Taylor Hall, Jordan Eberle, Magnus Paajarvi & Unrealistic Expectations
We can't afford to be innocent
Stand up and face the enemy
It's a do or die situation
We will be Invincible
--"Invincible", Pat Benatar
The Edmonton Oilers will play a gaggle of youngsters this season. Depending on the hot hands in training camp, there is a very good possibility that eighteen-year-old Taylor Hall, nineteen-year-old Magnus Paajarvi and twenty-year-old Jordan Eberle, will all start the 2010 season in Edmonton. Twenty-three-year Linus Omark, has a shot at the team, and they'll all join grizzled veteran twenty-one-year-old Sam Gagner on one of the youngest rosters in the league.
Edmonton is abuzz with an underpinning of excitement as the most-talented collection of young players to wear Oiler silks since 1980 will assemble at Rexall Place in less than a month. The optimism is justified - three top five talents plus the most famous Major Junior player in a decade - but are the expectations for this young group too much?
No other grouping of hockey writers harps on the ability to win battles, retrieve the puck, push the play and drive the puck up ice more than those new media authors writing about the Edmonton Oilers. As the topic of conversation has turned to the aforementioned kids, those writers have remained even-keeled. Most fans have not. After the jump, we'll look at the reasons for long-term optimism and short term understanding when it comes to this new Treehouse Gang.
Since 2007, fifty-three players aged twenty and under have played a season of more than forty games. I've listed them below:
Four eighteen-year-olds have turned the trick, including one we're all very familiar with:
- Sam Gagner, Evander Kane, Ryan O'Reilly, Steven Stamkos
Nineteen nineteen-year-olds make the list:
- Josh Bailey, Mikkel Boedker, Matt Duchene, Sam Gagner, Colton Gillies, Patrick Kane, Milan Lucic, Peter Mueller, David Perron, James Sheppard, Jordan Staal, Steven Stamkos, Brandon Sutter, John Tavares, Jiri Tlusty, Jonathan Toews, Kyle Turris, Jakub Voracek, James Wright
The number of twenty-year-olds is significantly larger as Major Junior careers come to an end and many European players come to the NHL after a couple of years of professional hockey in the homeland. Thirty players fall into this category:
- Nicklas Backstrom, Josh Bailey, Jamie Benn, Patrik Berglund, Andrew Cogliano, Sidney Crosby, Nick Foligno, Michael Frolik, Sam Gagner, Martin Hanzal, Patrick Kane, Phil Kessel, Anze Kopitar, Sergei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse, Bryan Little, Milan Lucic, Oscar Moller, Peter Mueller, Kyle Okposo, David Perron, Wayne Simmonds, James Sheppard, Vladimir Sobotka, Jordan Staal, Brandon Sutter, Viktor Tikhonov, Jonathan Toews, James van Riemsdyk, Jakub Voracek
The players on this list come from teams of varied natures, but twenty of the kids on this list played for a playoff team. I compiled average Corsi, relative Corsi, even-strength on-ice goals for, even-strength on-ice goals against, even-strength goal differential, qualcomp and qualteam (in this case, I've used Corsi qualcomp and Corsi qualteam). Each of these stats is courtesy of the dashing Gabriel Desjardins at www.behindthenet.ca:
| Age | Corsi/60 | Rel Corsi | GFON/60 | GAON/60 | GDIFF/60 | QC Rk | QT Rk |
| 18 | -7.41 | -1.05 | 2.47 | 2.75 | -0.29 | 8/12 | 7/12 |
| 19 | -3.11 | 0.07 | 2.50 | 2.58 | -0.08 | 6/12 | 6/12 |
| 20 | 0.13 | 3.68 | 2.58 | 2.42 | 0.16 | 7/12 | 6/12 |
The progression of an NHL player is quickly noticeable in this table. The results in each category improve over each year. The players are asked to take on second and third minutes and generally struggle until age 20, when they finally see their Corsi, relative Corsi and goal differential move into the black. But this list includes two and three-year veterans, and the Oilers have three kids that will be making their debut in the NHL, so I've compiled the same numbers for only rookies aged 18-20 since 2007. There are only thirty-five players on this list:
| Age | Corsi/60 | Rel Corsi | GFON/60 | GAON/60 | GDIFF/60 | QC Rk | QT Rk |
| 18 | -7.41 | -1.05 | 2.47 | 2.75 | -0.29 | 8/12 | 7/12 |
| 19 | -2.80 | -0.51 | 2.45 | 2.59 | -0.14 | 6/12 | 6/12 |
| 20 | 0.55 | 3.55 | 2.45 | 2.25 | 0.20 | 7/12 | 6/12 |
The same pattern exists here as well, even though these players aren't improving because of NHL experience. Both tables show the difficulties that even the most talented young players experience in their early years in the league. Eberle, Svensson and Hall will experience those same difficulties, especially because the Oilers have only three players capable of carrying the play on their own and a fourth, Sam Gagner, ready to break out. None of the three will be able to hitch a ride with a player proven capable of winning battles, retrieving the puck, pushing the play and driving the play up ice -- they'll have to do that on their own.
For those of you interested, I've created a scatter diagram of the the Corsi and qualcomp relationship. The vertical access is qualcomp percentage, or his qualcomp rank ratio expressed as a percentage. The lower the percentage, the more difficult the qualcomp. Note that four of the fifty-three players played tough minutes prior to turning twenty-one. The far right markers playing second-toughs are Nicklas Backstrom and Jonathan Toews as twenty-year-olds. Backstrom is the high-water mark, having played with Alex Ovechkin against second-toughs. Click on the graph to expand the view.
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Thanks for the heads-up, it’s been fixed.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 15, 2010 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Cripes...
…the numbers are still a shade small, but this is a great argument for not burning years of service and entry level contracts on 18 and 19 yr olds. These are things we have been saying since the lockout (and prior as well, although the cost/benefit was a little different) but this is a decent dataset to support that. I’d like to see the zone data alongside this – my suspicion is that these players and the numbers you have already showed are flattered by that.
One other thing that comes to mind – the PP numbers for these players might look a little or a lot better. That would help to explain some of the NHL attraction.
I had someone email me to ask if I could remove Crosby’s 20 year old season from the numbers and see what happens. I’ll have it up tomorrow.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Excellent work, Derek, and interesting results. One potential landmine is that player age is not commensurate with year of eligibility, as the deadlines are different (Sep 15 for draft eligibility, Jan 31 for “hockey age”) e.g. Gagner was considered an 18-year-old but Tavares a 19 y.o. when both made the jump in their first possible season. So the pool of guys who could have made it as 18-year-olds is reduced.
I also wonder if the underagers as a group will be punished somewhat by factors beyond their control, e.g. they wouldn’t have made their teams as underagers if their teams weren’t shitty to begin with. The high draft picks especially so, as they are joining lottery teams and will be more likely to be thrust into roles beyond their capabilities. Their results are bound to be poor, even as they may be the best options for their rebuilding teams.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
Which is exactly why I’m cringing at the inevitable Hall-Seguin comps. Boston is one of the least shitty teams to have that high of a pick in recent memory.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
I wonder if the Bruins aren’t planning to send Seguin back for another year of junior. Hall skipped the Team Canada junior camp this summer because he expects to be playing for the Oilers when the call comes, but Seguin was there. And the Bruins don’t need the help nearly as bad, so Seguin doesn’t need to be rushed into a role with the team.
by despisethesun on Aug 15, 2010 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions
That’s also true, though I wonder if Seguin would benefit much from being back in junior. This is, again, where the NHL-or-bust rule really fucks things up: both Hall and Seguin should probably be playing in the AHL this year, but neither one will.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Excellent work, Derek, and interesting results. One potential landmine is that player age is not commensurate with year of eligibility, as the deadlines are different (Sep 15 for draft eligibility, Jan 31 for "hockey age") e.g. Gagner was considered an 18-year-old but Tavares a 19 y.o. when both made the jump in their first possible season. So the pool of guys who could have made it as 18-year-olds is reduced.
Yeah, I thought about using eligibility, but I like the age thing better in this case.
I also wonder if the underagers as a group will be punished somewhat by factors beyond their control, e.g. they wouldn’t have made their teams as underagers if their teams weren’t shitty to begin with. The high draft picks especially so, as they are joining lottery teams and will be more likely to be thrust into roles beyond their capabilities. Their results are bound to be poor, even as they may be the best options for their rebuilding teams.
I’m going to do a bit more work on that as well. The thing is – they’re still playing lower-level minutes and they still can’t get their relative Corsi, not just raw Corsi, in the black.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Interesting stuff, Derek.
I’d love to see that graph annotated with the names of some notables besides the two you identified (Backstrom and Toews). For example:
- Where are the 3 Sam Gagner dots?
- Where’s Cogliano @ 20?
- Where are Stamkos and Tavares (and can we expect Hall to be similar @ 18?) ?
- Who is represented by the dots on the extreme right? Extreme left?
- Other outliers?
Bonus marks if you use three colors for the 18, 19, and 20 year olds, respectively.
Good stuff Derek. I assume that you have this stuff in a spreadsheet, and if so, would you be willing to post the median for this stuff. The 18 y/o’s, for instance, are getting their Corsi killed by Ryan O’Reilly’s -13.65/60. All three of the other guys are above the average (Gagner at -7.29, Stamkos at -3.96, and Kane at -3.33). I’m curious about the medians for the larger samples because I wonder if this is a case of a few players who really aren’t ready for the role the team has them in making the whole group look worse than they really are.
RQ’s point about FO’s above could also be fruitful, though as Bruce said already, a lot of these guys are playing on bad teams, so it’s difficult to find them shelter. Tampa did find some for Stamkos (58.0% starts in the OZ), and Edmonton did for Gagner (52.8%), but Atlanta didn’t do so for Kane (47.1%) and Colorado was putting O’Reilly out for DZ draws on purpose (43.0%, which was the most difficult for any regular Avalanche forward). Kane’s season actually looks pretty good with that context in mind.
Good stuff Derek. I assume that you have this stuff in a spreadsheet, and if so, would you be willing to post the median for this stuff. The 18 y/o’s, for instance, are getting their Corsi killed by Ryan O’Reilly’s -13.65/60. All three of the other guys are above the average (Gagner at -7.29, Stamkos at -3.96, and Kane at -3.33). I’m curious about the medians for the larger samples because I wonder if this is a case of a few players who really aren’t ready for the role the team has them in making the whole group look worse than they really are.
I’ll have it up tomorrow.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Do they break Corsi down into shots against and shots for?
How are you separating offense from defense in the Corsi numbers? There’s nothing to say that their improvement in Corsi is more attributable to reduced shots against than to increased shots for – or is there?
You’re correct that a Corsi score doesn’t break the game into “offense” and “defense” but instead looks at the game in a holistic manner. In some ways, this is helpful, but it doesn’t tell us much about the process (i.e., is a player good defending with his stick, can he win puck battles, does he cover his point well, etc.). It’s essentially measuring territory, in that a high Corsi number suggests that the game is being played more often in the offensive zone and a low Corsi number suggests the opposite.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 20, 2010 9:04 PM MDT up reply actions

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