5 Tool Players & Standardized Scouting
One of the great things about the interweb is that whenever you have an idea, you can bet that someone smarter out there has already written about it better than you could. I have been kicking around the concepts of standardized scouting reports and also pirating established baseball concepts and employing them in hockey. These two articles hit both these ideas out of the park.
For the link-impaired, here is the concept (courtesy of Corey Pronman):
"In baseball, for decades they’ve used their own scouting system called the 20-80, which quantifiably identified how good a player was, but more importantly gave scouts everywhere a universal language on how to communicate the level of a particular tool or the quality of the player in an objective manner. The tools that baseball used this system for included hitting, power, fielding, running etc. Transferring this over to hockey we are going to stick to these tools:"
- Skating (Acceleration, stride, top speed, turning/edge control)
- Puck Skills (Passing, stick-handling etc.)
- Shot (Accuracy, velocity, release)
- Physical Game (Size, strength, able to handle physicality)
- Hockey Sense (Decision-making, awareness, smarts)
Here is the scale:
- 20: Can barely perform this skill, there are 13 and 14 year-old amateur players who can do this skill better. Think Derek Boogaard’s hockey sense for example.
- 30: Significantly below average (minus minus), isn’t beer league quality but it’s nowhere near the NHL level. Think Georges Laraque’s puck skills or Hall Gill’s skating.
- 40: Below NHL average (minus), this skill isn’t completely out of the league but it’s still a good notch below. Examples are Marc-Andre Fleury’s rebound control or Jack Johnson’s hockey sense.
- 50: NHL average, think Marco Sturm’s puck skills, Justin Williams' shot.
- 60: Above NHL average (plus), this is an all-star level skill. Examples are Jonathan Toews’ skating, Mike Richards' physical game, David Booth’s shot.
- 70: Significantly above average (plus plus), this skill is one of the best in the game and is in an elite class. This is a grade rarely given out. Steven Stamkos’ shot, Chris Pronger's physical game, Nicklas Lidstrom’s hockey sense, and Alex Ovechkin’s skating are examples.
- 80: Generational talent, an extremely rare grade to be given out for any skill. Examples of what an 80 grade is include Bobby Orr’s skating, Al MacInnis’ shot, Wayne Gretzky’s hockey sense.
There would be the rare example of someone falling outside of this scale to a handful of people in the existence of hockey, in which case we’d grade it 20- or 80+ An 80+ would be something very other-worldly and will likely never be repeated such as Dominik Hasek’s reflexes."
I ran a few Oilers through this and came up these numbers.
(Skating/Puck Skills/Shot/Physical Game/Hockey Sense)
| Player | Skating | Puck Skills | Shot | Physical Game | Hockey Sense |
| Dustin Penner | 55 | 60 | 50 | 70 | 50 |
| Ales Hemsky | 60 | 70 | 55 | 55 | 50 |
| Sam Gagner | 55 | 60 | 55 | 40 | 60 |
| Tom Gilbert | 60 | 60 | 50 | 50 | 55 |
| Sheldon Souray | 40 | 50 | 70 | 60 | 50 |
| Ladislav Smid | 50 | 40 | 30 | 60 | 50 |
Argue away, come up with some of your own.
Anyway, the point I am trying to make is not just to judge a couple of players on the Oilers with a new shiny toy, but as Mr. Pronman hopes, to standardize the way we scout players. I humbly submit that we run with this idea here in the Oilogosphere, which is at the forefront of new ways of thinking about hockey and statistics.
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Funny that you did this Matt. I actually have this stickied on my ideas board as a “to do”
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
For the rookies
Hall
60/60/70/60/50
Paajarvi
60/50/50/50/50
Eberle
40/60/55/40/60
Thats my estimate for them, I think its reasonable.
I think that this kind of scouting would be challenging to do well, especially if you’re going to be giving out half-points (I’m also not too sure why he decided to multiply everything a factor of 10, but whatever). Different observers would surely be inclined to give different ratings for certain attributes. As such, I wouldn’t characterize this as an objective analysis (not that objective analysis is the be-all end-all anyway), although hopefully a wide variety of competent observers would come to similar conclusions.
Beyond that, these specific categories strike me as overly broad and generally unhelpful. Acceleration and top speed being mixed together, stick-handling mixed with passing, and so forth. Grading people out in these five categories seems kind of like a waste of time since the rankings only have value if you already know the kind of game being described. Take a guy like Ales Hemsky compared to J.F. Jacques. Hemsky is very willing to take a hit to make a play and fight for the puck along the boards. He maybe deserves a 50 in that category (roughly what you gave him). Now Jacques can’t win battles to save his life but really likes to hit people. Most would describe his physical game as a strength, but in reality, he’s not able to leverage it to create value all that often. He’s probably about a 50 as well, but for completely different reasons. In the end, a “50” rating, is meaningless because if you tell me that some Russian guy I’ve never seen is a “50” in some category I still don’t know what his specific strengths and weaknesses are there. I’d need an actual scouting report.
Hi Scott,
I combined the tools as it is for the basis of simplicity. For the hardcore hockey fan, I can see how you would want to delve more in-depth, but to the casual fan especially those to scouting, breaking a player down into 15+ categories didn’t seem like a wise move. Actually the tools as they are now are actually how some NHL teams look at it, some if not most only use 4 and one of them would be work ethic (although they don’t grade on this scale at least to my knowledge).
I usually will supplement the grades with a write-up report like I did here for the Oilers:
http://premiumscouting.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30:edmonton-oilers&catid=21:teams&Itemid=8
(Waits for Cooper n Blue prospects faithful to jump on me over rankings)
To illustrate some finer details about the player. I would never just give grades and leave it as such as it’s not an objective system, rather it’s just a better way of illustrating your point rather than saying, “he’s a good skater” which I explained in the intro to the column.
The reason for the scale as well in terms of 20-80 is described in the column as well.
Cheers.
by Corey Pronman on Aug 2, 2010 7:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for the response Corey. After clicking through, I find the text reports way more helpful than the numbers. I don’t find that the numbers add anything, as they’re just a simplified version of the text. It just seems like they hide so much for not much gain. But that may just be my own unfamiliarity. As for the scale, it just seems odd to use 20-80 rather than 1-7. There are, after all, only seven choices.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 2, 2010 11:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I’m with Scott on this one. I think this over-complicates things. If I may
* Skating (Acceleration, stride, top speed, turning/edge control) – this is a mismash of all of them. Either rank the overall package and ignore the individual pieces or break them out.
* Puck Skills (Passing, stick-handling etc.) – passing and stick-handling don’t go hand-in-hand and shouldn’t really be in the same category
* Shot (Accuracy, velocity, release) – Fine.
* Physical Game (Size, strength, able to handle physicality) – the more I think about this, this is too nebulous and certainly not easily accessible to the average fan. Dustin Penner and Tom Gilbert are perfect examples of players that handle physical play just fine but aren’t traditional physical players.
* Hockey Sense (Decision-making, awareness, smarts) – Fine
Simplify it – Skating, shooting, passing, defense, brain…
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
For skating I in the end do rank the overall package, so I think we’re on the same page.
Puck skills was the big one I debated splitting up or not, however I went with that as it’s what the scouting circle does at the moment. If there’s enough public demand I will change it in the future.
Physical game doesn’t just mean guys who hit a lot, it’s a combination of size/strength, battle ability, proponess to engage etc.
I also didn’t include defense because IMO it’s an aspect of hockey sense, physical game and skating.
@Bus: Ya I stand by that, then again I’m higher on MPS than most. I love his skating.
by Corey Pronman on Aug 2, 2010 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t understand in the example how Hasek’s reflexes are 80+, but Gretzky’s hockey sense is not. His ability to understand the game was the single greatest skill that any hockey player ever has had, and likely ever will have. If Hasek’s reflexes were better than Gretzky’s hockey sense there would be no debate that he was the greatest goalie of all time. Gretzky really did not have THAT good skills in other areas, it was purely hockey sense that made him the greatest player of all time, and by an extremely wide margin. Just look at the numbers. Look at them. No one comes close. You can argue Lemeuix I suppose, and Orr as well, but neither of them accomplished what Gretzky did. All because of his hockey sense. If that’s not 80+ nothing is.

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