The Oilers, Concussions, Ales Hemsky and Steve Staios
by Derek Zona on Jan 19, 2011 1:30 PM MST
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PrintAles Hemsky was removed from the game last night with a concussion. While his medical condition was a surprise to fans, it wasn't a surprise to the Edmonton media. Gene Principe, on the simply awe-inspiring Sportsnet intermission panel, said that Hemsky wasn't feeling well against Anaheim and expressed no surprise at all.
After the game, Tyler hit Twitter, exhorting his followers to hold the Edmonton Media's collective feet to the fire and find out what the actual story behind Hemsky's concussion, and how exactly was it common knowledge among the media, yet not among the Edmonton coaches or management.
The Edmonton media tweeted back. First Dan Tencer:
Then Gene Principe:
And finally, Joanne Ireland gets to the meat of the issue, though I'm not sure if Tencer and Principe purposefully obfuscated Renney's statements or not:
Jim Matheson exposed the issue this morning with the following quote:
"He’s had some symptoms before this game and the doctor looked at him and I don’t know what conclusion they’ve drawn."
--Tom Renney, Postgame press conference, January 19, 2001.
As Tyler mentioned there is a cheekily-named Renney Protocol, but apparently that protocol doesn't apply to possibly debilitating brain injuries, only to knee injuries. To quote Tyler:
If we accept that a) the Renney Protocol prevents anybody from playing who "shouldn’t be in there" and that b) Shawn Horcoff was unable to play while c) Ales Hemsky, with widely known concussion symptoms, was, I think we have to ask the question: is Shawn Horcoff dead?
The team knew that something wasn't right with Hemsky, yet chose not to sit him, or, as Renney said, even find the conclusions from the doctor. Though even Renney's answer is confusing. If Hemsky has taken a number of shots to the head and it was noticeable by the media and the team (enough to involve the team doctor), evaluating Hemsky's condition is as simple as running the concussion baseline tests to determine if Hemsky was impaired. If Hemsky had the baseline test and the Oilers didn't wait for the results before sending him back on to the ice, the NHLPA should be enraged. Figuring all of this out isn't new medicine either. NFL teams have been using "The Steelers Test" since at least 2000. And it's not as if concussion protocols are a new thing -- the first Google result for concussion protocol is the three-page, step-by-step document (PDF WARNING) used by an Ohio high school.
This isn't the first time the Oilers have allowed a concussed man to take the ice for them. In the midst of Steve Staios' first concussion in October of last season, I noted:
Additionally, the Oilers are still monitoring Steve Staios, who returned to the lineup Saturday after sitting out one game with a concussion.
Are the OIlers the only team in the NHL that rush people back from head injuries, or do I have some sort of selection bias?
Staios suffered a concussion in an October 6th game against Dallas, then sat out a game on October 8th against Calgary. He returned October 10th against Montreal, and I noticed that he looked "off" the entire game. Ireland's story was published on October 12th, and that night he was scratched against Nashville. Staios went on injured reserve for post-concussion syndrome and did not return until November 5th against the Rangers. Staios suffered a concussion, bad enough to miss a game, yet was returned to the lineup immediately after that, concussion and all. Even an Ohio high school realizes the severity of brain injuries and mandates six days until game action:
Once you are symptom-free, you may progress the following day to the next step. Day 1 is the day following the 1st symptom-free day!
Day 1) NO activity, complete rest. Stay home from school and no school work or studying.
Day 2) Light aerobic exercise such as walking or stationary cycling. No resistance training.
Day 3) Sport specific exercise – for example, skating and puck handling in hockey, running and ball skills in soccer (NO HEADING): football quarterbacks may resume sideline throwing. An important portion of this step is the addition of one set of low resistance or simple resistance training.
Day 4) Resume non-contact training drills; for example, walk-through pass blocking for football linemen. Add additional sets and higher intensity resistance training.
Day 5) Full contact practice after receiving medical clearance. Do not skip this important step.
Day 6) Game play
If any post-concussion symptoms develop at any stage, drop back to the previous level and try to progress again after 24 hours. No medications may be taken at any step of the progression. This is to prevent masking a more serious underlying condition! You must check in with your athletic trainer every day PRIOR to practice!
Staios had three days off before coming back to game play. Somehow a multi-million dollar organization with access to the country's best medical facilities and doctor's hand-picked by the general manager can't follow a long-established concussion test nor a simple concussion protocol like a high school equipped with a school nurse can.
Remember when Steve Tambellini fired the medical staff and cited a culture change as the reason for doing so? Everything has changed in Edmonton - the players, the coach, the medical staff, the trainers, the assistant coaches, the minor league coaches, everything, except one thing.
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I wonder if there’s going to be a breaking point, where fans say enough is enough and stop spending their time on the Oilers. The Organization is like a junkie at an intervention who hasn’t hit bottom. Nothing’s wrong with them and their actions, everyone else seems to be the problem.
by Bob Arctor on Jan 19, 2011 2:39 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
It only took two years on Long Island.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Cushy gig
I’ve said it before, being the current GM of the Oilers is a great job. Do whatever you want (or don’t want) to do, create gigantic messes, run the team into the basement (by accident or by design) and either blame it on other people or have people leap to your defense.
There is really no excuse for this occurring. None
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game;
It's easy - Lennon
by Bar Qu on Jan 19, 2011 3:18 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
BINGO!
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Management had to have know something. If the didn’t they should be fired for stupidity.
From a business perspective every NHL owner would be better off taking concussions seriously. Rather than having a guy out for a month or more and paying both him and his replacement that whole time, you could lighten the impact on your bottom line by simply making sure that players with symptoms sit out before things get worse. Not to mention that some markets need their stars to sell tickets. Sitting a star out a week might hurt but losing that player for a month will hurt a lot more. Seems simple to me.
Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact.
You make it sound as though he was showing clear concussion symptoms or that he was actually diagnosed with them and the team sent him out to play. Is that what you are saying?
I took the situation as Hemsky was not feeling well for a couple of days with some sinus problems (like many people in the fall and winter) and then someone thought “this could be a concussion issue” and they pulled him.
I haven’t seen the games, but did Hemsky get hit in any of them in a way that should make someone suspect a concussion? Or was it that he was bumped around a little in a way that seemed harmless and only in retrospect it is now suspected that this could have caused damage?
If there was no reason to give a concussion test and there was no reason to suspect a concussion, I am not sure that you can fault the medical staff.
As per the quote from Renney (I presume you mean 2011), I suspect that the doctors looked at him and concluded something like he had a sinus infection. If they concluded that he had a concussion and then let him play, they would be facing malpractice and if the oilers knew, they would be facing some issues as well.
There might be a story here, but from what we know now (the tweets provided tell us nothing other than he was not feeling well – as noted, lots of people don’t feel well because they have colds, flus, sinus infections, etc.) there isn’t one yet.
How can you read Renney’s quote, "He’s had a puck in the head, an elbow in the head, he’s had a stick in the cheek over the last three or four games. " and arrive at sinusitis?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
That quote was AFTER they pulled him from the game and began to think that he could be experiencing concussion symptoms.
I suggested sinusitis because Hemsky indicated that he had some sinus problems before the game. Seems logical that if someone is complaining of sinus pain that they might have a sinus problem. It is not so likely that they have a concussion.
Now, can you more clearly articulate where the Oilers went wrong in this situation. Is there any evidence or even suggestion that Hemsky was demonstrating anything resembling concussion symptoms?
Now, can you more clearly articulate where the Oilers went wrong in this situation.
I did. Above. Read harder.
Is there any evidence or even suggestion that Hemsky was demonstrating anything resembling concussion symptoms?
If Gene Principe noticed it and was confident enough to speak about it during intermission, it was obvious.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
From above:
Gene Principe, on the simply awe-inspiring Sportsnet intermission panel, said that Hemsky wasn’t feeling well against Anaheim and expressed no surprise at all.
Principe said this during intermission. No one on the panel expressed any kind of disagreement or disbelief.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
This seems pretty reasonable to me. A lot of times people end up playing with a concussion because many of the symptoms are similar to flu symptoms. Having said that, if the base-line test isn’t particularly expensive (and my understanding is that it isn’t), I don’t know why you wouldn’t have players do the test every time they show flu symptoms given the physical nature of hockey.
Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?
by Scott Reynolds on Jan 19, 2011 8:05 PM MST up reply actions
That quote was AFTER they pulled him from the game and began to think that he could be experiencing concussion symptoms.
So what you’re saying is that the team saw him get hit in the head three times and no one put together that he could have a concussion until after a third game? Or are you saying they saw him get hit in the head three times but didn’t realize the same guy got hit in the head three times?
And this is somehow your defense of the organization?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
As I understand it, they were relatively minor hits, the kind that players get hit with all of the time. I don’t have the games recorded, and only watched parts of them, but I don’t remember Hemsky going down or any big hits (I may have missed them though if there were).
I think its fine to criticize the organization when they deserve it, but you are pulling together a few bits of information and filling in a a lot of the gaps with speculation.
This is how Renney came off to me as well. There was nothing special about the shots he took, but looking back, Renney (and the organization) figures it’s possible that he suffered a concussion. I still think the prudent thing to do is check anyone who has any concussion symptoms for a concussion (rather than simply assuming, “Oh, it’s a cold” or whatever). It seems like it would be a worthwhile policy for sure, particularly since the players themselves will (almost) always minimize injuries and try to play.
By the way, is it now confirmed that he has in fact suffered a concussion?
Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?
by Scott Reynolds on Jan 19, 2011 9:46 PM MST up reply actions
I had a concussion while playing for my High School team, and the protocol was 10 days symptom free before you could start the 5-step, and if you failed any one of the 5 steps, the entire cycle started over. In hindsight, implementing that program was a very good decision by the Admin.
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Meanwhile, the NHLPA is too busy infighting to try and get an kind of brain protection implemented league wide.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Prudent Oilers monitor Hemsky’s concussion symptoms
Headline says pretty much everything you need to know……
The Edmonton Journal – bastion of journalistic integrity.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Did you even read the article?
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 19, 2011 8:33 PM MST up reply actions
"He didn’t give us any reason to feel like he could not play. He wanted to go back out last night and we held him out," said Renney. "We’re pretty prudent with our people here."
He didn’t give us any reason…
Hemsky, who took a puck in the back of the head, an elbow in the head and a stick in the cheek over the previous three or four games,
…
Very prudent.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
So what is the answer, sit a guy every time he takes a knock in the coconut? You’d be icing rosters of 10 players if you carried it to an extreme.
It’s a judgment call, it relies in part on the player’s judgment, and that of all concerned is notoriously unreliable. Hindsight from the cheap seats, on the other hand …
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 20, 2011 9:55 AM MST up reply actions
There are a few important questions.
1. Did the Oilers know something was wrong with Hemsky? Whether it was perceived sinus issues or fatigue or whatever?
2. Did the Oilers know he took several blows to the head (minor or major) in the games leading up? And did they know this leading up to the game against Minnesota?
3. Did they performan any tests on Hemsky if the answer to the first two was yes?
That’s really what needs to be found out.
The Problem is all the information (different sources) points to the first 2 being yes. The Tencer tweet about him having them going in and Renney’s tweet about the hits to the head. The question is whether they did perform any tests.
Concussions are funny. It doesn’t have to be one hit that does it. It can develop over time. So while none of the 3 previous hits were likely the main culprit, they all could have contributed. The other thing is that they might have done the test and he passed, leading them to think it was just a sinus thing or a cold or whatever.
The players judgement (put me in coach) shouldn’t be a factor… if there is any doubt (especially with the head), keep them out.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
The problem with this is that during the winter and fall season, players have headaches, sinus issues, allergy issues, etc all the time. Also, players take bumps on the head of the type Hemsky did all of the time. Perhaps it would be best to give each and every player a concussion test every week, but it certainly isn’t the standard across the league.
The comment made by the Oilers suggested that Hemsky did not give any indication of a concussion when asked. I don’t think they asked him “Do you have a concussion”, I think they asked him the standard questions – Have you had any dizziness? Any headaches? Any trouble concentrating? Are you secretly batman?, etc. He responded negatively to all of those and thus they concluded that he was ok to play. Now, I am speculating a bit around here, but given that others are making grand leaps in their reasoning, I feel ok doing so.
Sometimes it helps to think of motive – what motive would the Oilers have in putting a concussed player on the ice? They are not really trying to win games, so there is no pressure to do so. What motivation would Tambellini, Lowe, Katz, or Renney have? What motivation would the trainer and medical staff have?
The problem with this is that during the winter and fall seasoThe problem with this is that during the winter and fall season, players have headaches, sinus issues, allergy issues, etc all the time. Also, players take bumps on the head of the type Hemsky did all of the time. Perhaps it would be best to give each and every player a concussion test every week, but it certainly isn’t the standard across the league.
I’m not discounting that there are things that players go through all the time… but when you start getting into headaches and fatigue, that should be an automatic warning sign that hey, maybe we should perform a test. We know these are common symptoms.
The comment made by the Oilers suggested that Hemsky did not give any indication of a concussion when asked. I don’t think they asked him "Do you have a concussion", I think they asked him the standard questions – Have you had any dizziness? Any headaches? Any trouble concentrating? Are you secretly batman?, etc. He responded negatively to all of those and thus they concluded that he was ok to play. Now, I am speculating a bit around here, but given that others are making grand leaps in their reasoning, I feel ok doing so.
Except do we know they asked? The comment suggested by the Oilers only suggests that they knew something wasn’t quite right. It doesn’t say anything about what they did or didn’t ask. And we know they knew he had certain symptoms because they’ved talked about them.
Sometimes it helps to think of motive – what motive would the Oilers have in putting a concussed player on the ice? They are not really trying to win games, so there is no pressure to do so. What motivation would Tambellini, Lowe, Katz, or Renney have? What motivation would the trainer and medical staff have?
The question isn’t whether they intentionally put a concussed player on the ice. The question is whether or not they did enough on their part to make sure he was healthy enough to play. The question is did they fail to take the necessary steps given the information they had?
Like I said, it’s not always 1 blow that leads to a concussion. He may very well have passed a concussion test with flying colours but one hit during the Minnesota game triggered it. The headache may have just been a sinus infection and his “off-ness” might have been the result of medication for that. If that’s the case then the Oilers aren’t at fault, it’s a shit happens sort of thing.
There’s also the option that Hemsky was able to pass the test and hid some of the symptoms (which is also possible, I’ve stupidly done that). Again, that’s not the fault of the team.
But there’s a track record in this organization of players playing when they shouldn’t, and getting re-injured because of it.
Given that track record, it’s a fair set of questions.
In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!
Except do we know they asked? The comment suggested by the Oilers only suggests that they knew something wasn’t quite right. It doesn’t say anything about what they did or didn’t ask. And we know they knew he had certain symptoms because they’ved talked about them.
From Renney:
“He’s had some symptoms before this game and the doctor looked at him and I don’t know what conclusion they’ve drawn.”
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Yeah, I don’t think the Oilers handled this any differently than most NHL teams would have handled it. Having said that, NHL teams in general don’t have a great track record of keeping guys with concussions from playing. Like DB, I don’t think they’re intentionally playing guys with concussions, but I do think the culture of hockey, which makes playing hurt a virtue, has a considerable impact on the decisions being made. Many of the guys running this organization are long-time hockey men and it seems quite likely to me that they look at injury (especially something a player wants to play through, and especially if it’s an important game) quite a bit differently than most of society. Honestly, I admire the toughness displayed by so many of these players when they play through injury, but for me, head injuries are different and teams should most definitely be extra careful (even with other injuries, you’d think the financial commitment made to the players would often result in a careful approach, but it doesn’t really seem to).
Abney, Abney, oh why TF did we have to pick Abney?
by Scott Reynolds on Jan 20, 2011 1:15 PM MST up reply actions
I think they asked him the standard questions
They either tested him against the baseline or they didn’t. There are no “Standard questions”.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Sometimes it helps to think of motive – what motive would the Oilers have in putting a concussed player on the ice?
Why did they let Staios back on the ice three days after a concussion last season?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Derek starts every analysis with the indisputable fact that Oilers management and staff are fully incompetent in every single act that they take. This makes things a lot easier for him.
A very nice change from the usual ‘Oiler management and staff are smart and do a good job’ from nearly everywhere else
by DarrenV on Jan 20, 2011 2:04 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
And you have made an internet schtick by disguising intellectual dishonesty as naivete.
At least I’ve got the frame of reference of an incompetent management and staff to go on. The “naivete” wore off long ago.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
And he gets proven right over and over again. What does that tell you?
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by PPP on Jan 21, 2011 5:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s a judgment call, it relies in part on the player’s judgment, and that of all concerned is notoriously unreliable.
Exactly, so player safety should be front and center.
Hindsight from the cheap seats, on the other hand …
Ah yes, I’m taking cheap shots. I’ve never written about this before, because this is the first time the Oilers have exposed players to further injury. Thank goodness.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Link to Terry Jones' take, Edmonton Sun
He mentions that trainer T.D. Forss pulled Hemsky out of the game.
I was pretty pissed when I heard Hemsky had symptoms before the game, but after hearing what Hesmky said today, as well as Renney, there is not as much “there” there to be enraged about.
I’m guessing Ken Lowe wouldn’t-a done that.
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 20, 2011 9:56 AM MST up reply actions
As much I as I like to make fun of Oiler’s management and there ineptitude, I do have trouble ragging on the Oilers for this one. Sure they could have screwed up and pushed Hemsky. But it’s also entirely possible they did what they could based on the info they had at the time.
Connecting the dots afterwards is easy, and easy to bitch on the Oiler’s management. I really want to join in on this. But I have been injured countless times myself, and it’s quite likely it happened as the Oilers say. Unfortunately for my fun.
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