Ryan Smyth and Chris Pronger - Not so different?
by book!e on Jun 27, 2011 10:05 AM MDT
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PrintEditor's Note: The following is a FanPost by a regular commenter here at The Copper & Blue. The views contained in this FanPost do not necessarily reflect the views of management.
Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you ?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal
Bob Dylan was warning people to be careful about judging others because we are not always so far from our own 'Fall from Grace' and we could find ourselves in the situation that we are judging other for.
It kind of feels a bit like that today as we think about the Pronger and Smyth situations.
For many Oiler fans, the act of Chris Pronger in requesting to be traded from Edmonton was unforgivable. The man signed a contract in good faith, but decided part way through that he didn't like the terms. He put the Oilers in a difficult place because he was a self centered jerk. Rumours were started about why he was leaving (many of them involving relationship scandals). People ranted and raved and the hate was thick accross the Oilogosphere.
Now we see a situation where someone we deeply respect has done something similar and the expressions of joy are equally thick across the Oilogosphere.
Should we be questioning our previous judgments here?
More after the jump...
The facts as we know them are as follows
- Pronger asked to be traded one year into a five year contract with the team he signed for. Smyth asked to be traded at the end of the fourth year of a five year contract
- Both asked for 'Family Reasons'. We don't know the details behind Smyth's request, wheras it is reasonable to assume that Pronger's wife and perhaps family simply was not happy being in Edmonton, away from her family and in a city without the amenities she was used to.
- Both asked 'quetly' and it appears that in both cases, it was the team who leaked the request. (EDIT - Some commenters have since noted that Pronger's camp did leak the demand to Al Strachan who wrote a substantial article on it - so I stand corrected on this)
- Pronger had been traded for by the Oilers, Smyth had been traded for by the LA kings - both went to their destinations willingly (Smyth had a No Trade Clause and could have remained in Colorado where he signed his 5 year deal).
- Pronger was willing to go to a handful of destinations giving Lowe options in trading him. Smyth wanted to go to a very small number of destinations and perhaps only Edmonton. This greatly handcuffed Lombardi in getting something back in the trade.
- Both are well paid professionals and should have known what they were doing when signing a contract.
- Pronger is a villain and Smyth is a hero ;)
- Pronger was a key asset of the Oilers, Smyth is somewhat marginal and his cap hit is probably too big for what he brings to LA, so moving him is not too painful for them.
- Pronger apparently 'demanded' a trade while we are not sure how 'demand' oriented Smyth's request was. Bob McKenzie suggested that Smyth "indicated to the Kings that his preference would be to play next season in Edmonton if a trade can be worked out.". We don't know if Smyth would have happily played out his contract in LA if Lombardi were to indicate that the Kings were unable to get value for him. Below is the primary statement from Lombardi.
"I think it’s pretty well-documented, in terms of what I’m doing here. This has kind of evolved over the last two months, actually. When Ryan asked to be moved, at first I was really troubled. Ryan, in our first 40 games last year I thought he was one of our better players. He kind of tailed off a little and then, in the playoffs, was one of our best players. And certainly, left wing, it’s not one of our strongest positions. So first off, my reaction was, `No way,’ and I couldn’t figure out why, because I think Ryan had adapted well. So I talked to him a couple times, and he was very clear that it had nothing to do with hockey, that it was strictly for his family, that he wanted to go home. I thought about it (for) a week or so and talked to his agent and said, `If it’s a hockey issue, I would not approve of this, because if it’s coaching, the power play, his ice time, who he’s playing with, these are things that we will work through.’ But if it’s a personal thing, a family issue, it’s hard to argue with that and have a player that’s not going to be happy. So I resigned myself. He asked to go back closer to home, and I’ve primarily dealt with three teams, and particularly two right now. This kind of hit the front burner last week, in terms of coming out publicly, because of the predicament I was in. I was talking to other teams about getting a left winger if Ryan goes, and teams say, `Why is he going?’ and I had to explain it to them. I tried to move this along because I have to replace him. I’m not in a great position here. We’re just going to have to adapt. I’ve talked to one team a number of times, and they’ve been very forthright in trying to piece it together. I hope to have that wrapped up here in a day or two. Maybe he changes his mind now that Mike Richards is in our lineup, I don’t know, but it’s an awkward situation. I’ve never had this before. It’s nothing I’ve certainly ever planned on. I think his contract is very favorable, in terms of the cash and (it being) the last year, but we’ve got to adjust to it. So that’s kind of the soap opera that’s been going on for a month and a half. It just kind of broke last week."
So, how different are the situations? Do a lot of Edmonton fans feel the need to look in the mirror and challenge their previous judgments or are they happy ignoring the similarities and simply painting Smyth a Hero and Pronger a Villain. This happens a lot in society, painting other religions as laughable (ha ha, the world is on the back of turtle) while revering our own (of course God made women from the rib of Adam), judging conflicts from a very self centered point of view, etc.
I, for one, never felt any ill will towards Pronger about the trade request. His wife was unhappy (I have a wife - keeping her happy is important!), he asked quietly and gave the Oilers options. The NHL does not give a good 'out' to players who are locked into contracts (other than not showing up to play and having the contract broken because of it). I don't believe that you can 'hold' someone in a city against their will. It sucks that Lowe blew it and got a poor return, but Pronger gave him a good opportunity to get a good return.
Smyth may have told Lombardi that he would continue to play in LA if a deal could not be worked out. Perhaps this is the difference, but still, its a very similar situation and if you can find sympathy for Smyth, I think you need to find sympathy and forgiveness for Pronger.
I still have a lot of 'fan hate' for Pronger and a lot of 'fan love' for Smyth and there are other things that I judge the nature of their character on (Pronger often sounds like a real jerk in interviews for example). It's fun to hate villains and revere our heros, but deep down, I know that both are professionals going about their careers and I respect them both for their accomplishments.
What say you Edmonton fans?
Note - David Staples has a post about this issue now at the Cult of Hockey. There are some good quotes from Kings fans that echo those of Oiler fans in the Pronger situation.
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I see your point. There are a lot of similarities. But there are 2 main differences:
1. Pronger leaving edmonton was a huge rep disaster for the organization
2. He went public with his request.
Furthermore Pronger : Oilers >>>> Smyth to Kings. In fact him leaving actually helps them as they can spend the money/cap hit on other various players.
If it was Doughty who said he wants to leave LA, that would have been more hand in had with Pronger demanding a trade.
Success is not a goal..its a byproduct
It was Lowe who went public by confirming very soft rumours (i.e. nothing behind them such as a Mckenzie Tweet – or Morse code pigeon or whatever we used in those days).
Strachan came out with a full page article about how Pronger “did his time” in Edmonton and wanted to move on to somewhere better.
Pronger may not have come out and said it in a press conference, but his camp definitely planted the seed.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
Ok, fair enough, I didn’t remember the Strachan article – it does make a big difference if the player leaks the request and not the agent. The tone of the request/demand may also have been different. I certainly agree that the overall character of the two players is different and that its important to take that into account.
Turtle
What? The planet isn’t riding on the back of a giant turtle? Well, actually on the top of four giant elephants on top of a giant turtle? How dare you spread such vile!
Smyth: requesting a trade back to the city he lived in for years, where his family is.
Pronger: requesting a trade to a handful of select, marquee cities because his bitchy trust-fund, alien-orange wife couldn’t handle living in a city where she couldn’t hobnob with celebs and eat line-caught tuna and Kobe beef at every meal.
Yeah, totally the same thing.
Pronger signed a contract to play in a city he labelled “unlivable” in the Strachan article less than a year later.
Smyth signed a contract with the Colorado Avalanche, and had it traded to a city and an organization he has not said an unkind word about.
Pronger’s “family situation” reflected values that I would like to think most of us would not agree with, whereas Smytty’s “family situation” appears on the surface, at least, to reflect much more altruistic values.
Pronger’s lifestyle choices lead to his downfall in this city, and yet he continues to trash talk about this city to anyone who will listen, essentially blaming us for his actions.
Although it is unclear of the exact circumstances surrounding Smytty’s trade request, I doubt he ever trash talks L.A. (who would believe him anyway?).
Pronger was too good for Edmonton. Smytty is just not an L.A. kind of guy. – Big difference there.
Like others, I disagree with some of the “facts” in the article.
1) Pronger’s camp leaked the trade demand. NOT the Oilers. The Kings leaked the trade demand, NOT Smyth. (The first Pronger rumours in Toronto media were well before the regular season ended).
2) Pronger signed his contract in Edmonton. Smyth with Colorado.
3) We don’t know what “unofficial” promises Lombardi made to Smyth when he waived this no trade to go from Colorado to LA
4) Unlike Smyth, Pronger gave Lowe no time to make a deal before going public.
1) I have added a comment updating the ‘who leaked it’ bit.
2) Sure, Pronger was traded to the Oilers and then, as an agreed upon part of the trade, signed an extended contract. In both cases, the player was in control of their destiny and in both cases the teams that they went to gave up something for them – though in LA’s case, the cost was fairly minimal. It was not a case of a player being shipped somewhere totally against their will.
3) There are a lot of things we don’t know – we could go on for some time.
4) More importantly, Smyth may have been willing to continue playing in LA if a deal could not be made – Pronger was not.
In the end, both asked to be traded from their team because their families didn’t like the living conditions of the city that they were in. I don’t see the sense in vilifying either of them for that particular decision. Lowe had the opportunity to get good value for Pronger and Pronger was willing to go to multiple locations. LA didn’t have as good of an opportunity because Smyth really wanted to be in Edmonton, but they didn’t pay much for him.
At the end of it, I don’t like Pronger and I really like Smyth, but in my mind both made decisions that are part of the ‘business side of hockey’ and business is business – they followed the rules set out by the league that places a great deal of power in the hands of established players to direct their own careers.
I’m not sure about point 4 I thought Pronger went to Lowe well before the trade deadline (I am thinking in January). After the trade, there was lots of speculation that Lowe was hoping the stuff with Pronger would blow over after a long playoff run and was hoping to bury the issue without acting on it. I don’t know if this was all hearsay but I thought it was based on some quotes from Lowe.
by till_horcoff_is_coach on Jun 27, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions
My main concern with this article is that it doesn’t specify what kind of pie is linked to option four. I mean, blueberry pie, raspberry pie, for sure. That’s my pick. But if its strawberry and rhubarb or – god forbid – pumpkin pie then I’d have to label Smyth as putting the team he signed a contract with in a very bad situation – qualitatively similar to what Pronger did but quantitatively less of a blow to them.
by Yeti# on Jun 27, 2011 12:09 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
However key a player he may have been, I didn’t care for Pronger when he played for Edmonton. I know, it’s not all about being a nice guy, but what do I look like? A Canucks fan?
Smyth asked for a trade, but said that if it couldn’t happen, he would play in LA next year. Smyth didn’t present this as “I ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TRADED TO EDMONTON”. He presented it as "Hey Dean-o, I was wondering, could you trade me back to Edmonton? If you can’t, that’s fine, I understand, but I’d appreciate it if you could do me that favor. Totally different, and there’s nothing at all wrong with what Smyth did.
Stupid post.
http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.
In the interview with Smyth on the Oilers site, the phrase ‘trade demand’ was used a few times and Smyth did nothing to suggest that it was not a trade demand. Where is your sources that this was a casual ‘Hey Dean-o" comment as you phrased it. Lombardi certainly didn’t react like a GM with lots of options in the situation.
There are some differences between the two situations and I have noted those. Perhaps these are enough to make the situations very different or perhaps they are not – I have offered up a poll and there is this comments section for people to make their arguments (or their emotional rants if they prefer)
Keep in mind, I am not being critical of Smyth – I think what he did was fine, I also think that what Pronger did was fine. Hockey is a business as well as a game and there are rules in the CBA, neither of them broke the rules. I
At the very least, I see nothing ‘stupid’ about raising the comparison as a question.
Don’t forget the fact that they acquired Mike Richards and are clearing cap space to make a run at Brad Richards and other UFAs.
Smyth did them a favour but do you demonize him for holding to his NTC? It’s his right.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions
What part of “I think what Smyth did was fine” do you consider ‘demonizing him. I don’t have a problem when players ask to be traded. I also don’t have a problem when a player makes use of their NTC or NMC – It is their right to do so. GM’s are somewhat foolish to hand out NTC’s and NMC’s. Hockey is a business and the current CBA gives experienced NHLers a lot of control in their career. I don’t have a problem when they use those rights, whether it is to leave Edmonton or come to Edmonton – it is their right to do so. It was Pronger’s right to do so and it is Smyth’s right to do so.
by book!e on Jun 27, 2011 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand the premise of re-evaluating our “fan-hate” for Pronger based on the parallels between the two situations you believe have been drawn, and for which many are indeed parallel.
However, I don’t think what Pronger did was fine. It’s one thing to criticize Holmgren for trading away a guy less than a year into a decade plus contract extension, it’s another to ask for a trade one year into your own 6 (is it 6?) year contract, especially if it’s your own choice to play in that city. These decisions by Pronger and by Nylander are dishonorable and selfish. Personal reasons or not, I respect Pronger’s request but I don’t have to agree with the reasons.
Smyth’s request was along the same lines. You may argue that you can’t hold a guy in a city against their wishes but that’s not true. Just because there’s a trade demand doesn’t mean that it has to be respected. It is a business after all.
But in this case (and as in any case) it should be respected, and was. The main difference is that Pronger made his choice and Smyth never really had one. I’m not sure when his NTC kicked in: whether it was before his trade from Colorado or after it. Either way, his choice was never originally to play in New York or Los Angeles. Hell, even Colorado. His choice was Edmonton.
It’s true that trade requests often handcuff the GM’s, but what I don’t understand is why Lombardi decided to leak everything to the media right off the bat.
That’s like handcuffing yourself.
And for the record, I read that you were fine with Smyth’s request.
However, what I am not fine with is that you consider Smyth and Pronger’s situations to be almost the same. They have some parallels, but tenuous ones at best.
If there is a place to request changes/trades/whatever or divulge that infomration, it’s not in the media.
Souray learned his lesson. Did Lombardi?
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions
It appears that we have two conversations going – the one above and the one below – sorry about that. I didn’t realize that both comments were yours when I responded below.
I would argue that the similarities are not that tenuous and I am not arguing that there are no differences. In fact, I fully accept that there are differences. For me, the differences are not important because the key principal is acceptable. Players have the right to use their contracts, the CBA, and their right to not show up to camp. In either case, the GMs and owners could have told the player to report to camp and to play for the team. They all agreed to those rules and I don’t see a problem with them using the rules as they see fit.
The conversations are slightly different (like the Smyth and Pronger situations :-P) so I will keep them both up.
Pronger finished one year in his contract in Edmonton.
Smyth has one year left in his contract.
Pronger had no NTC, and could not control what team he went to.
Smyth had a NTC, and shot down the Calgary trade.
Lombardi acquired Richards, and created his own cap problems.
Tambellini was forced to help Lombardi’s cap problems best he could in order to keep the deal going.
Pronger did not play ball with the media when he left town.
Smyth did all he could.
I’m beating a dead horse because I know you said you’re fine with either case but, Pronger is one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, but my answer is still no to whether I think the situations are more than tenuously, or at least cosmetically comparable.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions
:-)
:-)
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Big difference
Smyth never asked to be traded to be New York or Los Angeles. He signed on to play in Edmonton and Colorado.
Pronger signed on to play in Edmonton, and when the writing was on the wall that some of the other UFAs would not resign (give or take a couple rumours about him being true or untrue) he booked it as soon as he could.
How can you even compare these two situations?
Smyth did Lombardi a favour with his cap situation. Lombardi may not have had any control over which team he went to, but that’s the nature of a NTC. When you hand those out you have to deal with the player’s requests.
Pronger didn’t have a no-trade, and he had high demands of management.
Contrast. Contrast. Contrast.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
Both asked to be traded from situations they agreed to put themselves into. I think it is viable to compare the two situations and pose the question as to whether or not the situations are similar. I actually don’t see a problem with what either of them did.
My argument is that both followed the rules and both acted within their rights and as such – neither of them did anything wrong.
The debates about whether either of them did something wrong come down to the normative standards that we are judging them against. Given that this is not a moral issue, i don’t see any relevant norms outside of the legal structure that all of the individuals (teams, GMs, players, etc.) have agreed to.
Some people however, feel that there are norms of behaviour that Chris Pronger broke (norms meaning the collectively held informal cultural standards of society) that Ryan Smyth did not. That’s fine, you and others are free to believe that what Pronger did was far worse than what Smyth did. I think that neither of them did nothing wrong. I also may hold different beliefs that others about other ‘moral’ issues such as Gay marriage, holding the door open for people behind me, and that young people should or should not give up their seat on a bus for an elderly person.
Certainly there are more mores (what a sentence) than laws that govern the behaviour concerning these two “parallel” situations but if sports was all business then we wouldn’t have anything to talk about. In fact, our blogs wouldn’t exist.
But the public perception IS important.
Pronger’s timing was impeccably bad and his refusal to give a reason (his right of course) smacked of wrongdoing, whether or not that part was made up by angry fans bent on spreading rumours. Some people burn cars and smash stores. Some people spread rumours. Neither is a greater or lesser evil. But both are pretty useless, it’s true.
In this case the more governs not what we would do as a society but as hockey fans. Honour might be a dying word but what Pronger did could be considered dishonorable.
Could Smyth’s actions be considered dishonorable as well? This is up to the perception of Los Angeles Kings fans, and their local culture (which is obviously not that different than ours). Smyth did everything he could to control the public perception – whereas Lombardi did everything he could to demonize Smyth in the media by leaking every step of the negotiations.
If LA Kings want to blame someone for Lombardi getting a crappy deal in the trade, they should blame Lombardi himself.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Lombardi leaked the deal because he wanted to force Edmonton into the deal and clear the cap space I suspect – that or he just couldn’t consider to keep Smyth in LA if Smyth wasn’t happy and as such he wanted to force the deal with Edmonton.
Exactly. Lombardi acquired Richards and the teams exchanged Penner and Smyth and some magic beans. Kevin Lowe never replaced Pronger (unless Smid is considered that guy somehow).
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Smyth chose to play in Colorado when he signed there, and his no-trade clause was active there, so yes, he also chose to play in Los Angeles. Pronger wanted out of Edmonton long before “the writing was on the wall that some of the other UFAs would not re-sign”. In fact, he had already expressed reservations about staying in Edmonton in January because his wife was unhappy there, which sounds awfully similar to Smyth’s reasoning. I have a lot of respect for a guy who will stand up for his marriage, which is basically what Pronger did, though I’ll happily concede that the way he did so was a bit (okay, a lot) ham-fisted. Smyth handled the actual trade part better, but the “trade demand” part is pretty much the same.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 27, 2011 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions
That’s fine, but Smyth played through is contract to the last year and “sucked it up” til then.
Pronger has every right to suggest a trade on behalf of his wife.
But whereas Pronger ham-fisted Lowe’s trade, Smyth did not ham-fist his own trade.
That was Lombardi’s fault.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t think the whole last year / first year thing matters much. But other than that, I think we’re pretty much on the same page: nothing wrong with requesting a trade in either case, but Smyth was a lot more graceful in seeing it through.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 27, 2011 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, it does.
Most free agents have a choice to not waive and leave via free agency or have a chance to waive when they get what they want.
Brad Richards didn’t waive. Mats Sundin didn’t waive.
Ryan Smyth waived. Robyn Regehr waived.
I’ve never been to LA but I don’t know if gradually getting bored of LA is a great suggestion. Smytty said he wants his kids to go to school in Canada. At least in his interview.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I’m guessing this is a response to Sum?
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 27, 2011 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions
It’s a response to both rolled into one. :-P
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Jun 27, 2011 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Don’t go to LA – not if sitting in traffic for hours every day is your idea of fun. And breathing in pollution. :)
GO SHARKS!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin (see profile for more info on this quote)
As far as I see it the Pronger one seems way worse because he was barely a year into a five year contract, he was in the middle of his prime as a player, and he had just led the team to game seven of the Stanley Cup finals. I can’t find any scenario where that adds up to “well THIS doesn’t seem like it’s a good fit”.
Where as Smyth is in the twilight of his career, gave the Kings a couple decent seasons, has an albatross of a cap hit (for a contender like the Kings) and likely would have left for nothing next season after his contract expired.
But I will agree, the optics of the “demand” part do seem pretty similar. In conclusion Smytty is still one the best dudes on the planet and Pronger is still an ass.
Pronger’s case was more reasonable to me.
Both players discovered that their environments weren’t suitable for their family. Ultimately, there’s no crystal ball for that. So what’s worse, having to tough it out for four more unwanted years in Edmonton, or one more unwanted year in California? Pronger also offered multiple destinations and managed to find personal success. Smyth offered one option and voluntarily ruined his own playoff chances.
I’m glad to have Smyth back, but nothing he’s done this summer makes any sense to me. But I’m also an emotional void who would be on the first plane out of Edmonton if I could afford it.
Why for o little?
I’m curious to know why Smyth was acquired for so little. Was it a non movement clause and he only wanted Edmonton?
That’s exactly right. Plus, the market for a guy whose cap hit outpaces his value isn’t exactly great.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 28, 2011 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions
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