Dustin Penner Drove The Bus Uphill
Frequent visitor Jon Kerber wrote something in the comments of the scoring chances article that I've read a few times this summer:
One particular example would be Penner. Given his generous offensive zone start ratio, I’d be curious to see his differential scoring chance production between offensive and defensive zones.
I don't mean to call Jon out on this, but he's the most recent example of associating Dustin Penner with an inordinate amount of offensive zone starts in the 2009-2010 season. I'm not sure where this idea came from -- that Penner's success this season was somehow due to his soft starting positions, or that Penner got the easy work compared to his comrades, but it's worth digging a bit deeper to understand Zonestart on the Oilers last season.
Those who are unfamiliar with the Zonestart stat should start with Vic Ferrari's seminal work on the topic. Put simply, Zonestart (ZS) is the net difference in on-ice defensive zone faceoffs taken and offensive zone faceoffs taken. Zonefinish (ZF) is the net difference in on-ice offensive zone whistles and defensive zone whistles. Offensive zone percentage (OPCT) is the percentage of offensive zone faceoffs (once offensive and defensive zone faceoffs are added together). Zoneshift (ZSH) is the difference between Zonefinish and Zonestart.
These numbers are important because they allow us to look at the difficulty of starting position by player, and draw out relative values by comparing them to teammates. Zoneshift gives us a look at which players are moving the puck the right way or keeping the puck in the offensive end, depending on Zonestart. Our kind and benevolent statistical overlord, Gabriel Desjardins, makes tracking all of these very easy with a specific Zonestart section on his excellent site, www.behindthenet.ca.
Now that I've cleared up the definitions around Zonestart, here are the Oilers' Zonestarts for the 2009-2010 season, beginning with the forwards:
| NAME 09/10 | DZ | OZ | OPCT |
| Ales Hemsky | 95 | 73 | 0.435 |
| Ethan Moreau | 296 | 245 | 0.453 |
| Shawn Horcoff | 369 | 306 | 0.453 |
| Dustin Penner | 343 | 288 | 0.456 |
| Fernando Pisani | 162 | 140 | 0.464 |
| Zachery Stortini | 205 | 179 | 0.466 |
| Ryan Potulny | 234 | 208 | 0.471 |
| Ryan Jones | 114 | 103 | 0.475 |
| Mike Comrie | 122 | 111 | 0.476 |
| Robert Nilsson | 213 | 197 | 0.480 |
| Gilbert Brule | 229 | 215 | 0.484 |
| Sam Gagner | 235 | 224 | 0.488 |
| Andrew Cogliano | 260 | 251 | 0.491 |
| Patrick O'Sullivan | 260 | 259 | 0.499 |
| Jean-Francois Jacques | 131 | 139 | 0.515 |
Dustin Penner took 45.6% of his end-zone faceoffs in the offensive zone, fourth on this list and third overall amongst full-season forwards. Penner was not afforded any special protections by Pat Quinn in 2009-2010, and in fact, he had some of the toughest duties on the team. Penner also drove the play in the right direction on a consistent basis. This is a significant change from his previous role under Craig MacTavish, who put Penner out for more offensive draws. Even then, Penner managed to keep the play in his own end and drive the play in a positive direction. That Penner can play either role is a credit to his all-around game, something MacTavish didn't believe existed, and something that Pat Quinn used accidentally, I think.
Edmonton's Rasputin, Jean-Francois Jacques, had the highest OPCT on the team, yet struggled in every category, both by the traditional stats and the "new math".
Now a look at the defense:
| Name 09/10 | DZ | OZ | OPCT |
| Taylor Chorney | 197 | 127 | 0.392 |
| Aaron Johnson | 151 | 128 | 0.459 |
| Jason Strudwick | 298 | 254 | 0.460 |
| Ladislav Smid | 227 | 200 | 0.468 |
| Ryan Whitney | 396 | 377 | 0.488 |
| Tom Gilbert | 404 | 397 | 0.496 |
| Sheldon Souray | 182 | 199 | 0.522 |
The insanity of Pat Quinn's Rawhide Line Matching is evident here. The Oilers' three worst defensemen end up with the most difficult starting positions, and the rookie, Taylor Chorney, who struggled to keep his head above water had the fifth-worst OPCT in the entire league.
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It’s the damndest thing, I read it in an article from another numbers-focused blog. Obviously, I didn’t bother to confirm it myself. I went back to the blog but what’s there doesn’t accord with my recollection. If others have been labouring under the same impression I’m not sure what to say. I generally don’t bother to double check the numbers on most of the blogs. Oh well.
Jon, I’ve seen the same things in different places and your comment just set me off towards writing the article. I’m pretty sure it’s a misread of the Zonestart table at www.behindthenet.ca
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Advanced statistics prove first that Jason Strudwick is shit and now that Dustin Penner is good? What will they do next?
by Benjamin Massey on Aug 12, 2010 9:16 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t like the way Gabe tracks zonestarts, by counting every faceoff a player was on the ice for. That may be a useful stat in itself, but it should have a different name, so that people don’t try to use it like Vic’s zonestarts. You can often get away with it, because they’re often close, but not always. That chart of defencemen is a case when they’re not close.
If you only look at faceoffs at the start of a player’s shift, you see almost all Oiler D in a pretty tight band around 40% OZone start%. Staios is the big exception, way up at 49%. And Johnson is the other exception, way down at 32%, but I think that’s mostly a sample size issue, because he started very few shifts with a faceoff (ie. changed on the fly a lot more than other D).
But the Oilers spent a lot of time trailing last season, and you gotta score goals to catch up, so it makes sense that they would start their good defencemen more in the offensive zone in those situations. If you only look at “close” games (tied in 3rd, within one otherwise), the numbers start to widen. I’ve got Staios, Strudwick, Smid, and Grebeshkov being (relatively) sheltered with 50%, 46%, 46%, and 45% respectively. And I’ve got Souray (especially), Visnovsky, and Gilbert doing the heavy lifting with 34%, 38%, and 39% respectively. Of course, this is only zonestarts from when these players were Oilers, not before or after trades.
by RyanV on Aug 12, 2010 9:40 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
RyanV:
Just a terrific point. And obvious now that it’s been said aloud. Jebus, why did none of us think of it earlier?
You’re right Vic, this is an excellent idea. This should find the “money” defensemen…
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Does this mean that Chorney could have been much better if put in a position to succeed? (As in being given the role and responsibility that would have matched his strengths best.)
I don’t get how he was placed in the DZ so often. Was that Quinn’s responsibility to roll out the D? Or was it placed on another coach? Man, I even pay attention to those details when I play NHL 10 on the PS3!
I regret to inform you that Tom Renney was running the defense last season. Hopefully “rolling them over” wasn’t his call. On a hopeful note, his bench tactics in New York suggest that it wasn’t.
by Scott Reynolds on Aug 13, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
I wonder if comparing the two zonestart method would give us an even better picture of who is moving the puck in the right direction.
If two players each have a 45% zone start by Vic’s measure but one come sin at 43% by Gabe and the other comes in at 46% I think that tells us more about the two players than either measure does on it’s own.
If I’m just telling people something they already know, forgive me, I’m mostly thinking out loud.
by TigerUnderGlass on Aug 12, 2010 11:32 AM MDT reply actions
Which zone a player starts in most often is going to have an impact on his Corsi plus-minus, but it will only affect his point totals a few points here or there.
Not many goals are scored at even strength in the 10-15 seconds after a faceoff loss. And a number of goals are scored on line rushes, which balances out the disadvantage of starting in your own zone.
Now, on the powerplay, losing that faceoff is a different and much more costly matter, but I think the over-emphasis on even strength face-off losses comes because those costly powerplay faceoff losses are deeply imprinted on fans.
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Aug 12, 2010 11:39 AM MDT reply actions
For example, the Oilers gave up 211 even strength goals last year.
Twenty of those goals against came after a faceoff lost, with the other team winning it and keeping up the momentum until the puck was in the Oil’s net. Ten of those faceoff losses happened in the defensive end, seven in the neutral zone, three in the offensive end.
At the same time, the Oilers scored 14 goals after even strength faceoff wins, with eight of those wins coming in the offensive zone, 1 in the neutral zone and five in the defensive zone.
The Oilers scored 169 goals at even strength in total.
So out of 380 even strength goals for and against the Oilers, 34 came after the puck was won on the faceoff, with 18 of the 34 happening when a team lost the faceoff in the d-zone.
So players who take a ton of offensive zone faceoffs have some small advantage when it comes to putting up points, and maybe even in regards to their official plus-minus number, but it would seem to be an exceedlingly small advantage.
Of course, if NHL coaches put out their best defenders for defensive zone faceoffs (and I assume most try to do so), this would have an impact on these numbers, balancing them out somewhat.
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Aug 12, 2010 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions
It strikes me that Penner did not simply drive the bus uphill last season, he was the bus. The question is, can he translate those very good results into top niche results when there are a few more fit, healthy and quality players around to share the load? Or has he spent all summer slovenly eating gummy bears while repeatedly muttering ’Who’s the loser now MacTavish’?
Heh. From the Amicus Brief, written before the unveiling of the new Penner:
A common phrase in hockey analysis is “Who drives the bus?”, roughly translated to “Who is carrying the play?”. In the case of the Edmonton Oilers, the answer has been Shawn Horcoff and Ales Hemsky. However, as demonstrated above, they tend to spin their wheels without Dustin Penner around. Horcoff might drive the bus, but Dustin Penner is the vehicle that delivers results.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Penner has a tradition of coming out all gangbusters at the beginning of the season no matter how much he or the team is being doubted, only to slow down either because his conditioning fails him or because the team actually is that bad and he’s simply demoralized.
If the likes of Hall, Eberle, and MPS are enough to fire him up, he’ll be fired.
by Benjamin Massey on Aug 12, 2010 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Another interesting way of seeing who the money guys are is to look at who is being sent out there, that is whose shift’s beginning coincide with a faceoff and in what zone. Of course, this means you have faith in the general correctess of the shift charts but from what I could tell, running those numbers on the habs made sense.
Basically, you have a guy, Plekanec, who attended 389 DZone FO and another guy, Gomez, who attended 288 (they both had similar icetime overall). Gabriel noted a few months ago that some players are on the ice for many icing and Pleks is one of them. Plek’s breakdown was thus:
79 FO after an icing
111 coming along somewhere between the beginning and the end of a shift
199 actually occuring at the moment a shift of his began.
Gomez’s breakdown is 46/101/141.
Another side of this is some guys are on the ice for a lot of their opponent’s icings. Pleks was on for 59 of those, Gomez 75. The OZone breakdowns are:
Plek’s 303 OZFO: 146 faceoffs occured along a shift, and Martin sent him on the ice for 157.
Gomez’s 352 OZFO: 198 occured along a shift, 154 times Martin sent him out.
If you look at the last 10 minutes of the 3rd period, you see that Pleks was sent on DZone FO 50 times, Gomez 20 and Gomez was sent of 37 OZFO, Pleks 23.
One last thing: I’m not sure I ran the numbers correctly, but it seems Martin made at least one personnel change on 79% of DZFO, 62% of NZoneFO and 51% of OZone FO.
At some point I’ll run the numbers league-wide, if somebody doesn’t beat me to it (please, do so, it’s a pain in the ass :)).
Those of you who read french can see a few tables here and here.

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