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Top Six Forwards

It's important to remember that the language we use tends to hide certain aspects of reality and highlight others. The first time I came across this idea was in a book about metaphor by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson; it's about thirty years old now, so it's not exactly on the cutting edge of linguistic analysis, but it's very readable, even if you don't have a background in linguistics, so I'd certainly recommend it for someone who's interested but doesn't know where to start. Anyroad, I bring that up here because I'd like to take a closer look at what we're hiding and highlighting in one of the basic categories we often use to describe hockey teams. It seems like hockey people have been using "Top Six Forward" since I first started watching hockey. After the jump, I'll take a brief look at whether or not that makes sense.

Star-divide

The first thing I'd like to note is that each team is different and that teams aren't static. Most teams don't have a dedicated checking line, but a few of them do. Every team deals with in-season trades, and injuries, which can change the role of certain players in the middle of the year. Not every team has a four-minute per game goon, but some of them do. So when I'm looking at whether or not a "Top Six Forward" is the kind of thing that makes sense, I'm speaking generally.

So how to measure? Well, I looked at even-strength ice time across all thirty teams in an effort to see whether the idea of "Top Six" and "Bottom Six" made sense. I ranked all of the players who played in at least forty games by even-strength ice time and put the players into groups (1-3F, 4-6F, 7-9F, 10-15F) using the information from Behind The Net. I then took the average ice time of the players in each group and compared. Trades were an obstacle in this exercise in that players were counted based on the team they finished with, so Ilya Kovalchuk counted as a Devil, Olli Jokinen as a Ranger, Matt Stajan as a Flame, and so on. The result is that the Toronto data just doesn't work (they only had nine guys qualify, and one of them was Colton Orr) and that some of the other teams are a bit wonky, but overall, here's how things shook out:

Top_six_forwards_medium

I decided to include all of the individual team data, because it reminds us that each team is different. A team like Pittsburgh is probably best thought of as having a "Top Three," "Middle Six," and "Bottom Three" (although in their case it's five guys). Or at least, they would be except that their top three forwards by ice time - Sidney Crosby, Evegeni Malkin, and Jordan Staal - often played on three different lines. Even Washington, who looks like they have a top line way out in front, actually have both Alex Ovechkin and Alexander Semin in that group, two guys who spent a lot of time playing apart. Another team with a strong "3,6,3" feel is the Chicago Blackhawks who gave lots of EV ice time Jonathan Toews, Patick Kane, and Marian Hossa, and almost none to the bottom of their roster. For other teams, the "6-6" set-up makes sense. The San Jose Sharks, for example, have a huge gap between the 4-6 group and the 7-9 group. In their case, the big fall actually takes place after seven guys (Manny Malhotra is the seventh man), so it would likely have been appropriate to talk about their "top seven" a year ago. The Lightning are another team that had six guys clearly getting more ice time than the rest.

There's a clear gap between each group in the chart, but on average, the gap between 1-3 and 4-6 is very close to the gap between 4-6 and 7-9. By far the biggest gap is between forwards 7-9 and the guys at the bottom of the roster. It seems silly, then, to group these players together. It would make much more sense to talk about a team's "Top Nine," especially since that extra ice time over the bottom group usually comes in high-leverage situations (teams will often start to run three lines as games move into the third period). Exactly what that top nine looks like (is there a checking line? is it PvP?) may be different, but teams do usually have at least nine players who take a regular shift for all three periods night after night. I bring this up because in recent discussions I've heard that the team "doesn't have room for Cogliano in the top six," or that "Paajarvi is better off in the minors than in the bottom six." Honestly, it seems to me like "top nine" and "on the fourth line" are much better groupings in each case. And if that's true, maybe there is room for Cogliano and Paajarvi after all.

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Fun to see proof that someone lied to Derek Boogaard:

""I still think I can do more. From what I understand, (coach) John (Tortorella) likes to roll all four lines in New York, which is good.""

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by George E. Ays on Aug 18, 2010 12:26 PM MDT reply actions  

Yeah, he’s probably slated for Jody Shelley’s ice time, and Shelley played under seven minutes per game. Then again, Shelley wasn’t making the kind of money Boogaard will be getting. That could be a really interesting dynamic at the start of the year.

by Scott Reynolds on Aug 18, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

donald brashear was making that kind of money, however, and he got 6:15 a game.

by Triumph44 on Aug 18, 2010 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Brashear was used on the “1st line” at least once that I can remember.

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by George E. Ays on Aug 18, 2010 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Totally off-topic, but Shaugger’s twitter has Pisani signing with the Hawks.

I, for one, am incredibly happy for him!

by Downright Fierce on Aug 18, 2010 2:37 PM MDT reply actions  

Outstanding work, Scott. Something very like this has been on my “to do” list, and I have to say the actual results square very nicely with my expectations.

I agree wholeheartedly that you need to think of a top 9, since teams have gone with a minimum three-line rotation ever since I’ve been following the game, which is to say since the dawn of time. The fourth line (“the spares” when I started, just two extra forwards) have always been slotted in to a very large degree. Looking at the above maybe a team like Carolina does a 1-2-3-1-2-4 rotation once in a while, but much more common would be 1-2-3-1-2-3-4.

on average, the gap between 1-3 and 4-6 is very close to the gap between 4-6 and 7-9. By far the biggest gap is between forwards 7-9 and the guys at the bottom of the roster.

Skipping a step, on average, the gap between 1-3 and 7-9, is very close to the gap between 7-9 and the guys at the bottom.

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by Bruce McCurdy on Aug 18, 2010 5:12 PM MDT reply actions  

Skipping a step, on average, the gap between 1-3 and 7-9, is very close to the gap between 7-9 and the guys at the bottom.

Indeed. You may have noticed my regular salary cap guidelines have a “Top 3” and a “Middle 6” grouping for the forwards, partly because elite talent is so much more expensive, and often includes one or two guys who play a lot, and partly because I want to make the major “value to the team” separation at 9 forwards instead of 6.

by Scott Reynolds on Aug 18, 2010 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting point...

I can tell you, Bruce, that jacques martin ran the 123-124 from November (when they sent away Latendresse) till march (when Moore took #3 duites). It mostly was so because both bottom lines sucked.

by Olivier on Aug 19, 2010 6:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Awesome work, Scott.

I suspect a lot of the aforementioned discussion surrounding top-six forwards was overheard over at PPP. This is some good food for thought.

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by JP Nikota on Aug 18, 2010 6:59 PM MDT reply actions  

Very nice!

And it makes a lot of sense. Washington’s is colored by two things:

  1. Ovi has a tendency to take maddeningly long shifts, often staying out for the entire 2m PP if the team is down a goal.
  2. The SOB Line (Semin / Ovechkin / Backstrom) only rolls on the PP or if the team needs a goal. It’s not a regular line because it becomes top-heavy and has a tendency to be overly cute. Usually Semin’s at 2RW and Mike Knuble rolls at 1RW to provide a net presence for Ovi.

Taking those two into account, I wonder if that gap between 1 and 2 closes any?

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by gotsparkly on Aug 19, 2010 6:32 AM MDT reply actions  

Keep in mind that this is only EV ice time, so the long shifts on the PP aren’t going to skew things either way. If anything, you’d expect them to reduce the ice time at EV, but Ovechkin is the runaway team leader there (and among the league leaders). Things really even out once you hit the fifth guy, which makes sense with what you’ve said above (the top four being Semin, Ovechkin, Backstrom and Knuble).

by Scott Reynolds on Aug 19, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

In many ways, the only real difference between the Caps 2nd and 3rd lines is the fact that Semin is usually on the 2nd line. The remainder of the cast of characters on those two lines have spent significant time on either the 2nd or 3rd line. Flash and Fehr, this year’s third line wingers, would be the first guys moved up to the Top 6 in case of injuries. Laich was usually on the 3rd line in 2008-2009 but on the 2nd line during 2009-2010. Brendan Morrison was on both the 2nd and 3rd line. Belanger was usually on the 3rd line after he was acquired but spent time on the 2nd as well.

Rocking the Red since 1975

by CapsFan75 on Aug 19, 2010 7:31 AM MDT reply actions  

Unreal post Scott.

I heard a ton about Getzlaf playing huge (Dmen-like) minutes in ANA and I guess that’s hard fact. Also look at the split in Detroit, they obviously really lean on Datsyuk and Zetterberg (as well Lidstrom-Rafalski… +/-, as flawed as it is, clearly separates the wheat from the chaff on that roster)

by R O on Aug 19, 2010 8:02 AM MDT reply actions  

Thanks, RO. The Ducks really do lean hard on their top guys: Getzlaf led the league in EV TOI per game among forwards and Perry was third. They were both in the top ten in 2008-09 too. Even Bobby Ryan joined them in the top twenty this season. You’re absolutely right about Detroit too. It’s really a “top two” for them, although Franzen played almost as much when he was in the lineup. If he had made the 40-game cut, they’d look even more top-heavy.

by Scott Reynolds on Aug 19, 2010 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is fantastic, thanks.

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by MikeyGreen on Aug 19, 2010 2:10 PM MDT reply actions  

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