Quote That May Interest Only Me: Nicklas Lidstrom
by Derek Zona on May 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT
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Print| "I'm going to take my time before making a decision. We'll have our meetings and go from there. I'm going to take the whole year into account. I'll take about as much time as last year. I'll meet with the coaching staff. It's been tough the last couple of years." |
--Nicklas Lidstrom on the subject of his retirement.
Lidstrom's departure from the NHL would be a good thing for the Edmonton Oilers (and every other team in the Western Conference) but a terrible thing for the league and hockey in general. Though he's toyed with the idea for each of the last four years, he's 41 and not getting any younger. He's got more money than Davy Crockett and has captured nearly every possible accolade a man in the NHL could dream of.
He's the best defenseman the game has known since Bobby Orr's knees went on him and he's neck-and-neck for the best player the league has known since Gretzky and Lemieux retired (Lemieux's first retirement) with Jaromir Jagr. He's a quiet, calm, leader, a man who is the pinnacle of grace, class and dignity. And while others will come along to equal and probably one day surpass his on-ice records, Drew Doughty, Tyler Myers, Victor Hedman and the next bonus baby defenseman will be hard-pressed to match the man.
I've never been a fan of announcing a final season so that the media can treat it as a retirement circuit (see Erving, Julius) and if Lidstrom does decide he's had enough, going out quietly while playing the toughest possible minutes on the biggest stage in the world is a fitting send-off for the all-time great.
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Consummate professional.
He will make his decision before July 1st. He knows what hemming and hawing on such a potentially large contract figure would do to the team trying to plan their cap space against the possibility of losing their best defenseman.
Of course I want him to come back.
by J.J. from Kansas on May 20, 2011 10:34 AM MDT reply actions
Ray Bourque?
No love for Ray Bourque, I think Lidstrom is in the conversation for best all time since Orr, but there is a strong argument for Bourque as the superior player (he would at least deserve a mention).
The dude is the all time leader in D scoring.
Bourque was great but I’d take Lidstrom over him without even batting an eye. I don’t think it’s even close.
Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and a frequenter of the time waster that is Twitter.
Well you are free to have that opinion I suppose, but I think it is close and Bourque is probably the better player.
Take a look at 1991-2001, both players played in the same league for 11 seasons and:
Bourque put up 645pts in 742 games;
Lidstrom put up 579pts in 788 games.
Bourque was age 31-41 during that time and Lidstrom was age 21-31.
So you might be right, its not that close… but for Bourque. I realize points are not the be all and end all, but that is a pretty big dispartiy considering Bourque (in his twilight) smoked Lidstrom (in his prime).
Nice that Lidstrom’s prime only includes one of his six Norris trophies.
No doubt that Bourque put up more points than Lidstrom. I would say that Lidstrom’s defensive abilities more than make up that difference, as partially evidenced that, even if you take out all of Bourque’s career fights, he still has more than twice as many penalty minutes.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a defenseman to play nearly 1,500 games and have fewer than 500 penalty minutes in his career? Of D-Men who have played at least 1,000 only Red Kelly and Sergei Zubov have lower PlM/GM numbers than Lidstrom
Kelly 327 PIM in 1316 Career Games (823 Career Points)
Zubov 337 PIM in 1068 Career Games (771 Career Points)
Lidstrom 484 PIM in 1612 Career Games (1,108 Career Points)
Now I realize penalty minutes taken are not the be all and end all for defensive ability, but that is a pretty big disparity considering Lidstrom (throughout his entire career) smoked Bourque (in his).
by J.J. from Kansas on May 20, 2011 5:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice that Lidstrom’s prime only includes one of his six Norris trophies.
You could argue that in that 21-31wasn’t really his prime.
Now I realize penalty minutes taken are not the be all and end all for defensive ability, but that is a pretty big disparity considering Lidstrom (throughout his entire career) smoked Bourque (in his).
PIMs are of course part style of play but it also has a lot to do with positioning. Lidstrom is almost never out of position. He makes it look so easy because he’s in the exact right spot to be.
Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and a frequenter of the time waster that is Twitter.
PIMs are of course part style of play but it also has a lot to do with positioning.
Agreed. It’s hard to compare just PIM-to-PIM among D-men because a guy like Scott Stevens plays a totally different game that brings good things (like intimidation) along with all those PIMs (although I would also argue that a guy can be just as psyched out skating into the zone against a player he knows he’s not going to get the best of 1-on-1).
But Bourque was not really known as a physical defender either, so I would say that the style-of-play comparison with Lidstrom is close enough to say that the PIM disparity is very meaningful when trying to compare defensive abilities between the two.
by J.J. from Kansas on May 21, 2011 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions
And 5 seasons over 100 points. But seeing how this is an Oilers site, I doubt you guys overlooked him. So there must be a really good reason why you don’t mention his name, along with the very best.
Because he was a terrible defenceman.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
I wouldn’t agree with that. In the playoffs and in big international tournaments Coffey played some pretty solid d. He played on a team in an era that did not require him to play good d every night during the regular season. But when it mattered, he showed up to play. Look at the Canada Cup when he broke up the 2 on one and turned the play back up the ice for the winning goal.
“Time for overtime: At 12 minutes of OT, Vladimir Kovin and Mikhail Varnakov broke out on a 2-on-1 with Paul Coffey the lone man back. Coffey held his ground and bent down with his stick to break up the pass in front of Peeters. He streamed the other way down the wing with a head of steam, made a pass, and after some action in front of Myshkin he received the puck right back from John Tonelli. Then he let a shot go from the point which was tipped into the net by none other than Mike Bossy- Canada’s purest goal-scoring talent ever. "
Coffey could dominate a game the way few defenceman could, except for Orr. I got the NHL Network a couple of years ago and started watching some old Oiler games again for fun, and one thing that really stood out watching was just how much he could control the game, even relative to Gretzky.
Coffey was a different type of d-man that Lidstrom, but he was great!
I can bring up a few plays that show that Strudwick can make a good defensive play as well… doesn’t make him a good defenceman.
He is one of the best pure offensive players of all time and certainly provided far more than he gave up, but he wasn’t good defensively and he always needed a partner that was willing (and capable) of covering for him.
Guys like Lidstrom, Bourque and Orr never needed that.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
Hmmm...
Bourque – 21 seasons, 13 first all-star teams, 6 second teams
Lidstrom – 19 seasons, 9 first all-star teams, 2 second teams (one pending)
Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
This is just an out and out troll and it’s annoying.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Pardon me? It’s a troll?!
There are facts, presented as such for the readers’ consideration. There’s not a word of editorial comment or opinion unless you consider “Hmmm” an opinion)
Voters of the day elected Bourque to the All-Star team virtually every year of his whole career. Voters of his day took a while to warm to Lidstrom as being the best of the best. Eventually they did: Lidstrom 6 Norris Trophies (one pending?), Bourque 5. So Lidstrom was considered the best defenceman in the league more often than Bourque, but Bourque was considered one of the top two, or top four, defenders more often than Lidstrom. Now you can question whose consideration it was, but the results of their considerations are a matter of record, one which I’m just drawing attention to. I realize they are far from perfect, but I have Always included individual honours including All-Star teams to analyze players’ pverall impact.
But now that I am using that method as One level of comparison between the two greatest defencemen since the merger, that makes me a troll? Sorry, I don’t deserve that.
Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on May 27, 2011 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Bourque had 7/13 first allstar team selections and 4/6 second allstar team selections in a 21 team NHL that featured almost exclusively players from North America.
In Bourque’s first 11 seasons, 68% of 1st allstar selections were Canadians and 86% of 2nd allstar selections were Canadians.
In Lidstrom’s first 11 seasons, 45% of 1st allstar selections were Canadians and 64% of 2nd allstar selections were Canadians.
The influx of higher quality European and American defencemans through the late 80’s and onwards probably had an impact on how you pick one of the 4 best defencemen in any given season.
In the seasons that they played in the same league together, Lidstrom had 4 first team selections to Bourque’s 2.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
Yeah those are factors for sure. Worth remembering though that when you’re using small sample like All-Stars over 11 years that’s just 66 guys on each team. So Bourque and Lidstrom themselves would have had measurable impacts on those % of Canadian numbers. Not enough to invalidate your point, but an effect for sure. In Bourque’s first 11 seasons, 11% of first All-Stars and 6% of second All-Stars were in fact, Ray Bourque himself! Whereas Lidstrom was personally responsible for 8% of first-teamers over his first 11 years.
That said, Doug Harvey and his 7 Norris Trophies and his 10 first all-star selections played in a league with ~100% Canadians period, let alone on first or second all-star teams. Does that diminish him? Arguably yes. Does that remove him from the conversation? No, of course not. All you can do is compare any player against his peers, then try to project from there. To me, an admirer of both players, the fact Lidstrom took 7 years to make an All-Star team whereas Bourque was a fixture right from his rookie year, is a point in favour of Bourque.
Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on May 27, 2011 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions
I only used 11 years because that’s how long Bourque played in an 21 team NHL (where he garnered the majority of his accolades).
I don’t think it diminishes what they did in any aspect, I just don’t think it’s fair to count accolades and compare players, especially when they played in very different eras.
Personally, I think it’s easier to be named best defenceman in a league with 126 players from North America than it is with 180 players from all over the world. That doesn’t mean his are dimished, it’s not his fault he was born in 1960, but I don’t think it’s fair to compare against guys in a different era.
Much like I don’t think Gretzky’s points record will ever be broken using 6×4 nets, it doesn’t mean that there won’t be another player who comes around that doesn’t dominate more than 99 did.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
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