Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Home/Road Splits
I've been taking some heat from fans (and Bruce...and Scott) who think I'm far too bearish on Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, especially after his hot start to the season. After all, Hopkins has 13 points (7 goals) in 16 games and has been scintillating in the offensive zone. Part of that hot start is due to shooting percentage - his .233 percentage isn't sustainable - and part of it is due to the work Tom Renney has done to put Hopkins into favorable positions and situations. The rest is due to Hopkins' exquisite abilities with the puck.
But I'm still bearish on the youngster's complete game right now. Constant comments about his thievery gloss over his overall struggles in the defensive zone and the pesky fact that the he, along with linemates Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle, tend to get stuck in their own zone quite often. It's more apparent on the road where, thanks to the last change, opposing coaches have targeted Hopkins with their best line much more often.
16 games into the season, the Oilers have played 8 home games and 8 away games. The kid line has been very good at home, but the road struggles show up in the underlying numbers in a stark manner.
Hopkins has been protected both through zonestarts and limiting his faceoffs. His zonestart numbers show he's started over 70% of his shifts in the offensive zone both at home and on the road.
DZ - player on ice for defensive zone faceoff; OZ - player on ice for defensive zone faceoff; NZ - player on ice for defensive zone faceoff; Opct - percentage of faceoffs taken in the offensive zone.
| Hopkins | DZ | OZ | NZ | Opct |
| Home | 11 | 26 | 32 | 0.703 |
| Away | 7 | 27 | 32 | 0.794 |
The strategy has paid off at home, but Hopkins is being targeted on the road. The raw Corsi numbers show how much of a difference home games make for the kid:
| Hopkins | Corsi/60 |
| Home | 18.009 |
| Away | -13.319 |
Adjust his Corsi for his zonestarts:
| Hopkins | Adj Corsi/60 |
| Home | 11.038 |
| Away | -22.198 |
The rookie has had a tough go of it on the road and it's going to continue as long as Tom Renney sticks with the Hall-Hopkins-Eberle line while the Oilers are away from home.
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I hate to say it but its time to break up the kid line and the reason being is they are being checked into the ground and the secondary scoring has dried up on this roadtrip. There are no secrets about the Oilers anymore, most of the offense and offensive opportunities flow through the kid line, shut it down = success aginst Oilers. Maybe you can go back to it when the roadtrip is over.
Just for now until the Oilers can find another trojan horse line for other teams’ best dmen to devour. The Oilers need the matchups in order for the kid line to work in its favor.
the secondary scoring has dried up on this roadtrip.
I’d hazard the reason is because the kid line is taking the best of the opportunities.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Wait a minute, I thought they were getting targeted.
Oilers fan through thick, thin and anorexic. Writer for The Cult of Hockey.
by Bruce McCurdy on Nov 12, 2011 9:00 PM MST up reply actions
They are, but they’re still getting crazy zonestarts.
On this trip, Hopkins has taken 1 defensive zone faceoff.
1 defensive zone faceoff in 5 games. Meanwhile, he’s taken 21 offensive zone faceoffs. That’s the best-ever opportunity.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Unless you think Hall’s line is the secondary scoring, it hasn’t really dried up. It still hasn’t sprouted.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Nov 13, 2011 7:56 AM MST up reply actions
So as an 18-year old, he has a bit of trouble playing heads up against Pavel Datsiuk with two sophomore wingers.
This is supposed to be a problem?
We are a rebuilding team. The kid is learning on the job. He will figure it out.
At this stage of the rebuilding process, the goal is not to win the President’s Trophy. The goal is to win as many as they lose, so humbling the kids a bit on the road, so they see how far they have to go is a good thing, not a bad thing. Now they will be receptive to coaching.
If they don’t begin showing improvement on the road after another 5 to 10 games, I expect Renney will take a different approach, and mix up the lines, and they will understand completely why it is being done.
Remember, at this stage, it is NOT all about winning, it is about winning AND development.
Couldn’t agree more, but I do want to win. I think RNH has still looked good, Hall has moments where I just shake my head he is playing very reckless (Not in a good way where he produces either). However as much as I would like to see the Kid line succeed you can’t help but smile that teams are putting their best shutdown guys against them when they are 18, 19 and 21 (Or is Eberle 20?) Now if the third line could figure it out we might be getting some more goals here.
So as an 18-year old, he has a bit of trouble playing heads up against Pavel Datsiuk with two sophomore wingers.
You’re being purposefully obtuse.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
So as an 18-year old, he has a bit of trouble playing heads up against Pavel Datsiuk with two sophomore wingers.
This is supposed to be a problem?
Sure is. All three should never be out there against Datsyuk all at once. Line Matching 101.
Since Babcock is smart enough to take advantage of his home matchups, Renney should be splitting the kids and giving them veteran help on the road. At least, if he doesn’t want them to get taken to school by Datsyuk. I dunno, maybe he’s showing them how their home results are being paid for. Object lessons can be good things, properly applied.
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I assume those splits are similar for all three players. Any reason why you are targeting just one of them?
Oilers fan through thick, thin and anorexic. Writer for The Cult of Hockey.
Well, that’s a poor reason. Obviously it’s all three of them. Last fall Hall and Eberle were largely sheltered by the best available veteran, Shawn Horcoff. This year RNH has had little such veteran support, other than cameos by Hemsky including much briefer glimpses of The Good Ales. So they’re getting smoked by the likes of Datsyuk. That hardly makes them unique, now does it?
I don’t think Renney minds that they get a taste of this sort of treatment. You can only learn so much about Datsyuk by watching him from the bench. And while you, Derek, consistently focus on “win” strategies, from an organizational perspective there’s still a heavy emphasis on development. Renney has the task of trying to find the balance, and to this point I give him a solid passing grade. Do I agree with his every decision? As if … never has happened, never gonna happen. Second-guessing the coach is one of the joys of fandom. But another is trying to think along with him, what is he trying to accomplish through the decisions he makes?
That said, your point about breaking them up on the road is a solid one, made sense right off the hop. Now that the season has hit the 20% mark and the youngsters have been taken to the woodshed a time or two, hopefully learning their lessons the whole way, maybe Renney will do something different. It’s a long season and the obvious hope is that the trio will ignite some chemistry. Now that they’ve all had a taste of that, I don’t mind the idea of spreading the wealth at evens, but reuniting them on the powerplay. Chemistry lessons every night! That might mean more buggering around in the post-PP shift, but so what, that’s just another chance for the coach to show us his chops. Nothing he doesn’t have to do already with Horcoff and RNH on the same unit.
Oilers fan through thick, thin and anorexic. Writer for The Cult of Hockey.
by Bruce McCurdy on Nov 15, 2011 10:30 AM MST up reply actions
Quit Hating on The Nuge
Scoring Chances
Even Strength
Away +/- subtracted from home +/-
J. EBERLE 31
R. HOPKINS 29
T. HALL 26
C. POTTER 24
L. SMID 22
T. GILBERT 19
T. PECKHAM 14
E. BELANGER 10
R. JONES 9
B. EAGER 9
C. BARKER 8
M. PAAJARVI 8
A. LANDER 7
J. PETRY 7
R. WHITNEY 4
L. OMARK 4
S. GAGNER 4
L. PETRELL 3
A. PLANTE 3
A. HEMSKY 3
S. HORCOFF 2
D. HORDICHUK -1
C. TEUBERT -1
A. SUTTON -2
R. SMYTH -3
Oh! Thanks for this. I forgot I wanted to do an article on this.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
A tale of two teams
The Oilers should ice a “home” lineup as well as an “away” lineup. Good goaltending and some lucky bounces have provided the Oil with points on this roadie, but watching them get overmatched was like watching the horror of the last two season.
Like a bad family vacation, the lesson learned is that the kids need to be separated on the road … Or we’re not stopping for ice cream!
by John Chambers on Nov 13, 2011 6:02 AM MST via mobile reply actions
The Oilers should ice a "home" lineup as well as an "away" lineup. Good goaltending and some lucky bounces have provided the Oil with points on this roadie, but watching them get overmatched was like watching the horror of the last two season.
After three games, I said they’d have to break up that line on the road, which was met with much consternation from, well, everyone.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Not true. I’ve been advocating breaking up the kid-line on the road. In fact, I didn’t want it put together in the first place (and if memory serves me correct, Renney didn’t have them together for the first couple of games).
I’ve been suggesting:
Hall – Gagner – Hemsky
Smyth – Horcoff – Jones
MPS – Nuge – Eberle
Eager – Belanger – Petrell
With those two top lines you can cover the harder line matches and d-zone starts. The new kid line should therefore be able to get soft minutes even on the road.
As for the fourth line, I’m including Eager simply because I don’t believe Renney will drop him for more than the occasional game (‘simply truculent’). However, I’d be very comfortable with:
Omark – Nuge – Eberle
MPS – Belanger – Petrell
as the bottom two lines should ‘truculence’ lose its hallowed status.
by Yeti# on Nov 13, 2011 8:39 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Why do you want to inflate Nugent-Hopkins, Hall’s, and Eberle’s statistics by making it easy on them, dramatically increasing the dollars on their 2nd contract?
The Oilers want them to be able to handle the tough checking lines, and the sooner they are able to handle it, the sooner the Oilers can win a Stanley Cup. Let them have their fun and home, and don’t worry have the hard work they have to learn how to do on the road. If they don’t show slow improvement on the road, then you change things up. But for development purposes, there is no reason to not challenge them..
Last year was all about development. This year is about development and winning as many as you lose. The Oilers aren’t at the stage where winning is everything yet.
I’ll start by saying that if you still think that Nugent-Hopkins is the sixth best player in the organization under twenty-five then I do think you’re too bearish (or way too bullish on a bunch of other guys). Setting that aside, I agree that his line has struggled on the road. The discussion from the last game-day thread (at least from my point of view, apologies if this was unclear) was whether or not a more optimistic view after just three road games was reasonable, which I still think it was. At this point, that position makes less sense to me (though it’s worthwhile to mention that the team as a whole has been worse on the road as opposed to his line in isolation).
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
The discussion from the last game-day thread (at least from my point of view, apologies if this was unclear) was whether or not a more optimistic view after just three road games was reasonable, which I still think it was.
Then, in your mind, was a more pessimistic view reasonable after three home games? If it’s sample size, it cuts both ways.
At this point, that position makes less sense to me (though it’s worthwhile to mention that the team as a whole has been worse on the road as opposed to his line in isolation).
And I posit that much of it has to do with the team sacrificing at even strength for the sake of the Hopkins line.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Then, in your mind, was a more pessimistic view reasonable after three home games? If it’s sample size, it cuts both ways.
As I’ve said before, yes absolutely; as you get more data you can be more confident. But the circumstances of the individual games also matter, and it seemed clear to me that the road matches that the Oilers got in the first three games were not going to be what they looked for going forward. A team like Detroit, which has two very strong lines, is always going to be problematic, but against Minnesota (for example), there was no reason to have the kids out against Koivu consistently, and yet there they were.
And I posit that much of it has to do with the team sacrificing at even strength for the sake of the Hopkins line.
That’s happening at home too, probably moreso since they can actually get the matchups that they want consistently. If Nugent-Hopkins is getting tougher competition on the road because the opposition is getting their match, someone else is freed up, and as a team, they haven’t been able to capitalize.
The biggest fanana of the Havana Bananas.
by Scott Reynolds on Nov 13, 2011 9:13 AM MST up reply actions
Unfortunately 2 of the teams they played against have 2 really good lines (Boston & Detroit) and it’s going to be tough for either of the top 2 lines to get much clearance.
The 3rd line needs some offensive production. They have been okay defensively, but that group needs some pucks to go in for them.
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