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Around SBN: What If This Is It For The Celtics? End Of An Era Looming

#1 - Taylor Hall

Taylor Hall takes top spot, just as he did in June.

If you've been following the Oilers this season, I'm sure you already knew that Taylor Hall was going to be at the top of this list.  The only surprising part is that, as you saw with Derek's ranking of Sam Gagner, Hall alone at the top is only a sort-of kind-of consensus.  That, to be frank, is shocking.  After all, Hall was drafted first overall, the best prospect in the world in his draft year, and to this point in the season has done nothing but deliver results: he's second on the club in scoring with thirty-one points (just one point back of Dustin Penner) and tied for the team lead in goals with sixteen; he leads the team in shots with 139, which is twenty clear of the man in second; he gets more ice time per game at EV than any other forward on the team; he's one of four Oiler forwards in the black in terms of scoring chances (the others are Penner, Ales Hemsky, and Shawn Horcoff) and his Corsi rating is the best on the club among regulars (Linus Omark and Taylor Chorney beat him out); his penalty differential of +1.1 per sixty minutes is third on the club, and first among regulars (Zack Stortini and Liam Reddox are both ahead); and he's done all of this with pretty limited shelter from the head coach.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Taylor Hall is the best prospect under 25 in the organization - he's probably the best player today.

Star-divide


RankPlayer DOBDraftedYearBen
Bruce
Derek
JonScott
1 Taylor Hall
11/14/91
1 2010
1 1 T-1 1 1


Previous Rank: 1

Having already established that Taylor Hall has been fantastic so far this year, I thought it might be interesting to take a look at how he's done relative to some of the comparables I identified over the summer.  When I began, I used quite specific criteria, namely, forwards drafted in 1992 or later who were chosen in the top five picks, played their draft year in the CHL and scored within 0.15 points per game 0.10 goals per game of Taylor Hall in his draft year.  The list was a short one: Patrick Marleau and Jason Spezza.

Because it was so short, I expanded the criteria to include players drafted in 1982 or later, and expanded the point range on the low end to include players who scored within 0.20 points per game less than Hall; I also kicked in Jason Arnott who met all of the criteria save that he was taken 7th overall.  That expanded the list to seven players in total: Mike Modano (the everything goes right scenario), Patrick Marleau, Jason Spezza, Jason Arnott, Petr Nedved, David Legwand and Stu Barnes (the everything goes wrong scenario).  I identified Marleau as my favourite, but Mike Modano also did quite well in the poll.

So how is Hall doing compared to these players?  One complicating factor in that evaluation is age.  Hall was quite old when he was drafted and some of these comparables were significantly younger.  As such, in the chart below I've compared Hall to both the Draft +1 season and the 19 year-old season of the players listed above and normalized all point totals to an 82-game season:

Hall_comps_medium

I think it's most useful to compare Hall's season against the 19 year-old seasons listed above, so that's how I've organized the chart, and if we do that, we can see that Hall is tracking along nicely with Spezza and Marleau, behind Modano and Arnott, and well ahead of the rest of the pack, which is about what I expected.  I think that Marleau remains the best comparable for Hall going forward for the combination of stats, position (C/LW), and style, but continue to hold out hope that he'll develop into the all-zone point-per-game player that Mike Modano was into his thirties.  

But no matter how this divining turns out (maybe I'll bring out the Urim and Thummim for my next post), one thing is for sure: it will be a lot of fun to watch this young man improve.

Poll
Which player do you think is the best comparable for Taylor Hall?
Patrick Marleau
44 votes
Jason Spezza
12 votes
Mike Modano
139 votes
Jason Arnott
19 votes
Someone Else (Make Your Suggestion in the Comments)
56 votes

270 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 36 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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As you may have noticed, I like using pretty rigid criteria to establish comps as a starting point. Iginla may end up being a really nice one (their 19 y/o seasons look quite similar so far), and unlike many of the guys I have listed, he’s a winger. He didn’t make my list because he was a much better goalscorer in junior and scored more points overall. If we controlled for era effects, maybe that would change, but that would be my main rationale for leaving him out.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 4:51 PM MST up reply actions  

How about Stamkos as a comparable? The thing about Marleau and Spezza is that they are a bit older, and from a generation where the guys at the top of the draft start scoring reasonably soon, but have to get a ways into their twenties before they establish the range of their high end performance. The guys that have sat at the top of the draft since the lockout have tended to establish their place in the league, much, much faster. I think it’s a generation shift; young players are generally better educated about what it takes to win, and therefore, adjust much, much faster. Marleau took eight seasons to post his first elite season (86 points) and Spezza six (90 points), and although those are probably totals that would be reasonable to expect from Hall during some of his better, healthy seasons, how many guys taken at the top of the draft have taken that long to establish that level of performance? Kane scored 88 in his third season. Stamkos scored 96 in his second season. Malkin scored 85 and 106 in his rookie and sophomore seasons, respectively. Crosby and Ovechkin both cracked 100 in their first season! If Hall is not posting elite level scoring totals within his first three seasons, he will be the first player of his sort not to do that since Jordan Staal or Toews if you wish to count them (though granted, they were drafted for their two-way acumen), or maybe Eric Staal if you want to go back to the 2003 draft. These consensus dominant, offensive players at the very top of the draft are a special, special breed, and I don’t see anything in Hall’s game that makes me think he won’t join some pretty elite company within the next few years.

I think Stamkos is probably the best comparable. Points per game in two years of junior and first year of NHL:

Stamkos pre-draft junior year: 63 games played, 92 points, 1.46 points per game
Hall pre-draft junior year: 63 games played, 90 points, 1.43 points per game

Stamkos draft junior year: 61 games played, 105 points, 1.72 points per game
Hall draft junior year: 57 games played, 106 points, 1.86 points per game

Stamkos NHL rookie year: 79 games played, 46 points, 0.58 points per game
Hall NHL rookie year: 49 games played, 31 points, 0.63 points per game

Very comparable. I would point to similar pedigree, similarly mid-sized, goal-scoring forwards heading to a very poor team with some key young players. Consensus number one picks in their draft year with dominant offensive totals, and drafted in essentially the same era (there’s a definite generation gap with Marleau, and to a lesser extent Spezza). Here’s the scary thing; Hall seems to be tracking ahead of Stamkos so far. He’ll need to absolutely explode next year, but it’s not like there isn’t precedent.

by David Supina on Feb 1, 2011 3:49 PM MST reply actions  

Stamkos is a fine comparable statistically (for the most part; Stamkos was a better goalscorer in his draft year, which I think is significant), but I don’t really like using guys that young as comps simply because it doesn’t tell you much about what to expect from the player in question. Stamkos is still growing as a player, so saying that “all-grown-up” Hall might be like “all-grown-up” Stamkos is pretty abstract.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 5:04 PM MST up reply actions  

I think Stamkos has found the level of play he’s going to be at for about ten years. It just seems inconceivable that he might have another gear.

The bit about goal-scoring is interesting, but I think Hall was consciously trying to become a better play-maker in his last few years of junior. Given Hall’s style of play, I seriously doubt he was getting a high percentage of nothing assists, considering that he creates offense by using his speed and stickhandling to give opposing defenseman trouble.

Does Stamkos give us an idea of what sort of ten or fifteen year career that Hall might enjoy? No. But given the sheer number of similarities, he’s still the best comparable. And that’s definitely something to get excited about.

by David Supina on Feb 1, 2011 5:50 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t know that Stamkos will find another gear offensively (though he might), but I certainly expect him to improve his all-around game. I haven’t watched him closely enough to really know, but it seems to me he’s still giving up quite an awful lot the other way. That’s a bit off-topic, I know, but I thought I should clarify what I meant by “growing”.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 6:05 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I think Stamkos has found the level of play he’s going to be at for about ten years. It just seems inconceivable that he might have another gear.

That was what they said about Wayne Gretzky after he smashed Phil Esposito’s points record in his second year in the league. The next year he beat his own record by 48 points, and smashed Espo’s goals record by 16 goals while he was at it.

After that, however, he kinda plateau’d just around that 2.5 – 2.7 P/G level for a few years. Never really did have that extra extra EXTRA gear.

Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 3, 2011 1:45 PM MST up reply actions  

How about listen to me

Mark Messier

If you watch any oilers hockey ever you will see the oilers are better when either of em play for us

Hall is not as good as messier

But he is the same type of player (there is nothing the same between him and any of the examples)

by Kelvin Langner on Feb 1, 2011 3:53 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

I agree the player type is similar to Messier, although Messier was a much more imposing physical specimen in his day, and was able to use that to his advantage. In terms of style (which I assume is what you’re referring to when you say “nothing the same” since obviously some things are similar), I think that both Modano and Marleau are pretty decent (if far from perfect) comps.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 4:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Modano’s 89-90 season happened in a league where 7.37 goals were scored per game. This year it is 5.65. That would give Modano an adjusted total of 56 points.

Arnott’s year (‘93-’94) was 6.48 giving him an adjusted total of 62 points.

Spezza’s season would look slightly better at 56 points as well.

http://hockeyzen.com

by mindmasher on Feb 1, 2011 4:21 PM MST reply actions  

Yeah, adjusting all the seasons would have been a lot more work, so I didn’t much bother with it (that’s why I had the “drafted in 1992 or later” criterion to start with, but it didn’t give me enough names). The junior numbers just to get the names on the list would have no doubt been wonky as well with the way-back guys. The whole comp. business is fun, but there’s a reason I used the Urim and Thummim line if you know what I mean.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 4:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Personally I like the Modano comparable, but yea prognosticating matching careers based on the old guys usually deals with a time when there was considerably more offence (or less defence) in the league.

http://hockeyzen.com

by mindmasher on Feb 1, 2011 9:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Fuck you, Stu Barnes was awesome.

Manager at Vancouver Whitecaps and western Canadian soccer website Eighty Six Forever and infrequently-posting flunky at Edmonton Oilers blog The Copper & Blue.

by Benjamin Massey on Feb 1, 2011 4:31 PM MST via mobile reply actions  

I’d have phrased it less saltily, but otherwise I can’t disagree. Stu Barnes rocks ;)

A posse ad esse.

The Copper & Blue|OilersNation|Hockey or Die!

Twitter: @JonathanWillis
Mail: jonathan.willis@live.ca

by Jonathan Willis on Feb 1, 2011 6:05 PM MST up reply actions  

its funny how most of the comparables just trailed off in their prime or not live upto the promise of their rookie year.
So its best if he becomes the next Modano. However I will secretly hoping for a consistent top 10 point scorer!

Rebuild is a convenient excuse for GMs who dont wish to do their jobs

by SumOil on Feb 1, 2011 4:36 PM MST reply actions  

If everything goes right, Hall will be a bigger scorer than Modano.

Honestly, I don’t know where to set the high bar for this guy, Messier seems extreme, on other hand Taylor seems flat out better than Mark did as a teenager.

I’ve always thought Rick Nash was an OK comp in some respects, not enough parallels statistically I suppose. I think Hall has every chance to be the better player, but he’ll have to go some.

Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2011 4:43 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Interestingly, Nash didn’t make the list because his junior scoring in his draft year was too poor relative to Hall’s. If Hall ends up scoring more than Modano, I’ll be surprised but ecstatic. Modano scored over a point per game from 1994-95 to 2002-03 (and he did so every single year but one, which he missed by a single point); if Hall becomes a consistent point per game guy like Modano, well, he’ll be one of the better offensive players in the league. If he can add the other elements that Modano had in his game, he’ll be one of the best players in the league full stop.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 4:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Yup.

Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2011 5:17 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t think I’d mind Mike Modano, but as a fan, I’d rather he cheat offensively, and get an extra five or ten points every year.

by David Supina on Feb 1, 2011 5:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Why would you prefer that?

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 6:06 PM MST up reply actions  

I like goals. Not really more complicated than that.

by David Supina on Feb 1, 2011 6:19 PM MST up reply actions  

but at the expense of giving up more in our end?
Its better if he turns into a more complete winger rather than like Kovalchuk

Rebuild is a convenient excuse for GMs who dont wish to do their jobs

by SumOil on Feb 1, 2011 7:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah but that would make it easier to justify the 17 year $200 million dollar contract

It's a catastrophic success. (Read: GO OILERS GO)

by Joe Girth on Feb 1, 2011 7:51 PM MST up reply actions  

i am pretty sure that a couple of stanley cups will be better justification for that contract

Rebuild is a convenient excuse for GMs who dont wish to do their jobs

by SumOil on Feb 1, 2011 9:18 PM MST up reply actions  

New Jersey’s had their time to shine, Kovalchuk wont bring that back

It's a catastrophic success. (Read: GO OILERS GO)

by Joe Girth on Feb 2, 2011 8:56 AM MST up reply actions  

i thought we were talking about hall

Rebuild is a convenient excuse for GMs who dont wish to do their jobs

by SumOil on Feb 2, 2011 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

Haha I was trying to take a subtle, though ineffective(like the powerplay!), shot at both the Kovalchuk deal and the Khabi contract. Hell I’d make Hall an owner if he could bring us a couple of cups!

It's a catastrophic success. (Read: GO OILERS GO)

by Joe Girth on Feb 2, 2011 11:17 AM MST up reply actions  

Don’t get me wrong, I think there’s a role for defensive oriented and two-way players, but if I’m going to watch a two and a half hour game in as busy a life as I have these days, then I’d rather watch a Hall that thinks offense the entire game and is a 100 point scorer rather than an 85 point guy who contributes to a number of 2-1 wins. I’m entertained by strong defensive hockey, but I’m far more entertained by dynamic, offense-first players.

I want Hall to play defense when his team doesn’t have the puck, but as a means to recover the puck as quickly as possible to generate chances going the other way.

by David Supina on Feb 2, 2011 12:10 PM MST up reply actions  

I want Hall to play defense when his team doesn’t have the puck, but as a means to recover the puck as quickly as possible to generate chances going the other way.

I am pretty confused as to what you think I’m referring to if not this. I guess I figured you meant that you were hoping that he would “cheat” for offense. If you’re talking about system play (i.e. let’s not play the 1-2-2 the whole game), that’s more up to the coach than any of the individual players, but I do also prefer a stronger forechecking style. And in fact, I’d say that forechecking is one of Hall’s strong points!

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 2, 2011 1:23 PM MST up reply actions  

I’m say play defense with an aggressive, puck-recovery style that perhaps gives up some chances down low, but results in more offense going the other way.

by David Supina on Feb 2, 2011 8:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Hall is pretty big into puck recovery already. I just checked and it didn’t surprise me to confirm that he currently leads the Oilers in takeaways, with 38. Second is Eberle with 34, or even more than Hall on a per game basis, which is just good, good, news AFAIC. Oilers desperately need/ed players who WANT the goddam puck, and we got a couple of live ones there.

Taylor’s not so crafty about positional play, but even there he’ll tend to err on the side of coming too deep into the defensive zone to attack the puck, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Once he gets ahold of the biscuit, he can win a race to space even starting from deep in his own end. It’s like they say in baseball, the one weapon that is equally useful on offence and defence, is speed.

Writer for The Cult of Hockey, The Copper & Blue, and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 3, 2011 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Fair enough. I do like goals, but… I think I like winning more.

Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2011 7:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Haven’t junior scoring rates generally mirrored rates in the NHL, or am I wrong about this?

by Triumph44 on Feb 1, 2011 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Messier seems extreme, on other hand Taylor seems flat out better than Mark did as a teenager.

Yeah, but has anybody ever had the development path of Mark Messier? Straight from tier II junior to major pro, playing out the string for an awful team, then a budding NHL team where he’s not called upon to be a supporting player, he fails anyway, goes to the minors for a bit, and is scoring 50 goals within three seasons? You’ll see ten Taylor Halls before you see that happen again.

Manager at Vancouver Whitecaps and western Canadian soccer website Eighty Six Forever and infrequently-posting flunky at Edmonton Oilers blog The Copper & Blue.

by Benjamin Massey on Feb 1, 2011 6:20 PM MST up reply actions  

There’s a large amount of talking out of butts in these comments…

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 1, 2011 6:20 PM MST reply actions  

On the internet, no less!

by David Supina on Feb 2, 2011 12:11 PM MST up reply actions  

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