How Good Are The Minnesota Wild?
A couple of Wild fans had meltdowns in the comments of the Edmonton-Minnesota postgame because I called the Wild the "Best/worst team in the West", wrote "the Minnesota Wild aren't a good hockey team", and "their record is a house of cards".
Like the the Avalanche and Stars before them, Minnesota is playing well above their heads thanks to unsustainable percentages and out-of-this-world goaltending. But the team struggles at even strength.
The following numbers come from the amazing data set made available by the venerable and terrifying Gabriel Desjardins from behindthenet.ca.
| Category |
Pct | Conf. Rank | League Rank |
| Fenwick Tied | 41.45 | 15 | 30 |
| Fenwick Close | 45.1 | 14 | 28 |
| Fenwick Tied Home | 44.78 | 13 | 28 |
| Fenwick Tied Road | 34.57 | 15 | 30 |
| Fenwick Up 2 | 35.33 | 14 | 28 |
| Fenwick Up 1 | 39.75 | 12 | 26 |
| Fenwick Down 1 | 53.29 | 10 | 20 |
| Fenwick Down 2 | 50 | 14 | 28 |
| Shots on goal Close | 42.12 | 15 | 29 |
| Shots on goal | 45.39 | 14 | 29 |
"Struggles" is an understatement. This is a terrible team at even strength, so bad, in fact, that the 2010-11 Edmonton Oilers are a very close comparable to this year's Wild team:
| Category | Wild 2011-12 | Edmonton 2010-11 |
| Fenwick Tied | 41.45 | 44.09 |
| Fenwick Close | 45.1 | 43.25 |
| Fenwick Tied Home | 44.78 | 43.42 |
| Fenwick Tied Road | 34.57 | 44.8 |
| Fenwick Up 2 | 35.33 | 45.92 |
| Fenwick Up 1 | 39.75 | 38.9 |
| Fenwick Down 1 | 53.29 | 46.39 |
| Fenwick Down 2 | 50 | 56.2 |
| Shots on goal Tied | 42.12 | 43.92 |
| Shots on goal | 45.39 | 45.71 |
They're worse than the Dallas Stars of 2010-11 by the possession metrics. In February, when I handicapped the Pacific Division race, I noted Dallas was sliding fast and probably wouldn't hang on - they didn't. The '09 Avs were also better at even strength play, but the Avs hung on to make the playoffs. Both of these teams were poor even strength teams who got off to fast starts thanks to goaltending and percentages.
| November 30th | ||||||
| Team | Year | GP | PTS | W% | P/G | Pace |
| Colorado | 2009-10 | 28 | 35 | 0.536 | 1.25 | 103 |
| Dallas | 2010-11 | 23 | 29 | 0.609 | 1.26 | 103 |
| Minnesota | 2011-12 | 24 | 31 | 0.583 | 1.29 | 106 |
Minnesota sits in a similar situation as November comes to a close.
| December 31st | ||||||
| Team | Year | GP | PTS | W% | P/G | Pace |
| Colorado | 2009-10 | 42 | 52 | 0.548 | 1.24 | 102 |
| Dallas | 2010-11 | 39 | 48 | 0.564 | 1.23 | 101 |
| Minnesota | 2011-12 | 40 | 0.00 | |||
To keep pace with their comparables, Minnesota needs 19 points in the next 16 games, and that's simply to keep pace with two teams with better underlying numbers who collapsed down the stretch. Even though the Avs collapsed and played like a 79 point team from January 28th on, Colorado banked enough points in the early part of the season to hang on to the 8th spot in the playoffs. Dallas also collapsed and played like a 75 point team from January 21st on, but didn't have enough points banked and missed the playoffs by two points.
So there are three questions at the heart of the matter:
- Are the Wild going to make changes (trade, system) that will allow them to be competitive at even strength?
- If the Wild continue as one of the worst teams in the league at even strength, can they outplay the numbers and get Thomas-level goaltending from Backstrom and Harding?
- If the Wild follow the lead of other bad even strength teams with good starts, will they be able to bank enough points to make the playoffs?
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And now for the rebuttal...
Please allow me to cover the responses of impassioned fans that don’t buy into this hocus pocus goobledeygock underlying numbers bunk.
BUT LOOK AT TEH WINS! YOUR NUMBERZ R WRONG! HOW DO YOU EXPLAN THE WINS IN THE COLUMN! FOR ALL YOUR MATHS ARE BOLONG TO US YOU DON"T BE RIGHT CAUSE THEY BEST TEAM IN STANDINGS!
Also, I certainly hope they bank enough points to finish 9th in the conference, and then don’t get lucky enough to draft an impact player at that position. The Oilers don’t need any help losing games now or in the future =).
"When you find yourself rooting for mediocrity – you might be an Oilers fan." - Neal Livingston
by proxy on Nov 30, 2011 11:57 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
I’m just poking fun at the incoherent ones. Every fan base has them.
OILERZ RULE! TRADE THAT BUM GAGNER! WAIVVE HORCOFF!
"When you find yourself rooting for mediocrity – you might be an Oilers fan." - Neal Livingston
except for canucks
no incoherent fans there
right zona?
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 30, 2011 1:55 PM MST up reply actions
I’m still not sure how they won on Monday. There must have been a rut in the ice or a defective puck or something; my spreadsheet clearly indicated a 5-2 loss.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Does anyone do Wild scoring chances?
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I believe in next year.
hahahhaha
But how can a “stathead” who “doesn’t watch the game” record scoring chances? Let’s just say I’m assuming no to your question.
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I bet we can convince Derek to use them as his freelance project next year.
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by George E. Ays on Nov 30, 2011 4:54 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Unless I find a compelling reason not to, next year I’m tracking Oilers’ D zone exits.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I was going to volunteer to do their chances but I’ve got a lot of on my plate right now. I might go back and track them when Winter Break rolls along.
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by MyFriendCorey on Nov 30, 2011 11:23 PM MST up reply actions
I notice the Wild are 11th in the West in the Clear Victory Standings on the right side of this page. Something tells me the Wild’s fans would consider that an indictment of the Clear Victory Standings, not of the Wild.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
good teams know how to win close games!
by Passive Voice on Nov 30, 2011 1:27 PM MST up reply actions
So do bad teams.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
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Rebuttal
Here’s a rebuttal from a Wild fan, a stats fan, and someone who has watched the games.
First, offensively, the top line is garbage at even strength. Specifically Mikko Koivu, who’s something like 9th on the team in ES goals and points and in the 200’s for NHL players in both categories. He is directly responsible for the poor play of Dany Heatley, who is a terrible fit with Mikko, but has much better ES production.
Yet they still don’t have a great PP, so you can’t say by any stretch they are putting up big numbers. Actually, if you look at ES scoring for the team as a whole pretty much the entire top nine is scoring goals fairly consistently. So there isn’t one or two players carrying the team but a VERY even workload.
Now, onto Fenwick which is becoming a running joke among Wild fans. Shots are a TERRIBLE way to measure a team’s abilities, at least overall. Yes the Wild are giving up a lot of shots and yes they aren’t getting many on goal. That is hugely irrelevant to their on ice success. Anybody who has watched the team can tell you that they are spending less time trapped in their end compared to the last two years.
The difference is that under coach Richards, the defense would give up odd man rushes like candy and they would get far better scoring opportunities. 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 compared to 5-on-5? Yeah, a little easier to score. In fact, if you look at our numbers under Lemaire, we were routinely in the top 5 teams for goals against yet between 10-20 in terms of shots against.
As a result, our goaltending was “bad” from 09-11. Our goaltending was “great” before 2009 and is “unsustainably great” right now. No, it’s the system. It’s the same reason Bryzgalov’s numbers spiked under Tippett, Mike Smith magically “found his game” under Tippett, and Kipper’s numbers were so much better before and after Mike Keenan. And many more examples of the same.
You’re using the Fenwick to compare a run and gun team like Chicago, who’s +6.5 in shot differential when tied, vs a (call it a trap I guess, though it’s 2-1-2) Minnesota team who’s -6.5 in the same scoring. Yet the teams are 1 and 2 in the West. Doesn’t correlate too strongly. I’ll be sure to pass along some more detailed analysis when I can get to it where I’d like to actually run the correlation strength of the Fenwick to standings and see how far off it really is.
I think everyone is agreed that the correlation between Fenwick and standings is only modest after 20 games. What’s in dispute is whether that’s because the standings are skewed by shooting/save percentage noise or because Fenwick isn’t terribly meaningful.
And this article pretty strongly suggests that the answer is the former, that after 20 games you’ll do a much better job predicting the next 60 by using Fenwick/Corsi tied than by using the current standings.
So that’s the root of the debate. Nobody is saying that the correlation between Fenwick and wins is extremely high after 20 games; what they’re saying is that the correlation between (Fenwick in the first 20) and (wins in the last 60) is higher than the correlation between (wins in the first 20) and (wins in the first 60).
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Nov 30, 2011 2:54 PM MST up reply actions 7 recs
Erm, that last sentence should end with “(wins in the first 20) and (wins in the last 60).”
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Thanks for that link, and that’s very similar to what I plan on analyzing. I did want to see about the Fenwick and shots being a false predictor of success in general though. I’ll take a closer look at that site and build that into my future article.
So far, all of the evidence points to Fenwick being a good predictor. If you can put together an article showing that they’re a false predictor, and that there’s something better out there, then I’m sure it will generate a lot of attention.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Nov 30, 2011 5:08 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Has Gabe got his team shot-quality stuff up going back that far? Seems like you should be able to check shot-quality for/against for the seasons in question, and determine whether they account for the difference in results. Based on this, I’m guessing no.
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Has there been a sharp change in shot quality this year? Enough to explain more than the expected tenth or so of the difference between prediction and reality?
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Robertson's Rants - Exceedingly occasional, lengthy ramblings on hockey topics, hosted at Puck Podcast. And no, my name's not Doug.
Let’s get a few things straight:
1) Bryzgalov as a starter:
2010-11: .931 EV sv% (Tippett)
2009-10: .928 (Tippett)
2008-09: .918 (Gretzky)
2007-08: .934 (Carlyle + mostly Gretzky)
Looks like he found his stride under Gretzky after being released by ANA.
2) Smith had the best year of his career with Melrose and Tocchet as his coaches.
3) Lemaire “shot quality” disappeared in 07-08 and 08-09, but Harding and Backstrom still had good numbers:
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/10/28/1777880/better-late-than-never-minnesota-wild
4) The #1 team in shot metrics in 2009-10 was Chicago (won cup); in 2008-09, it was Detroit (lost cup); 2007-08 also Detroit (won cup.) That’s at least as strong as your claim that Minnesota and Chicago being tied with 31 points after 24 games negates shot metrics.
5) And this is the most important point…I don’t see anything in what you’ve written here that gives us any insight into evaluating teams. You reject shot metrics, and I understand as well as anyone where they fail, but you’re telling us that Minnesota’s goalies have the best save percentage of any tandem post-lockout because of odd-man rushes and other things that only you and other people who drink their beer in front of the TV in Minnesota can know. If you had some evidence of this, perhaps if you wrote down the number of odd-man rushes in every game, then we might be able to lend some credence to your analysis. But I honestly think you’re just here to defend “your team” and you’re coming up with after-the-fact justifications to convince yourself that Bodog is wrong in having MIN tied for 8th in the West.
by Hawerchuk on Nov 30, 2011 3:58 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
4) The #1 team in shot metrics in 2009-10 was Chicago (won cup); in 2008-09, it was Detroit (lost cup); 2007-08 also Detroit (won cup.) That’s at least as strong as your claim that Minnesota and Chicago being tied with 31 points after 24 games negates shot metrics.
Shot differential alone is a decent predictor of success. That shouldn’t be difficult for even the most traditional numbers fan to understand.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
But it doesn’t take into account the quality shots differential!
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 30, 2011 7:06 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I did say “decent”, not perfect.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I know people quote fenwick scores and corsi
a lot when talking about the wild….but at the end of the day all that really matters is there point total at the end of the season. As a wild fan i could care less about fenwick scores as long as they find some way to make the playoffs(yes i know that’s a fat chance) i could see them collapsing in on themselves like a dying star(or in the wild’s case…not a star). all that last sentence shows is that I’m terrible at witty comments.
but at the end of the day all that really matters is there point total at the end of the season.
Is it useful to know and understand the best predictor of that total?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Nov 30, 2011 6:27 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
true statement
But predictions are just that…predictions. We honestly don’t know if either of our teams will do anything this year. Not trying to disrespect the oilers at all because I love the future look of this team. But I just get sick of hearing how bad the wild are…obviously some things are going right for them
by jlarson on Nov 30, 2011 10:07 PM MST via iPhone app reply actions
On Backstrom
Before tonight, some quick math from nhl.com tells me that his career ESS% is .923. This year, not including tonight, it’s .947. How many goalies have sustained a full 2.4% increase in ESS% over their career average after five seasons in the league? Something tells me it’s the same as the number of goaltenders with a career save percentage of 0.923 or above, minimum of 500 games played.
I don’t see why it’s so hard to understand why the Wild are staying afloat, and why we shouldn’t expect this trend to continue.
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by Chase W on Nov 30, 2011 11:12 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
Clear Victories
What is the definition of a Clear Victory? Haven’t spent enough time lurking here :-).
Thanks.
Unless I’m mistaken, the Clear Victory Standings are a teams record in games decided by two or more goals.
by melancholyculkin on Dec 1, 2011 8:27 AM MST up reply actions
With EN goals removed.
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Robertson's Rants - Exceedingly occasional, lengthy ramblings on hockey topics, hosted at Puck Podcast. And no, my name's not Doug.
http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/10/30/2523507/clear-victory-standingsz
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/10/30/2523507/clear-victory-standings
no z.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
Tactical contributor to the Copper & Blue and just as boring on the twitters... @dawgbone98
Thanks!
You guys are pretty amazing with all this work. And I mean the thinking of what to measure next part, as much as the number-crunching and data-compiling.
And I wasn’t sure if Clear Victory was just score, or if some threshold of possession metrics figured into it. Though i suppose a 2-goal loss in a game where you had a clear advantage in possession metrics would be rare, and damned unlucky.
by Georgia_Flyer on Dec 1, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions

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