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Fans Dodge The Truth To Hold Fast To Their Delusions

Plato & Aristotle via Wikimedia Commons, public domain.

Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
--George E. Ays

In 2009-2010, the Colorado Avalanche received more press than any other team in the Western Conference besides the Chicago Blackhawks. Initially predicted to finish 14th in the conference, a group of young players with enormous talent and a bunch of rag-tag role players defied all odds and made the playoffs.

The Avalanche also generated a significant amount of discussion amongst the stats-based blogs in this corner of the hockey blogosphere. Call it luck or variance, but the Avs rode it as hard as they possibly could, and barely held on to squeak into the 8th spot in the playoffs. From last April:

I appreciate the "little engine that could" side of this story, but in the end, I wish that Colorado would have slipped out of the playoffs. Colorado fans can now hold on to their delusions, rather than gaining a deeper understanding of what was actually going on during the first four months of the season.

No one tried harder to demonstrate the amount of luck involved in what the Avalanche did more than the esteemed Gabriel Desjardins of Behind The Net Hockey. Try as he might, however, Avs' fans refused to believe their team was lucky at all. A quick read through the responses to Desjardins' work on the Avs shows just how far Avs fans were willing to go to explain their success. They delved deep into the well of cliches:

"depth of scoring", "a puck possession style", "Coach Sacco's will", "strong starts", "high percentage shots", "up and coming young forwards", "team speed", "better scoring chances", "great young talent"

Kent Wilson knew better:

A team rides the percentages all year every year. MTL did a couple of seasons ago, BOS did it last year. This year, it’s the Avs turn. When they regress next season – as BOS and MTL did previously – everyone will wonder why they’re "not working as hard" or if "success went to their heads".

Star-divide

And regress they have. This season, the Avs sit firmly in 14th in the Western Conference, and it's not an accident. Though their underlying stats have improved ever so slightly, the Avs are still a terrible team at even strength, but this season Craig Anderson wasn't superhuman and without superhuman goaltending, the Avs cannot overcome their own true talent level. Predictably, Avs fans have reached for the cliches and the blame has landed squarely on the shoulders of coach Joe Sacco. Last year, according to the fans, Sacco was directly responsible for the Avs' success, and this year, he's directly responsible for the Avs' failure. His 2010-2011 deficiencies include:

He tends to overreact to good and bad play...
The team has had no heart or will to win recently...
...control of the locker room may be slipping from Sacco's hands
He’s not getting the best out of any of his players and he hasn’t since last year...
His schemes are not working and he hasn’t figured out how to adjust to the adjustments that shut him down...

In the span of five months, a man who deserved the Jack Adams Trophy has developed more faults than attributes.  True talent level never comes into play - there are plenty of reasons to fall back on thereby continuing to ignore the primary driver of poor play.

Avalanche fans are not alone in ignoring, even denying the evidence behind the performance of the team. In an article entitled "When the scientific evidence is unwelcome, people try to reason it away" in The Guardian, author Ben Goldacre explores what happens when people are "...confronted with scientific evidence that challenges their pre-existing view." His conclusion? "Often they will try to ignore it, intimidate it, buy it off, sue it for libel or reason it away." Goldacre references a 1979 paper from Lord, Ross and Lepper. From the paper's abstract:

People who hold strong opinions on complex social issues are likely to examine relevant empirical evidence in a biased manner. They are apt to accept "confirming" evidence at face value while subjecting "disconfirming" evidence to critical evaluation, and, as a result, draw undue support for their initial positions from mixed or random empirical findings.

Goldacre goes on to discuss a second group of people - those who attack the science behind the evidence presented to them.

When presented with unwelcome scientific evidence, it seems, in a desperate attempt to retain some consistency in their world view, people would rather conclude that science in general is broken.

This line of thinking is similar to that used by fans who argue in favor of shot quality. Shot quality has become the great foil used by those arguing against possession metrics as a basis of hockey analytics. The ever-increasing mountain of possession data, evidence and studies means little to the shot quality folks. Arguments abound in favor of shot quality with no evidence to back it up, so lacking so Desjardins challenged the world to prove the existence of shot quality. There were no takers.

Goldacre concludes:

When presented with unwelcome scientific evidence, it seems, in a desperate attempt to retain some consistency in their world view, people would rather conclude that science in general is broken.

This is an important point. Avs fans not only concluded the possession metrics were broken, they did so without proving their own hypothesis. In fact, Avs fans (and a couple of other fan bases through the playoffs) extended their flawed reasoning by advancing the argument that if their unproven arguments weren't yet proved incorrect, they were right. By their reasoning, not only is the possession science broken, the lack of science behind their arguments was right because it was unproven. The more data, the more studies, the more evidence presented to the contrary, in favor of the possession metrics, only saw the shot quality proponents retrench deeper into their opposition of possession metrics. They came up with more wild explanations for their point of view, devling deeper into the world of cliched intangibles.

Shortly after the 2010 Stanley Cup Finals, NPR ran a story on this very subject matter, though NPR's area of focus was American politics. In that story, NPR interviewed Brendan Nyhan of the University of Michigan who published a study, When Corrections Fail: The Persistence of Political Misperceptions. In the study, Nyahn and his colleague conducted four experiments in which they purposefully misled test subjects and at times issued a correction to the purposefully misleading information. From Nyhan's abstract:

Results indicate that corrections frequently fail to reduce misperceptions among the targeted ideological group. We also document several instances of a "backfire effect" in which corrections actually increase misperceptions among the group in question.

Nyhan says in the NPR interview:  "You know, it's hard, it's threatening to us to admit that things we believe are wrong."  Rather than admit they are wrong people have tendency to dig in.  They attack the evidence, they attack the science, they attack the source and they hold more fervently to their beliefs.  It's a shame.  Rather than advance the discussion and gain a deeper understanding, Avs fans were busy building narratives without evidence to explain their 2009-2010 season.  Lacking a fundamental understanding of the makeup of the team led to assumptions and expectations completely out of line with the true talent of the team.  Those who gained a deeper understanding of the team like Wilson did above understand the impending correction and even predicted the fan reaction.  Others predicted the impending 14th-place finish.  Without their own evidence, people try to reason away the existing evidence and are forced to create false narratives.  Armed with the evidence of possession metrics, a person finds a deeper understanding of the game of hockey which leads to a deeper understanding of players, teams, and seasons.  By rejecting the evidence before them, Avalanche fans have prevented themselves from gaining the ultimate insight into their team.

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But will you invite it up for coffee?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 5, 2011 11:47 AM MST up reply actions  

If he won’t, I will.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Mar 6, 2011 9:46 PM MST up reply actions  

As fans, its easy to get wrapped up emotionally and I think it clouds our judgement.

That’s a significant part of being a fan though.

fanatic
-a person motivated by irrational enthusiasm

It’s great to be irrational when rooting for your team, it’s the essence of sports, in a way. But when it comes to understanding your team and explaining performances, irrational enthusiasm doesn’t lead to explanations.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 5, 2011 11:55 AM MST up reply actions  

Exactly

Sometimes you have to step back and look at things objectively. I think that’s the measure of a true fan

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
NM's Chief Lady Pleaser. Just ask eightyseven.

by Semi_Colon on Mar 6, 2011 1:29 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

i dunno, i vacillate on this question. is there any obligation for a fan to be objective? it’s an identity defined by personal affection and sometimes cultural attachment, and those kind of identities are often characterized by wishful thinking and greater or lesser degrees of willful blindness. am i obligated to be rational about my mom? my children? my absurdly large collection of hello kitty commemorative charms? why? aren’t there areas of life where people are allowed to have irrational faith, beliefs without evidence? and if so, why can’t sports fandom be one of them? after all, avs fans making up stories doesn’t materially affect… anything. it’s possibly one of the most innocuous forms of unscientific thinking.

i can see how it’s frustrating to deal with people who are thinking illogically, but i think an allowance has to be made for the differences between professional hockey-talkers and dudes with opinions. the latter are allowed a far greater measure of craziness than the former, and i think it’s a waste of time to spend time arguing with ordinary, non-specialist fans who are primarily in this thing for the emotional rollercoaster. put the objective evidence out there, make your case, if they don’t want to bite, they’re only hurting themselves, and moreover hurting themselves in a masochistic sort of way that deep down they rather enjoy.

i’m just going to through this out there: it was more fun being a fan before i got into mathematical hockey thought. do i know the nhl game better now? definitely. but i enjoy it less. the way the habs looked through the lens of fanatical insanity was way more interesting than the way they look through the data, and i often wonder, from a personal standpoint, what i actually gain from the ‘objective’ understanding.

by ephie on Mar 7, 2011 3:30 AM MST up reply actions   2 recs

Joe on the street™ can have any irrational, emotional opinion he wants. But he seems to also think that extends him the right to call me a c*sucker (and then hide out a week later when he turns out to be completely wrong.)

by Hawerchuk on Mar 7, 2011 3:50 PM MST up reply actions  

well, yeah, i’m not defending people who come on to your site and behave in an abusive and insulting manner. but trolls are the universal problem of the internet, no matter what the topic or the position, and have always been impervious to rationality as well as appeals to basic human decency.

by ephie on Mar 8, 2011 3:49 AM MST up reply actions  

is there any obligation for a fan to be objective

No, a fan doesn’t have to be objective to be a fan. But I would argue that a real fan would want to know what is causing his team to slump, to know why they have improved this year as opposed to last, to know why so-and-so is scoring fewer goals than his amazing career year last year (besides “he’s having bad luck this year!”)

To me, looking at my team, or any team, through the data is the more interesting approach. You can understand so much more of what is going right or wrong. While it is great to caught up in the fanatical insanity every now and again, it is also great to be able to take a step back, breathe, and say “This bad stretch of play isn’t going to continue because…” or “while this run of great play is amazing, you can’t expect it to continue, and don’t be surprised when it ends, because…”

Maybe that’s just the way I operate, but I find it helps keep a much more even keel about things. Of course, that doesn’t stop me from getting really excited at times either

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
NM's Chief Lady Pleaser. Just ask eightyseven.

by Semi_Colon on Mar 7, 2011 6:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Maybe that’s just the way I operate, but I find it helps keep a much more even keel about things.

I agree with that. Goals still bring me to my feet, great passes still leave me laughing at the skill involved, and I still yell “ooooooooooooooohhhhhh” after a big hit (unless JF Jacques just threw one 25 feet away from the play and has no chance of recovering or gaining the puck).

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 7, 2011 7:38 PM MST up reply actions  

individual games, sure, still have enough drama to be interesting, but the even-keeled (true-talent/regression-to-the-mean) view takes a lot of the drama out of the season narratives that most fans are accustomed to living, and relocates most of that narrative tension at the general management level, where it’s less bloody and profane (at least, as far as we know). honestly, i think the oilers fans/statisticians are a bit spoiled in this regard, because you can get so much narrative action from the HORRIBLE COLLAPSE!! INCOMPETENT MANAGEMENT!!! BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!! stuff. numbers are more fun at the extremes, less so when you’re psychologically allied to the team dog paddling around 8th place year after year, and the only flashes of brilliance they’ve had are the exact sort of thing y’all are ridiculing avs fans for taking seriously. it does get harder to enjoy the spikes when you know them for what they are.

by ephie on Mar 8, 2011 4:06 AM MST up reply actions  

I wonder if Avs fans apologized to Gabe for calling him out and making so many hate posts.

Right before I close the door I yell "Pizza's here" into my emplty appartment so the delivery guy doesn't think All that Pizza is for me!

by SumOil on Mar 5, 2011 9:16 AM MST reply actions  

Highly unlikely. As the second study suggests, it’s likely a significant portion of those fans dug their heels in.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 5, 2011 11:52 AM MST up reply actions  

Great stuff. “red army line” had an excellent comment in response to a person that said that we shouldn’t treat players like robots because Gabe suggested not looking too much into coaching changes or other anomalous events when judging in-season momentum. Said red army line: “Exactly, and hence we never know how they’ll respond in those cases, right? For every successful coaching change there’s half a dozen ones that had no effect. Each time there’s a death we don’t know if the team responds by playing well (in memory) or by playing poorly (sad).”

Does he call it Luongo underwear?

Co-Manager at Behind the Net

by Bettman's Nightmare on Mar 5, 2011 10:02 AM MST reply actions  

I notice you didn’t use many numbers in this post Derek. For shame.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2011 10:23 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

I apologize. I’ll get back to the metrics ASAP.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 5, 2011 11:51 AM MST up reply actions  

This does cut both ways, though.

Both of which ways? Should someone present evidence of a great driving force in winning hockey games and compare it to the current possession metrics, I doubt very much the current crew of possession metric creators and derivers and the stats-based anaylsts they’ve spawned are going to hold fast to possession metrics.

The key is evidence. Those that use evidence to come to conclusions don’t have an issue with conflicting data when rigor and the scientific method are the source of the conflicting data. So, no, it doesn’t cut both ways.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 5, 2011 11:51 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

That sounds great, but learning generally takes more effort than this. Someone ‘disproving’ possession stats wouldn’t happen in one article, most likely – it’d be a long, slow slog. And yes, I don’t think the proponents of them are totally wedded to the idea. Intellect can be elastic, but not as elastic as you are suggesting.

by Triumph44 on Mar 5, 2011 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

And yes, I don’t think the proponents of them are totally wedded to the idea. Intellect can be elastic, but not as elastic as you are suggesting.

Gabe has already changed his mind on shooting once. The group as a whole is already looking at Fenwick being more useful because of the correlation with scoring chances. Evidence is king.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 6, 2011 8:19 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I think your point is, in principle, a valid one – just about anyone can become a dogmatic ideologue about something, even if they originally came to a position via an evidence-based route.

The challenge is, of course, not to be credulous enough to fall for any hokum while at once being willing to challenge your premises if the evidence demands it.

by Kent Wilson on Mar 6, 2011 10:46 PM MST up reply actions  

The challenge is, of course, not to be credulous enough to fall for any hokum while at once being willing to challenge your premises if the evidence demands it.

We can only collect data, accumulate evidence and test and re-test.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 7, 2011 12:18 AM MST up reply actions  

It does cut both ways

It comes down to the issue of correlation versus causation. Correlation simply says two events are related to one another. Causation means one event causes another to happen.

The classic example is ice cream sales and murder rate. They are related to one another…they move in the same direction. Ice cream sales and murder rate tend to move up together. They increase in the hotter months, and they decrease in the colder months.

But does ice cream sales (or consumption) cause murders to happen? Of course not. But I can produce “evidence” that shows the strong correlation.

As bloggers and fans, we are constantly on the lookout for stats that “cause” our ultimate metric – wins and losses. In fact, we’re so passionate about our teams, that we grasp at any inane statistic to prove our point.

As pointed out by others, only through sound scientific testing and statistical analysis can we determine the difference between correlation and causation.

by Griz-ATL on Mar 7, 2011 11:22 AM MST up reply actions  

Does management fall into this trap?

As a psychological researcher, I was impressed not only with the content, but the citations. Fans, in general, are always going to be biased toward their team. I suspect this post will fall on deaf hears to the faithful.

My concern is whether these cognitive distortions are acknowledged by a team’s organization at all levels: ownership, management, and coaching staff. You would like to believe that they are, but then you see in the Av’s case, Anderson and Stewart—2 young and promising players—get traded away.

With respect to the source of my own hockey bias, the Oilers, I believe this post should be recommended reading for the Oilers organization. Anyone know Tambellini’s email address? ;-)

by Waltlaw on Mar 5, 2011 12:08 PM MST reply actions  

2 sides of the coin

There’s two sides to this. There are fans who will unwaveringly cheer for their team. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone, and the reasoning behind it is pretty obvious.

There are also “fans” who in their goal of trying to be as impartial as possible become overly negative of their team.

Just as super fans can find reasons to justify anything their team does, so too can fans nitpick everything the team does as well.

by jimbojones100 on Mar 5, 2011 9:05 PM MST reply actions  

It the overly negative fans are nitpicking real things, it’s not a delusion.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 6, 2011 8:16 AM MST up reply actions  

I like this came out on an oilers blog...

But seriously, great article. While science is decidedly not infallible, “evidence is king”.

SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!

by Nanodummy on Mar 6, 2011 2:30 PM MST reply actions  

Just before navigating over here I was told that I was “trying to apply a sterile analysis to something that requires subjective evaluation”. Actual quote. That was in the context of determining whether a player (Scott Gomez) was bad or could turn it around.

My initial reaction was to laugh, but now I’m not sure how to respond to that, actually. At that point it’s pretty obvious that no argument that I can present will be considered.

Great article. Too bad not enough people will pay attention, and those that do will be the already converted. Ah, someday maybe.

by MathMan on Mar 6, 2011 6:04 PM MST reply actions  

Great post … as always. You’ve probably heard this many times, but totally appreciate all the effort you put into articles like these. :)

GO SHARKS!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Mar 6, 2011 7:35 PM MST reply actions  

Some nitpicking here

First, before I nitpick, I agree with everything here, and think this is blogging at it’s finest.

Predictably, Avs fans have reached for the cliches and the blame has landed squarely on the shoulders of coach Joe Sacco. Last year, according to the fans, Sacco was directly responsible for the Avs’ success, and this year, he’s directly responsible for the Avs’ failure. His 2010-2011 deficiencies include:

I feel completely justified bitching about coach Sacco, because it seems like he is guilty of the same things Avs fans are. He’s coaching completely different this year. Breaks weren’t going the team’s way, so he overreacts and benches players because he thinks last season’s performance was their true talent level, and if he could just find that spark they could perform up to the task. By the way he is benching players right and left it’s as if he thinks all he has to do is make the players try harder and they’ll play better.

So, while I completely understand where you’re coming from, the coaching is just as guilty of buying into the idea that last season was the true talent level and panicking when the team didn’t perform up to that talent level.

Now a clarification:

I thought I remembered somewhere on this site that the Avs underlying numbers early in the season were a lot better than last years. After losing guys like Quincey and Fleishmann, the Avs struggled for a while (At the time I felt their underlying numbers were still good, but they were getting a bit unlucky for a few games). Then after a sustained period of unlucky, the numbers went south.

My personal theory is that the Avs were a much better team than last season, then went through a rough patch due to normal variance. The coaching staff overreacted, started benching players right and left and panicked, demoralizing the team (a better was of saying the cliche “Losing the locker room”). After that, the Avs underlying numbers dropped like a rock, as players didn’t perform up to their capabilities.

And yes, I realize that’s a bit pop-psychology, but there’s no way any team in the NHL has a “true talent” where they only win twice in 48 days. Sure the Avs have gotten a bit unlucky, but I’ve watched every game there, and they deserved those losses. I can’t believe their true talent is that bad. That’s historically/expansion team bad.

Avalanche Shutouts are a powerful Aphrodisiac
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time

by Jibblescribbits on Mar 6, 2011 10:12 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Hell, if we're nitpicking, let's talk about the lead...
In 2009-10, the Colorado Avalanche received more press than any other team in the Western Conference besides the Chicago Blackhawks.

Evidence? Or is it [citation needed]?

Seriously, fun post though, Derek. I do wonder how many people posts like this sway. In my encounters, so many humans either enjoy questioning their own assumptions (and thus are in the choir) or skip that step in the endless pursuit to attain their bigger priority, which is to convince others that they’re right.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Mar 7, 2011 3:19 PM MST up reply actions  

I do wonder how many people posts like this sway.

Very few, I imagine. Maybe this line of posts I’ve done taken in totality has had an influence on a few people here or there, but 99% of the fans in the arena don’t want to figure out what’s going on. They want to be entertained and nothing else.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 7, 2011 4:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Well done Derek. Funny to find that quote of mine from last year. Read the response directly after it – proves your point quite well.

by Kent Wilson on Mar 6, 2011 10:40 PM MST reply actions  

I’ve had this in the queue for awhile now, but it took the Sacco stuff to bring it together. And yes, your quote is quite fitting.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 6, 2011 11:23 PM MST up reply actions  

The responses to it are even better. First one: but the Avs are doing it with a young team! That’s the key reason why it will continue!

by Kent Wilson on Mar 7, 2011 8:07 AM MST up reply actions  

I’m going to play a bit of devil’s advocate, and I hinted at this above. The Avs actually did improve this season. Both gabe and one of the guys here (I thought it was Derek, actually) noted early in this season that the Avs were improving. Gabe even said (paraphrase) Why Should I be surprised that a team with mostly under-25 players got better?

I believe all this was sometime in December.

I guess what i’m getting at is there seems to be a narrative of “See the Avs regressed to the mean” around the Corsiatti, but I think there’s evidence that supports that that’s part of the story, but the team got significantly better from last season, at least for a while. It’s not incomprehensible that it was younger players getting better. Something happened near midseason where the “better” Avs disappeared. Whether it’s the proverbial “Coach lost the locker room” or injuries, or what, but I think just saying “The Avs regressed to the mean”is a bit too simplistic an explanation for this season.

Avalanche Shutouts are a powerful Aphrodisiac
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time

by Jibblescribbits on Mar 7, 2011 9:22 AM MST up reply actions  

The Avs did get marginally better in terms of out-shooting before all the trades and injuries set in. That said, they didn’t get that much better and certainly not enough to assuage the inevitable drop in the percentages nor any of the injuries that occurred.

The point is: the Avs were never even close to as good as they seemed. All the narratives that were introduced during their incredible run are now being inverted in the face of the regression. That they managed to take a shaky step forward in terms of possession really doesn’t change any of this.

by Kent Wilson on Mar 7, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions  

Agree they were never as good as they seemed.

 I thought the early improvement was a lot more than marginal. I thought the word used to describe the Avs improvement this year (in the December time frame) was Substantial. Of course, I’m having trouble finding it in the comment/post archives because you guys all use “substantial” a lot. Get a thesaurus.

I would bet if you did splits from games before and after new years the disparity of possession would be greater than what’s being represented here. I think this season really is a tale of two teams.

And I agree about the narratives last year. I didn’t think Sacco was a great coach last year, it’s easy to be a good poker player when you’ve been dealt pocket aces. This year I think he’s overreacted to small sample sizes. I wasn’t trying to say Derek was wrong, the dichotomy of the narratives are hilarious. But I think simply saying “They regressed to the mean” is also a bit too simplistic, and is in danger of falling into it’s own narrative. There’s more to the story than that (If I knew how to check Corsi based on time or game I’d look it up)

Avalanche Shutouts are a powerful Aphrodisiac
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time

by Jibblescribbits on Mar 7, 2011 11:43 AM MST up reply actions  

Found it

Scott Reynolds: Nov 30th:

I was expecting to see the Avalanche improve as a team, but regress significantly in the standings because of a regression in their percentages (and their team shooting percentage in particular). But that hasn’t happened. Instead, the Avalanche have improved their territorial game markedly – they’ve gone from being outshot by 4.2 shots per game in 2009-10 to outshooting their opposition by 0.8 shots per game this season – which has more than overcome a slight decline in percentages, and now sit with the second best goal differential in the Western Conference.

Avalanche Shutouts are a powerful Aphrodisiac
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time

by Jibblescribbits on Mar 7, 2011 11:45 AM MST up reply actions  

Fair enough. I was impressed with the Avs in the first month as well. However, that’s a very, very small percentage of the season – it’s entirely possible for even bad teams to outshoot over 13 games, depending on stuff like playing to score and strength of schedule.

I certainly think the Avs have suffered from injuries this year, probably to a non-trivial degree. Paul Stastny seems to have fallen off the horse this year too, for whatever reason. But I doubt the first month was truly indicative of their talent level.

Maybe that’s not true and they’re a .500 team in terms of possession these days (full healthy, of course). Seems like stretch to me, but I haven’t looked into it much.

by Kent Wilson on Mar 7, 2011 3:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Paul Stastny seems to have fallen off the horse this year too, for whatever reason.

No Wolski.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 7, 2011 4:24 PM MST up reply actions  

1st 2 months, and 24 games (as of that Scott Reynolds writing). Still a small sample size that could be inflated, but we’ll never know because injuries started piling up, including Quincey’s devastating injury soon after.

Not sure why Stastny has fallen off a cliff this season, and I hope it’s just an anomaly.

That said, the Avs were playing well for the 1st 1/4 of the season, injuries started piling up, and then they stopped playing well. We can look at last years stats and say “well it’s regression” but there seems to be evidence that it’s much more than just that.

Avalanche Shutouts are a powerful Aphrodisiac
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time

by Jibblescribbits on Mar 7, 2011 8:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Confirmation Bias is a Bitch

In any realm, people are all too willing to accept those things that confirm their already existing beliefs. I read a study last year, though I can’t quote the authors now, that broke a group of people into two segments, one that was pro-topic, and one that was anti-topic. Both groups were polled, given the exact same document, and polled again. In both cases, significant increases in prior opinions were present. In other words, both diametrically opposed to groups found evidence within the same document that strengthened their views. Unfortunately, confirmation bias is often coupled with availability bias, which causes an even deeper entrenchment. The Avs are great regardless of the evidence. And see, they made the playoffs! It proves the point.

And I once knew a guy who survived a burning car crash because he wasn’t wearing a selt-belt, or; it’s snowing in April, so global warming is a myth perpetrated by the oil-hating lefties.

by Jarndyce on Mar 7, 2011 12:51 PM MST reply actions  

Best Zona post ever

Fan bias clouds the ability to make rational argument. Time and time again, sports fans will say some pretty baseless things reasoned by little more than emotion with perhaps a touch of anecdotal evidence. It’s how a once-esteemed blog like From the Rink, after losing the editorial intelligence of James Mirtle and being left to rot with the rabble, ends up posting articles about certain teams having the worst fans.

by Beantown Canuck on Mar 7, 2011 2:37 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Reams of evidence exist to support the awful nature of the Canucks’ fan base. What I like is how your comment shows a perfect example of what was written above in relation to all of that evidence about the Canucks’ fans. Unfortunately, the attempt to ignore hasn’t made it go away, and now you’re attacking the source.

It’s like a case study for the article.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 7, 2011 4:32 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Sorry Derek, but..

I disagree with you about the Avs. The rest of it, yep, totally. People do go into a shell and don’t want to admit when they’re wrong.

But the Avs this year? They didn’t regress to the mean as a team. They got decimated by injuries and lost all chemistry.

For the first half of the season I believe they still were getting outshot but just producing more quality chances and had “finish”. Their players can plain put it in the back of the net when they get chances. They’re an opportunistic team, much like Montreal was in the playoffs last year. Are you gonna call them a fluke too? Because they got absolutely shelled but still managed to beat two great teams because they kept shots to the outside and counterattacked with numbers when opportunities presented themselves.

Back to the Avs. You want an explanation for Stastny? Chris Stewart. Completely dominated the first 15 games, got injured and then was just not motivated like the rest of the team when he came back. Found his mojo again in St. Louis. You think he’s untalented? Lol.

Anderson injured and rumoured that he turned down an offer from management in the offseason, possibly creating a sour situation. If he was playing like he CAN (and is in Ottawa), Colorado would still be winning games. Good goaltending is part of what makes a team good, it’s not something you set aside and say well the team is actually bad without their biggest strength. Like.. duh?

Mueller has been out all season.

Fleischmann had great chemistry with Duchene and Hejduk and he gets a freak injury.

Galiardi injured.

Quincey injured.

Cumiskey injured.

Foote injured.

Hejduk injured for several games.

These are not insignificant injuries. These are all players who have played on the top 2 lines/pairing before. Then you slot in all these guys who have no experience and no chemistry every other game. The Avs have had a bunch of less mentioned injuries but it all effects team chemistry when the lineup changes every night. Then Sacco just exacerbates the problem, doing stuff like giving Hunwick quality minutes and benching Holos and scratching multiple good players when they have one bad game. I like Sacco, he seems to get the most out of our young players and endless callups from the AHL, but his in-game coaching decisions seem to be completely screwed up. Most Avs fans have agreed on this since last year. His decision making was bad last year, they’re even worse this year now that he has more confidence and thinks he’s a fantastic coach due to the team success last year.

The Avs are not a bad team. At all. They’d be even better if Kroenke gave a shit and signed some quality defensemen in the offseason with the 20 million in cap space we have.

Avs fans just have to pray we sign another great goaltender this summer because Elliott and Budaj just don’t cut it and most of all we have to pray we don’t lose an asston of man games again. We did last year as well and probably would have finished middle of the pack in the West if not for them.

by Vincent Johnson on Mar 13, 2011 1:31 PM MDT reply actions  

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