Is Even Strength Scoring More Important?
One of my frustrations in talking about Ryan Nugent-Hopkins with some of his supporters is that they perceive one of the big knocks on him to be a lack of size. So when Nugent-Hopkins showed up to the combine with eight extra pounds of meat on his bones, it was considered something of a coup. Now, maybe I'm different than most folks, but Nugent-Hopkins' size has never been a major concern for me. Size isn't exactly an asset, but it's not a major drawback either. Of course, that's not to say that I haven't found faults!
The two big questions about Nugent-Hopkins for me are his poor relative plus-minus and his lack of even strength scoring compared to the other forwards at the top of his draft class. Both, it seems to me, are significant issues. But Choppystride made a great comment in a thread a couple of days ago that really made me think:
Has there been any analyses done for the entire CHL over a sufficiently long period (say >= 10 years) that shows how a prospect’s draft year EV-vs-PP production affects his performance as an NHLer, or that it even matters at all?
Excellent question! To my knowledge, such a study has not been done, and the belief that EV scoring is a better predictor than overall scoring comes mostly from the sense that a player's ability to perform at even strength is extremely important, and from Tyler's brief look back on the Rob Schremp experience. Now, I won't be going back quite ten years, but after the jump I'll take a stab at the question for forwards drafted in the first round out of the OHL and WHL from 1999 to 2006.
To answer some preliminary questions, I would love to have included the QMJHL in the study, but they don't have the historical data available on their website. If it is made available at a later date, I'll be sure to include it in an update. I've chosen the years 1999 to 2006 because I wanted to make sure that we were talking about reasonably current trends, and going back much further takes us well outside of the thirty-team NHL. Finally, I chose to look at players drafted in the first round because it seems to me that the results may differ significantly between players drafted in the first round and players drafted in some of the later rounds. This gives us a sample of fifty-one players, which isn't huge, but it's not bad either.
In the chart below, I've cheated a little bit and used non-power play points as a proxy for even strength points because it's much easier to collect that data. I've used regular season data only for the same reason. The CHL data always comes from the player's draft year, and the NHL data is always career regular season results. Let's take a look:
With Pavel Brendl and Denis Shvidki at the very top of the list, we can already see that this isn't going to be perfect. Of course, if we include power play points in the total, the only difference is Bryan Little moving into second spot and forcing Shvidki into third. So yeah... not perfect! So what happens if we chart CHL points in a player's draft year against career NHL points? Well, I've done that once before, and found that there was a mid-to-low positive correlation (Pearson's r = 0.36), but that was with data from the QMJHL included. How does taking out the Quebec league impact the results?
Not much at all. The correlation stays pretty much the same (Pearson's r = 0.36), which isn't too surprising (only eleven QMJHL forwards qualified), but it's still good to know. So does the correlation get stronger if we look at just non-power play points?
Well, no. No it doesn't. In fact, the correlation between CHL non-power play points per game and NHL points per game is (marginally) lower than plain old CHL points per game (Pearson's r = 0.35). This result was a little bit surprising to me, but it probably shouldn't have been. Of course, this isn't to say that even strength production is irrelevant, and in fact, and all else being equal, I'd prefer the player who has scored more at even strength. Why? Let's take a look at the correlation between CHL power play points per game and NHL points per game:
The correlation between CHL power play points per game and NHL points per game is much weaker (Pearson's r = 0.17), but remains positive. So although non-power play points are a better predictor than power play points, I feel comfortable saying that, when it comes to forwards at the top of the draft, I've been overvaluing even strength scoring a little bit. As such, even though Ryan Nugent-Hopkins still isn't my first choice, I'm a lot more comfortable with the Oilers calling his name first today than I was on the weekend.
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Great work.
One thing that just makes me uncomfortable about one-year evaluations in general is the level of variance – Hopkins’ and the Rebels could be shooting way above average on the power play and below average at even strength. Taking one year and calling it anything close to a ‘true’ rate seems mistaken to me.
The problem, of course, is that when these guys are drafted a lot of them have only spent one year in the CHL or took a giant step forward. Nevertheless, more consistency from 2009-10 to 2010-11 is one of the reasons that I like Couturier and Nugent-Hopkins over Huberdeau and Strome.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 14, 2011 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
right, but then we get into the problem of birthdates – couturier was born december 92, nugent-hopkins april 93, huberdeau june 93, and strome july 93. does being six months older still matter?
Well, that’s the price you pay for more information. I don’t think that Nugent-Hopkins and Couturier are clearly going to be better players, but I do think that they’re clearly safer picks.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 14, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions
If you had to do this manually, I understand and the following is moot.
Why didn’t you run all forwards from the O and W in that time period?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I did need to do it manually, but I do still plan on doing the rest of the forwards in a separate post. I suspect that the results might be quite different. You’re not getting the same kind of talent in the later rounds, so I suspect that EV scoring will be more important.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 14, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Ahhh, you thunder-stealer.
And you might be better off asking someone to script it for you.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
This is simply outstanding work, Scott. All season I’ve been reading about this EVP/PPP divide with an uneasy feeling that we are insufficiently grounded in real analysis while being strung along by a helium balloon full of assumptions. My own no-doubt-faulty assumption has been that on balance I would prefer a player have more even-strength points, but that PP points still have significant value and it’s a huge overreaction to discount them or even (in some extreme cases) treat them like they are some sort of negative. Your findings of correlations of 0.35 and 0.17 respectively seem eminently reasonable. Even strength scoring = more important ≠ all-important.
Agree with triumph44 that individual point totals will be riddled with variance even when considered holistically let alone on a reductionist basis.
Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.
- Albert Einstein
I’m not sure as to the point that you’re making here unless you just want to re-emphasize the fact that the correlations are generally not that strong.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 14, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Traktor just doesn’t like statistics.
by melancholyculkin on Jun 14, 2011 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions
The fact to go along with this too, is RNH has all the intangables to be a great player, the only knock is his lack of EV scoring yet when scouts talk about his skill there are no knocks so I think that is more important. The thing with shremp is he had a bad attitude and a poor skater so that more then anything is probably why his stats didn’t translate to the NHL.
Schremp is also a particularly extreme case. Of all of the players listed here, he had the highest percentage of his points come on the power play (63%). Only two other players were over 55% (although Little and Perry have both done well in the NHL).
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 15, 2011 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions

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