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Forwards at the Draft

With the NHL draft coming up in just a few short weeks, I thought it might be fun to start looking a little bit more at some of the players that could be available to the Oilers with the 19th overall pick. In that I haven't seen many of these players actually play, I decided that a nice place to start would be to look at a few of the major lists and then compare those players statistically. After the jump I'll run the top 15 forwards according to the Central Scouting Bureau, International Scouting Services, and The Hockey News through Gabriel Desjardins' NHL equivalencies, and talk a bit about what comes out on the other side.

Star-divide

So first up, here's the list, although I should note that Central Scouting actually has two lists, one for Europeans, and another for North Americans. I chose to use the top fifteen North Americans and the top three Europeans. The NHLE numbers are expressed in points per game and include the combined regular season and playoff results, which I know isn't really standard, but I like including playoff results. These are also the player's ranking among just the forwards, not his overall ranking, so some of these players will certainly be available to the Oilers 19th overall:

Top_15_medium

There are some interesting things here. First off, Mika Zibanejad and Joel Armia don't do so well by the numbers, but they've also been playing more limited minutes in professional leagues. To my mind, understanding where those two fit among the rest is one place that the scouts will really earn their money since - in case you haven't been paying attention to Derek's braying - Mika Zibanejad is probably not the 20th best forward available even if he does appear in 20th place on the list above.

At the top of the draft, the five forwards discussed most often are Ryan Strome, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Gabriel Landeskog, Jonathan Huberdeau, and Sean Couturier. Four of those players are extremely close on the chart above, but one lags well behind, and yet Gabriel Landeskog doesn't rank any lower than fourth. I think Landeskog will be a good player, but the lack of offensive upside is, to me, a real concern. At the other end we have Ryan Strome, who has the second best NHLE but ranks no higher than 5th. Once we add in the defensemen, Strome could easily fall to 8th or lower in this draft, and at that point, he would seem to be an absolute steal.

Other prospects of interest to me are Matthew Puempel and Ty Rattie, who despite  providing great offense are only on one top 15, and Rocco Grimaldi who makes it into a top 15 despite providing less offense than a lot of prospects and standing just 5'6''. I should also note that Shane Prince doesn't make a single list despite an NHLE of .431, which is just shy of that very top group.

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Landeskog’s power play numbers do him in. Far and away the lowest power play points per game of anyone at the top of the draft.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jun 12, 2011 6:28 PM MDT reply actions  

I wonder what the list would look like if you could normalize for ice time?

by gcw_rocks on Jun 12, 2011 7:03 PM MDT reply actions  

But we dont have ice time so moot point. Also all of them are top forwards on their respective teams so I dont know if there would be much shuffling

Success is not a goal..its a byproduct

by SumOil on Jun 12, 2011 11:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Just thinking out loud. But the Europeans might benefit significantly if they are playing limited minutes (because they are playing against men) when North American kids are playing 25-30 minutes.

by gcw_rocks on Jun 13, 2011 7:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

Actually now that I think about it, all of the Pro leagues should have ice time, should they not? It wouldn’t be that hard to run new equivalency numbers to get NHLE P/60 numbers for like the SEL and KHL. Unfortunately for a lot of these kids it will be small sample sizes.

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by mindmasher on Jun 13, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

I knw that SEL keeps track of TOI but i think it is total time and not ES/PP .
On emight have to look through individual games for that

Success is not a goal..its a byproduct

by SumOil on Jun 13, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Prince plays on a powerhouse line in the Ottawa with Toffoli and Martindale, two of the top scorers in the the league. Similarly, Phillips and Jurco get marked down in terms of production because they play with Huberdeau on a dominant line on a Memorial Cup wining Saint John team.

The guy that keeps standing out whenever I run numbers like this is Puempel. He’s put up solid numbers for two straight years on a weak Peterbough team, yet is in the latter part of the 1st round on most lists.

by Stephan Cooper on Jun 12, 2011 10:11 PM MDT reply actions  

I know that Prince has strong linemates, and size is also a small concern for him, but that remains an outstanding number. I’m not saying that he belongs up at the very top, but I was surprised that he didn’t finish 10th to 15th on any of the three lists.

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Jun 13, 2011 7:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for this Scott, I was wondering when you guys were gonna start doing these sorts of articles again (i.e. along the lines of your Oilers Draft Watch series last year, where you looked at the likes of Marincin, Jarnkrok, Kuhnhackl etc.). Nice to focus on the later picks instead of just the RNH/Larsson debate. Any chance of looking at who the Oilers should look at in the 2nd/3rd rounds?

by EasyOil on Jun 13, 2011 2:37 AM MDT reply actions  

I’m sure that we’ll be ramping it up over the next couple of weeks, but I think some of the guys listed here may well be available to the Oilers at #31. If not, there will be some outstanding defenders available!

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Jun 13, 2011 7:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

Other prospects of interest to me are Matthew Puempel and Ty Rattie, who despite providing great offense are only on one top 15

One has to think Matt Puempel is ranked that low only because of his streak of flukey injuries, what with mono and the skate to the knee. Not the type of injury troubles that raise flags of being chronic, but enough to derail him. When in the lineup he’s shown the potential to be a 30 goal scorer in the NHL. Lowetide doesn’t think he’ll be there at 19th overall, and I’d tend to agree, but would be absolutely thrilled if the Oilers can nab him there.

by proxy on Jun 13, 2011 6:28 AM MDT reply actions  

Proud day for the Czechs...

Nice to see that the ’let’s move to North America and play there’ at age 17 is working out for the Czechs. Exactly ZERO Czechs playing in North America (and we have a tonne) are in a good draft position. To further the kick in the balls… our top rated Czech is Dimitri Jaskin who is of Russian Heritage (his Dad played in the Czech League 20 years ago and stayed so Dimitri is actually Czech born and raised but still).

I was suprised to see that some of the top Swedes and Russians are in North America – that really isn’t good for Junior Development for them either. Hopefully that trend reverses.

by Czechboy on Jun 13, 2011 10:05 AM MDT reply actions  

Jurco, a Slovak, is in a comparable draft position to Jaskin playing in the CHL. I think the real problem is how the Czech and Slovak developmental systems have imploded in the past few years and not whether they play at home or in NA.

by Stephan Cooper on Jun 13, 2011 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

One has to do with the other at least a bit. The model in the Czech Repbulic is for clubs to develop their own prospects via their junior teams, but if they just leave for North America before they can be anything but a 4th liner in the Extraliga there’s no incentive to develop them at all.

Especailly when CHL teams poach them before their draft year and get money for ‘developing a NHL draft pick’ from the NHL as per the NHL-CHL agreement.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Jun 13, 2011 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Stephen I agree that the Czech Junior system is in shambles… that wasn’t my point. My point was that leaving for North America isn’t helping them either. Coincidentally, Czechs and Slovaks are different and in very different positions in my opinion. However, I hope Jurco works out and doesn’t become the next Schremp.

Bruce, great point as always. I agree with both of you that the Czech Junior system is in shambles!

by Czechboy on Jun 13, 2011 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

The USNTDP deserves a heck of a break here: they are 18 and under kids playing in a 20 and under league! Rocco Grimaldi providing ‘less offence’ is complete and utter bullcockey. Especially since the USNTDP used to play in the NAHL, not USHL, and therefore aren’t part of the historical NHLE rating.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Jun 13, 2011 1:49 PM MDT reply actions   2 recs

I used the USHL conversion for the USNTDP since that’s where they play (and the team isn’t exactly overmatched in the league; they made the playoffs after all). They haven’t played in the USHL for long so historical comparisons are difficult, but Brandon Saad had almost identical numbers to Grimaldi’s 17 year-old season as a 16 year-old, so I feel pretty comfortable saying that Grimaldi’s offense is shy of most of the guys rated in the first round.

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Jun 13, 2011 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Saad was a late ‘92 birthdate. He was 17 when he put up those USHL numbers, for practical purposes. On what looks to be a deeper team based on counting stats (Saginaw also had four forwards who were PPG players in the OHL ahead of Saad, so its tough to say how much Saad’s pts totals had to do with them or vice versa). They were on different tracts, really: Saad was being groomed for the U18 squad, Grimaldi still could go with the U17 squad in 2009-10. He did very well for both:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=38622

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Jun 13, 2011 11:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

The team was deeper offensively but they also missed the playoffs in 2009-10 with Grimaldi posting a -19, which was the third-worst forward number on the club so I don‘t know if saying he did very well that year (in the USHL) is all that accurate. He led the team in plus-minus this year, so there has been some significant improvement, which is great, but that still leaves his offense, which is good, but not as good as most of the other top kids in the draft when run through NHLE. Combine that with his size, and I find it surprising that he‘s so highly rated. Do you not think the NHLE adjustment works well for the USHL?

The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.

by Scott Reynolds on Jun 14, 2011 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’m sure the NHLE is fine for the USHL in general (a comparison of league difficulty based on boxcar projections), I just think that there are some legitimate, extraneous circumstances with how the USNTDP works that make it a bit suspect. Guys are ‘lucky’ to play 30 USHL games in a year for the team. We’re dealing with really limited sample sizes and the focus for these players is actually the international competition rather than the USHL. I mean, the team will pull their best players if the team was still in the USHL playoffs to go play in the U18s, that’s how the program is set up.

And I was saying Grimaldi did well that year in general, the non-USHL games and the international tournaments were terrific results for him.

Obviously we’re dealing with small sample sizes all around here. Head to head against a lot of his competition he does quite well.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Jun 14, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

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