviously rode some percentages but regressing a little to a .909-.911 isn’t a terrible, earth shattering development.
The problem with our goaltending is much deeper. It has to do not only with the lack of immediate help in the net, but with the entire Oilers’ management’s “philosophy” regarding the goaltenders. This explains why we are in this “stuff” up to our chins.
“Goaltenders are very difficult to develop…predict…etc.” so lets not get ourselves into this and try to purchase a “star” from another club! And the Oilers end up with Khabi – the MVP in the Oilers lineup (for the opposition, that is). When I say that “there is no philosophy”, I mean the management did not do their job of 1) drafting them smarter (Pitton); 2) developing them smarter (Deslariers), 3) handling (retaining) them smarter (Gerber), and 3) getting them smarter from overseas (Fasth). 2011 draft had landed some interesting prospects (though I would prefer either of Gibsons or Hellberg). Yes, we have signed a couple plugs, but haven’t got a single bonafide goaltender to help us RIGHT NOW. Bunz and Roy have a long way to go to make it to the big club. And the rest are farther away yet. On the same note: Nashville and LA are the clubs that seem to have a working “goaltending philosophy and strategy”. Maybe we must learn from them?
by Roman_Pilgrim on Aug 17, 2011 6:17 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t:( It sounds way funnier than it is in real life.
by Roman_Pilgrim on Aug 18, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Found this ranking of goalie prospects (http://thehockeyguild.com/thegoalieguild/journal/top150aug2011.pdf). Oilers top prospect is number 45 (Roy) and dropping, with Bunz at 50, but rising. I would expect any team that has a clue about developing goalies to have at least one prosect in the top 30 (minimum), and ideally in to top 15.
This is the area of the development system I find still to be discouraging. Good goalies are worth their weight in gold.
And I agree with you that the Oilers should have taken a chance at a European or KHL goalie to compete with Khabby for the back up role (if they weren’t willing to buy him out). The team will bury Souray in the minors for being an ass, but won’t bury Khabby for being over the hill? Craziness!
I like what the Oilers have done with goaltending at the draft over the last few years because I don’t think it makes sense to spend high picks on goalies. As such, I’m not going to complain when the team doesn’t have any young goaltending studs. I’d like to see them bring in an undrafted FA or two to improve the young depth at the position, but that aside, I think they’re doing fine.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 18, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
That’s the thing: the “Scouting Bible” has it that you rarely draft defencemen high and take no goaltenders in the first two rounds unless there is a consensus that they are “special”. I get it: everyone belives in the same things. Then, how come that our list of actual goaltenders/prospects is so weak if compared to the most of the teams? I think that the Oilers’ scouting department has to upgrade their “goalie desk” or we are in…let’s say trouble. Not only for the draft, but travelling around Europe and finding potential gems, analyzing and projecting (only smartly) their growth. Once again look at LA and Nashville. To win you must have the attack Edmonton is about to put on ice, defense something like Nashville-lite and a quality goaltending on par with both LA and Nashville. And only then we can expect “miracles” to happen.
by Roman_Pilgrim on Aug 18, 2011 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Part of the problem with that list is that the “prospect” tag is attached only to guys who haven’t established themselves in the league. Dubnyk was taken in the same draft as Montoya (ranked #18) and Greiss (#22), but doesn’t appear on the list, even though he’s a better bet at this point than either of them (but obviously worse than some of the other guys not listed like Carey Price)
As for all teams doing the same thing, it’s not true. If we go back to 2005 (the year after the Oilers picked Dubnyk), nine teams (including the Oilers) haven’t spent any picks in the first two rounds on goalies.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 18, 2011 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Point taken. Though I wrote “believe in the same thing” not “doing the same thing”. What I meant was that the Oilers would better move goaltending higher on their priority list (like they have done it with defense already). They have to scout colleges and European clubs better, re-evaluate the draft rejects (like Conz), keep the “keepers”, like Gerber. I suppose, when all the pieces are ready for you to become a contender for the Cup, only then you aquire a “star” goaltender. Even in this case, once you get this option, would you go for Khabi or for Vokoun?
by Roman_Pilgrim on Aug 18, 2011 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions
Only 8 of the top 30 on that list were drafted in the first 2 rounds. That’s 22 open slots for later round picks and free agent finds in a 30 team league and the Oilers placed… wait for it…. none. Not even close.
Its okay to draft later if your goalie scouts have a track record of finding later round gems or FAs (see Nashville), but when the vast majority of teams are drafting in the same ballpark you are and seem to be getting better prospects than it should be an area of concern.
Technically there are 60 spots for goaltenders.
As an aside, I think it’s important to state that looking at it from a 1 year perspective is a little unfair.
For instance in 05-06 the Oilers ran with 3 goaltenders who fit the criteria precisely.
In fact, for several years the Oilers employed at least one goaltender that was found by means other than a top 2 round pick.
That changed when they acquired Garon and then Khabibulin.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
Just to further clarify this, even going with your number of 30 positions available and 22 possible teams, only the following went with a goaltender that they drafted after the 2nd round or signed as a free agent from Europe:
Minnesota – Backstrom
Columbus – Mason
Los Angeles – Quick
Nashville – Rinne
Anaheim – Hiller
Ottawa – Elliot
Rangers – Lundqvist
Buffalo – Miller
Philadelphia – Bobrovsky
And from that list, we can now scratch Philly and Ottawa off.
That’s 7 NHL teams who developed their goaltending from their own late pick or as an unsigned free agent.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
I was referring to the top 150 goalie prospect list. Scott’s assertion is the Oilers shouldn’t draft goalies in the first two rounds because its a bad bet. I don’t think that’s the point. 22 of the top 30 goalies on that list were drafted after the first 2 rounds or plucked as free agents. NONE of those prospects are Oiler property. So, the Oilers don’t draft the ‘safer’ bets, and it would seem relative to thier peers, don’t do as well in drafting later round prospects or finding quality free agent prospects. That’s not to say this is the definitive list, but it certainly was discouraging.
I’ll restate that I think the list is mostly junk since all the best young goalies aren’t included by virtue of their not being prospects.
With that out of the way, the Oilers drafted three goalies from 2005-2010. Pitton didn’t work out. There are two players drafted behind Roy in 2009 ahead of him on that list. Bunz hasn’t been passed by anybody. Both goalies would seem to still have a chance, or at least, I’m not writing them off as yet. I don’t see why “Bryan Pitton didn’t work out” means “We suck at drafting goalies”. And in the end, the expectation on three late picks is zero NHL goalies, so even if the other two don’t work, I’m not going to get too worried. Drafting in the later rounds successfully requires a lot of luck, so I won’t get too torn up on missing a few times in a row.
In terms of FA signings, I do think it makes sense to bring in some of the younger FA goalies available, which the Oilers haven’t done as yet. We’ll see if they do so in the future.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 18, 2011 5:53 PM MDT up reply actions
I am not sure how we can say they are good at drafting goalies if we don’t draft any either. But we can note that the Oilers had opportunities on a number of the goalies ahead of Roy on the list, would not have had to spend much (in terms of later round picks) or anything (FAs) and didn’t do it, to the benefit of the competition. Missing opportunities should be an indication of poor drafting as much as drafting guys who bust out.
How does it matter whether we are good at drafting goalies or not? Odds are that none of them would be even as good as Jose Theodore who was signed fr around 1 million.
I think organisation’s goaltending prospect depth is an overrated concept when goalies like Halak can be had for a low risk trade
(Not going to discuss the Varlamov trade)
Success is not a goal..its a byproduct
Count me among those who are concerned.
by Roman_Pilgrim on Aug 18, 2011 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions
i thinks the oilers should give Khabibulin a chance to see if he can bounce back from that awful season then give Dubnyk sheltered minites by doing a 50/50 split with Khabibulin
Through injury and poor play, Khabibulin has earned seventeen wins in two seasons in Edmonton. That’s an average of about eight wins a season.
If Khabibulin is to play, the best thing we can hope for is mediocrity. Nine Oiler goals would also help.
Lead Writer for Oil On Whyte - An Edmonton Oilers Blog
I read somewhere a scout saying Dubnyk was the best goalie in the WHL because he was getting shelled each game and took it. He is getting shelled on the Oilers. That is likely why they took a first on him.
Nobody knows, but he has always had to take heat, and I would be surprised if that as he matures he would start to decline, instead of get better, especially if the Oilers get better. He is not out of his element, is at home, and his team is a team that has hope. I say Dub will be a steady if unspectacular goalie, but really, only Thomas is a spectacular goalie right now, and he is an anomaly.
Khabi will be dealt with either this year or next, and let’s hope Bunz or one of the others gets hot.
Everyone says predicting goalie progression is witchcraft.
I’d interested to hear what the top multiple regression is that affects a goalies save %.
What kind of R-squared do people come up with and how many variables, and what are the best variables that predict it. Or do the regressions never make any sense and that is why it’s Witchcraft???
by One_Roy_Save_On_The_Calendar on Aug 18, 2011 12:27 AM MDT reply actions

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