Homophobia And Discrimination In Hockey - Why The NHL And NHLPA Need To Step Up
by Derek Zona on Jul 7, 2010 5:30 AM PDT
in Opinion
318 comments
"...We're all connected: to each other, biologically; to the earth, chemically; and to the rest of the universe, atomically. That's kind of cool. That makes me smile."
The authors here get e-mail feedback on just about every article we write. We've not talked about it previously because the typical e-mailer is an angry, frothing-at-the-mouth Canucks fan, or an angry, frothing-at-the-mouth Avalanche fan that possesses a terrible hatred of math, especially as related to hockey. But the e-mails received in response to the article I wrote about Father's Day in the NHL were different. Many people were thankful for the article and a few shared their personal stories of loss with me. I was overwhelmed by the feedback - there were over thirty emails of encouragement or thanks - and many of them were extremely emotional.
Two e-mails in particular have made an impact. The first was from a gentleman who told me he was writing to thank me because the article gave him hope. He told me of his own son coming out of the closet and witnessing the struggles that he had to go through, even within their own family, on a daily basis. His son passed away at a young age shortly thereafter. He said that when he read, "The strength that Brendan showed in coming out is something that should make any father, actually, every father proud..." he was given hope that life will be easier on gay kids as the next generation ages. I choked up at my computer while reading the email.
The second was one of three I received in which I was called a homosexual because I supported Brendan Burke, and only a man regularly involved in homosexual acts could ever possibly support a homosexual in sports. I've both translated and paraphrased the original work as none of the three pieces of hate mail were written in what could be described as even passable English. It was an anonymous email, of course, but the origin IP tracks to Edmonton, which is disheartening in and of itself. This article isn't about the hate mail, but I will admit that the trolls behind those three e-mails spurred my response.
Shortly after my article was published, Brent Sopel of the Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks announced that he and his wife would be participating in the Gay Pride Parade in Chicago and that the Stanley Cup would be on board. Sopel knew Brendan from the time that their paths crossed in Vancouver - Sopel was a player there when Brendan's father, Brian Burke, was General Manager of the Canucks. Sopel talked about his participation and how it related to Brendan Burke:
"I wasn’t here to advocate (anything), but if coming here helps break down walls in the meantime, so be it. I was here for Brendan. I hope he is smiling."
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Many in the sports media felt that Sopel's participation was a response to the "Pronger is gay" pictures that came from the post-game celebration in the Blackhawks' locker room, but Sopel said it was specifically for Brendan. The "Pronger is gay" picture, however, speaks to a larger problem in hockey - the anti-gay culture that the players have created for themselves means that, even if there are gay NHL players, there is little chance of them coming out. Brian Burke talked about gay men in hockey in response to his son coming out:
"There are gay men in professional hockey. We would be fools to think otherwise. And it’s sad that they feel the need to conceal this. I understand why they do so, however."
They do so because of the culture that surrounds professional sports, one where the biggest possible affront to a man is to call him "gay" or some other homosexual epithet. Brendan's brother Patrick wrote an excellent column for Outsports on breaking the cycle of discrimination in the NHL. In it, he recounts his experiences with scouts after Brendan came out and notes that all of them were positive, even if some were awkward. Burke wants the NHL to take steps to bring their athletes around to that same mindset, and I agree with every word:
"It is truly a vicious cycle: Athletes who are never exposed to gay culture hold onto antiquated (and often harmful) stereotypes about homosexuality, which makes gay athletes afraid to come out, which means the athletes never confront the ignorance of their beliefs. The cycle has been repeating itself for generations in pro sports.
It will take men of courage, gay and straight, to break this cycle. The hockey establishment must do a better job of establishing a safe haven for gay athletes."
While it's a good sign that people at all levels in the NHL have begun to speak out, this isn't limited to professional hockey. The anti-gay culture is pervasive throughout all levels of hockey and it's not likely to change any time soon without a giant push in the right direction from the NHL. There are still over 15,000 near-adults playing higher-level amateur hockey in North America. Of those, some 3,500 are playing Major Junior or NCAA Hockey. As sure as Brian Burke is that there are gay men in professional hockey, I'm sure that there are many times that number in the amateur ranks. Yet these kids are left on their own, far from home, far from any support system, invariably alone, a gay kid playing a sport in which gay men are reviled, living in fear of being discovered. There is nowhere to go, no one to talk to, and nowhere to turn but inside themselves, and that loneliness and fear almost certainly impacts their on-ice performance and, to a greater extent, their careers.
I don't care if a player is gay, nor do NHL scouts. Nor should anyone else in the hockey world. Like the people that Patrick Burke talked to, what we all care about is a player's ability to take to the ice with ferocity and finesse, strength and grace, determination and skill. As Burke so eloquently said, the goal of everyone involved with hockey at any level should be the same:
"We need to make it clear to every hockey player – gay, straight, black, white, religious, atheist, tall, short, whatever – if you can play, we welcome you. "
The NHL has a chance to make an enormous impact on the lives of so many young men and women in their sport, an impact that would resonate in both the entire sporting world and society at-large. The NHL, the franchises, the owners and the players are a well-funded group with access to every major media outlet in North America. Brendan Burke blazed a trail, Brian Burke and Brent Sopel followed his ideals and ideas and showed the world how the NHL could act -- it's time for the rest of the league and the media to follow suit.
Millions of kids spend each day feeling afraid, isolated, and alone for a myriad of reasons; being attracted to people of the same sex should not be one of them. Whether it's a superstar on the verge of being worth millions, or a Junior-B kid riding the buses on the Canadian prairie, no man or woman should have to live a life of scared solitude because of the person they'd like to date.
Because we are not alone. Not only we are connected to each other at the most basic levels of life; we are connected to each other through our love of the sport, through our passion for our teams, through our mutual fanaticism. Isolation is man-made, born of discrimination through differences, and differences have driven the NHL's anti-gay culture and attitude. It's time for the NHL to take action against its anti-gay culture, to strengthen our connections to each other, and to resolve to eliminate the isolation of anyone involved with our game.
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I’ve both translated and paraphrased the original work as none of the three pieces of hate mail were written in what could be described as even passable English. It was an anonymous email, of course, but the origin IP tracks to Edmonton, which is disheartening in and of itself
In the third world countries, homosexuality is a huge stigma. A person coming out of the closet is generally rendered an outcast in the society and in some extreme cases is even killed by his own family. So when people migrate to places like Canada, some of them are unable to get rid of their hatred towards homosexuals. I too was one of them. It had been ingrained in me that it is a sin and blah blah blah. It took me about 2 years to get rid of those sentiments. It will take time for some to come around. Others may never and they are entitled to their opinions.
If you ask me, it’s the hatred that’s the sin. Acceptance, understanding, tolerance, love – these are the sorts of “family values” that I can support. The Burke family has set a shining example in this respect.
Congratulations to Derek for an outstanding article.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 7, 2010 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with what you’re saying (Bruce) and I think Derek has written a fantastic article, but Sum raises a good point about the power of social norms. They take a long time to change and there needs to be a good understanding of the context that people are coming from. That doesn’t mean accepting their views, but it’s important not to dismiss them out of hand either. It’s much easier to promote change by first understanding people and honestly considering their views. For Canadians, I think this is especially important with people who are newer to the country and who have come from an area with completely different sensibilities.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 7, 2010 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions
The cultural zeitgeist, in this case an irrational hatred of others, won’t change until people are convinced to change their beliefs. I think we’ve seen this happen as minorities of all colors and sexual orientations have, generally, become more accepted in society. Pressure from society has changed minds. But there is still more to be done. Derek’s point is spot on – people shouldn’t be made to live in fear simply for being what they were born to be. Institutions with clout should stand-up and show courage in the face of hate. If they throw their weight behind the movement we will notice even more significant improvements in our lifetimes.
Excuse me, but “minorities” didn’t have to be accepted into a society that was as much theirs as yours to begin with.
That said, I agree that certain institutions will need to throw their weight around for real change to come but it will take a generation or two, regardless, in my opinion. Ignorance is hard to kill, unfortunately. In the States we have our first black president but it hasn’t changed much of anything on the surface. At least, not yet. The generation being born now are the ones who are most affected. They’re growing up with a black president so that changes the collective perspective. It would be the same with homophobia, i believe.
I think sum also makes a great point about the ability to change your view in the face of powerful social norms. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does happen. I can relate somewhat – I was raised (in Canada) with a strong hatred for homosexuals. I count a number of gays and lesbians as my closest friends now, and am richer for it.
I believe you are right, that understanding where the hatred comes from is important in correcting it, and am encouraged by the change I have seen just in my lifetime. It won’t happen as fast as we might like, but it will happen.
I applaud people like Brendan and Brian Burke and Brent Sopel. These actions, and the conversation that people like the fine writers at C&B engage in, are what will make life a little easier for the next generation.
Wouldn’t it be something if hockey became a force for this kind of acceptance?
Wouldn’t it be something if hockey became a force for this kind of acceptance?
Bingo eddy. The Burkes kicked down the door and Sopel barged in with them. They’ve done the difficult part in bringing attention to the issue. All the league has to do is follow them through the door.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Others may never and they are entitled to their opinions.
So if I believe that all blacks or browns or asians or women or (insert any group here) are scum and actively make my perceptions known, am I entitled to that opinion too?
By definition, yes, you are. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how backwards, ignorant, or bigoted it may be.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
The league can take the lead in overcoming ignorance and backwards thinking. We’ll always have bigots.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
This is permitted to differing degrees in various societies. Even in Canada and the U.S. there’s some substantial differences. There’s a lot more tolerance for intolerant speech in the U.S. in order to preserve freedom of speech than there is in Canada, which has both its benefits and its drawbacks in each case.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 7, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Perceptions and actions are two different things
Yes, you, and all people, are entitled to all kinds of different opinions, and usually these are the product of cultural or familial perceptions being passed on in younger years. They won’t change overnight, and may never change.
Where the line MUST be drawn is where your opinions cross another’s personal or civil rights. It is not alright to act on hostile opinions, even down to the level of slandering or teasing, let alone physically endangering another human being.
Can you continue your view of other people as scum while leaving them in peace? Those seem to me to be two contradicting positions to try and uphold. Perhaps in the process, you might come to realize that EVERYBODY is a center of consciousness, operating from their own biases, including those you wish to hate.
Right on the mark
When alone in your own thoughts, think whatever you want. But acting on those beleifs is where the line in the sand is drawn. However, it could be said that holding beliefs that are ignorant or based in sterotype is going to shape the direction your life is led. And that could negatively impact both you and those around you, without concsiously acting on them. Bottom line, E-L-E (everyone love everybody)! -jackie moon
Perceptions and actions are two different things
I understand what you’re saying Sum, but in this case, I’m not asking individuals to change their minds. Like verduci says here, I’m asking for the power brokers behind the institution to make this happen. This can happen from the ground up or the top down and if the NHL and NHLPA set the example the changes at the individual level will happen much, much more quickly.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
But often it is the other way around. It always is a group of enlightened masses that change the view of an organisation. We as individuals have to stand up for it. An organisation such as NHL is always happy with the way things remain. They havent yet figured out how to deal with something such trivial as the blindside hit to the head thing, encouraging gays is a much more drastic step for them. Change will never occur until a large group stands together in support showing unity.
Hello
Hi. I rarely log into SB nation, but I felt the need to here. I am a Penguins fan, but hockey is too fun to root for just one team so I root for the team that finishes last in the West for the next season as well. That’s how I started reading Copper & Blue.
I’d like to thank you for writing this piece and publicly state that I fully agree with the sentiments expressed by the article. I was completely surprised to see an article like this appear on a hockey blog, and hopefully it is a sign that the tide is turning in favor of those striving for their basic human rights.
I am a straight male but through fate (or maybe I should call it fortune) I have made several gay friends over the last few years, male and female. I will relay this article to them. I don’t believe they are hockey fans (which are still terribly scarce in the USA), but I am sure that they will appreciate that a message of understanding is being broadcast in their support.
Thanks for joining and thanks for your feedback.
I was completely surprised to see an article like this appear on a hockey blog,
Hey, it’s not just all hockey all of the time here. Considering the shape that the Oilers are in – that would lead to emotional issues.
I will relay this article to them. I don’t believe they are hockey fans (which are still terribly scarce in the USA), but I am sure that they will appreciate that a message of understanding is being broadcast in their support.
Thank you, I’d love to hear their opinions.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Another pernicious angle of the prevailing culture is the way it reinforces sexual predators like Graham James. Their victims keep quiet about the situation, in large part because of the shame of it all, and the fear that they’ll be labeled as gay by their teammates.
Every player or coach who engages in this stuff is an unwitting accomplice of monsters like Graham James.
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by Dirk Hoag on Jul 7, 2010 7:04 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Great point, Dirk
Any time there’s an inclination to keep things hush-hush, it’s an opportunity for someone to exploit vacuum.
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Excellent point, Dirk. Not only are juniors kids alone, away from any support system, they are exposed to people like James and it isolates them even further.
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Terrific point, and one I wish was made more often, well beyond hockey.
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by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 7, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Great article. I also think that gay players in Junior would have it the worst, just because everyone on the team is immature. As they mature though, they’ll learn to be more accepting and open minded.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 7, 2010 7:47 AM PDT reply actions
Very well said Derek. Where I live in Atlanta our local recreation hockey leagues have several out gays and lesbians. I’m pleased to say that there has been little negative reaction (to my knowledge). Obviously this is not the NHL, but in my neck of the woods it seems that things are changing a bit.
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I’m not surprised that a major metropolitan area like Atlanta is ahead of the curve here – the residents of any city with an existing gay culture are less likely to attach any stigmas.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Excellent article, Derek, even with dig on the Avs. ;-) Seriously, though, poignant words and a strong call to action that I hope will be heeded.
In my league in Southern California, there are a couple of teams that are openly gay. They don’t discriminate and will accept straight players, of course, but it’s great to see they feel free to be themselves. That’s not to say there isn’t still a backlash. There are players on other teams that still talk trash, but for the most part, the teams are accepting and everyone focuses on what’s important: the hockey. California may catch some ridicule for not being a traditional or, to some, legitimate hockey market, but it does have tolerance within the sport going for it. My hope is that attitude spreads throughout the industry.
(It’s interesting that Atlanta, another non-traditional market, is also, as you put it Derek, ‘ahead of the curve." I wonder if the feeling of wanting to be accepted in the hockey world makes people more accepting of those in the sport in general…the formation of a feeling of unity when there’s a shared obstacle…)
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I think Atlanta and California being “ahead of the curve” has more to do with the fact that both have established, strong homosexual communities. And who’s to say they are the only ones. Look at what just happened in Chicago with the parade – they have a gay hockey league themselves and Chicago sure couldn’t be described as non-traditional.
Thank you
for an amazing read.
One of my best friends is gay. I remember what he went through trying to tell me and he’s not an athlete! I can only imagine the strength it took Brendan Burke.
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While its fine to make high minded calls for tolerance I think we should be slightly realistic. Every high level athlete does not have the general attitude of say Brock Lesnar but that attitudinal strain certainly has some prevalence. I expect that major sociological changes in “jock” culture are unlikely.
But I will point out that hockey players are much better than say musicians at just entertaining us by playing hockey and keeping whatever views they have to themself.
God forbid celebrities use their fame to bring attention to worthy needs. Just shut up and entertain I say.
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by PPP on Jul 7, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
The stigma associated with being gay is very strongly connected with being more feminine. Sensitivity, caring, compassionate, delicate, emotional. Anyone who has ever seen a queen in full drag knows what a powerful image(perhaps symbol is a better word) that is. So it’s not surprising that men, in a testosterone fuelled industry like professional sports, would be prone to using being gay as a slur. After all, when strength and power and speed are what make great players, someone with the caracteristics above would be a terrible player. Wouldn’t they?
As I think about the picutre of Pronger and using the term gay as a slur, I can see how that might create the idea that someone is weaker than they might have otherwise thought, especially to someone who has the kind of mental image of gay people as I describe above.
The most exciting thought for me when considering the gay stigma, is when someone comes forwards who challenges that stereotype. Can you imagin the uproar of having someone like Nik Lidstrom or Alex Ovechkin comming out of the closet? That someone could be that good, and be gay? It will not happen soon, but it will eventually happen with someone.
I think that you are right that the NHL has a great opportunity here, and could attract a lot of fans to the game by trying to challenge the dominant culture. I think Brent and Brian are doing some fabulous work to lay the foundation for change.
I hope that change comes soon. My sister is gay, and I have heard from her many stories of the treatment she and her gay friends have received here in Edmonton. It’s truly heartbreaking to know that such bigoted attitudes are so prevalent in a city I love, and that such wonderful people are persecuted for the love that they share with other people.
Thank you for your bravery in writing about such a sensitive topic. Thank you for bringing into the mainstream an issue that many still like to push into the shadows. May you be well rewarded for your right actions.
by Permaculture on Jul 7, 2010 8:10 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Can you imagin the uproar of having someone like Nik Lidstrom or Alex Ovechkin comming out of the closet? That someone could be that good, and be gay? It will not happen soon, but it will eventually happen with someone.
It would be amazing, but a lot can be done even before a star athlete comes out of the closet. Even stuff like Sopel walking in the parade, doing it for Brendan Burke and talking about why, makes a difference. Assuming Lidstrom and Ovechkin are not gay, it would still be huge if players of that level of fame were open about the topic when it comes up, seen with openly gay friends, doing their bit for awareness (if they so chose). Of course for all we know, some of the NHL’s stars may be as homophobic as the courageous trolls who send Derek hate mail.
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Nice article, well written. We’re happy to have Brent Sopel coming to Atlanta. What he did is truly appreciated by myself and many of my hockey-playing friends.
by CuckooForKovalchuk on Jul 7, 2010 8:15 AM PDT reply actions
Great post.
As much work as there is to be done in the NHL, the league is still well ahead of the NFL, MLB and NBA in this area. Which makes this a rare opportunity for the NHL to be a leader on something important, rather than meekly following along like they usually do.
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Again thank you for the great article.
DGB has a great point about this, and the NHL should totally get behind this type of project. For all the talk about community in pro-sports, that community is often just the white, hetero, middle class community. Thanks Copper & Blue and thanks NHL, you are doing some real community work on this issue.
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Once again, Derek knocks it out of the park. Well done Derek, well done. Articles like this one make me wonder strongly how you are not writing for SI or someone else of that ilk.
The NHL has strong ties to the communities they play in. Hockey is for Everyone has helped to bridge racial and gender lines, perhaps it is time for that group to bridge the gay / straight divide as well.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Hockey is for Everyone has helped to bridge racial and gender lines, perhaps it is time for that group to bridge the gay / straight divide as well.
I don’t see why not. It’s in the slogan!
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Rec'd
Joined so that could rec and comment on this well written piece.
I hope the people who sent you those negative e-mails read this.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 7, 2010 8:28 AM PDT reply actions
Thank you both very much for joining.
The negative e-mails are more fascinating than anything. It’s like looking into a fishbowl.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
What's truly sad to me is ...
there’s this prevailing thought that there are gays in hockey, probably even in the NHL. Yet how many NHL players do you know that aren’t married with kids? So not only can they not openly be who they are, they in fact have to live a lie as well.
I see where you’re coming from, but there’s plenty of NHLers who aren’t married with kids. I hope the situation you’re suggesting isn’t happening out of a feel of necessity.
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Most of the ones who aren’t married are still pretty young though. And even if they don’t attempt to hide behind a straight lifestyle (which happens outside of professional sports even), they sure aren’t living a normal life either. There’s too much scrutiny in any market for them to have a real relationship and expect to keep it a secret for long. I live in Atlanta, which has virtually no media coverage for hockey, but even down here there’s no way a player could live even a quiet gay lifestyle. There’s functions like Casino Night where the players always bring their significant others, or even going out regularly around town to social events or dinner. Even if the media doesn’t notice, fans will (lots of people knew about Savard’s affair for example – in fact I’d bet a good portion of the fan base knew about it long before his wife did).
So even if they don’t try to totally hide it, they sure can’t be open about it either.
Great writing, Derek.
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This is a great piece, Derek.
The gay stigma, as touched on above my another commenter, is also linked to anti-femininity. The “Chrissy Pronger” or “Cindy Crosby” references are just some examples. Being called gay or a woman’s name is supposed to be demeaning. There is no real biological or scientific reason for that type of hierarchy in our society, but it exists. Unfortunately.
I think this is a good point. Hockey does seem to have something of a misogynistic bent both in terms of “trash-talk” and in terms of “off-ice activities” which likely contributes to the stigma homosexuals face.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 7, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
To that point
I think Sports in general (at least contact sports that were primarily men-only games) have a deep rooted arc towards masculinity.
The homosexual culture (in the eyes of outsiders of course),seems to be slanted towards effeminite men and short haired, broad shouldered women.
Therefore, it is to be expected that there would be some friction between these two cultures, and I dont think any of us will live to see the day where the two are comfortably intertwined.
That being said, its not too much to ask that in this day and age, someone who is involved in both of those worlds (both the hockey and gay communities) would be able to be up front to both about all aspects of his life.
I ask one question though: Is there a double standard here? While sports may never embrace gays; I think that there may be some pressure from members of the gay community that Sports are rough, coarse, and not something a typical “gay man” would participate in? Anybody agree with that?
I definitely think you’ll find fewer gay men in pro sports than you will in the population as a whole (in terms of percentage). People generally don’t want to live where they feel unwanted and I think it would be hard for a gay person to feel embraced by the pro sports community. I sang many years in a community choir, and my experience there was the opposite. There were probably more gay guys than is typical because the community embraced and supported them.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
The difference between men and women is predominantly due to size and body composition: men are bigger, and have more muscle and less fat as a percentage of body mass. There may also be small variations in the composition of the muscle (i.e. Type I vs. Type II), but nothing huge that I’ve seen in a textbook, especially as it regards athletes.
Interestingly, young female athletes tend to develop (i.e. mature through puberty) later than their sedentary cohort, and wind up a bit taller because of it (estrogen being a factor that stunts growth).
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Very good article but...
A mature, sensible and well written piece, somewhat marred by the following tract:
the typical e-mailer is an angry, frothing-at-the-mouth Canucks fan, or an angry, frothing-at-the-mouth Avalanche fan that possesses a terrible hatred of math, especially as related to hockey.
A good writer doesn’t let his personal feelings get in the way of an article. If you removed this kind of put-down, the article would stand up really well in any pro magazine.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
Says me.
I never said I was a good writer. I am not a blogger, I am someone who comments on them. I do not have to be impartial, but you seem to have missed the point.
Other posters above have said that the piece Derek wrote wouldn’t look out of place in SI. If you read my post, I actually say that I agree, if not for the Canuck/Avs fan bit, it would stand up well in any print magazine as an intelligent, well written piece.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
Of course, blogs aren't held to the same journalistic standards as print magazines
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A good writer doesn’t let his personal feelings get in the way of an article.
This entire column is based on personal feelings.
If you removed this kind of put-down, the article would stand up really well in any pro magazine.
It’s not a put-down, it’s fact. I’ve got the e-mails from the Colorado – San Jose series to prove it.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I’m not having a go at you, Derek and I am not trolling on your board. I’m a bit too old for that!
As stated above, I was judging your column by professional standards, perhaps unfairly. Of course a blog is just a collection of personal feelings. I just felt that you wrote a cracking article which is getting much love and referrals from other blogs and marred it with a sub-par pop at other teams.
In other news, I had never been a fan of Brian Burke until I saw the dignified, loving, fatherly way he responded about his son’s sexuality. Then, my respect for the man soared.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
What’s a sports blog but a collection of opinions, by definition?
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by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 7, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Wonderful post, thank you!
As a gay hockey fan, homophobia in the NHL makes me very sad. I feel sad for the players who can’t live openly, and it’s also the case that the homophobic culture can extend to the hockey fan community. We’ve all heard fans yell “faggot” at players they don’t like, and it’s alienating for gay hockey fans watching the game. Many fan photoshops on hockey blogs are bad gay jokes, drawing a hated player as “gay” in various ways, which is supposed to be insulting and hilarious. I believe the majority of hockey fans would support a gay player who came out, but since that has never happened, it makes it easy for those few homophobic fans to feel like being hateful is okay.
by Cari on Jul 7, 2010 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Here’s hoping that the next great hockey wizard (probably named Tyler Taylor or Austin Lucas at this point) hits the NHL with a couple of 75 point seasons, signs a massive 8 year, 60 million dollar contract and comes out during the press conference to announce the signing.
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My usual comeback to the “faggot” insults is something about how it’s not fair to insult gays by associating them with the player.
I wish a popular player would come out. Or maybe five players at once so they can spread out the publicity. If you don’t know anybody who’s out, it’s easy to think of “all gays” as bad people. But if it’s your superstar, or your brother, or your fishing buddy, the stereotypes become less plausible.
This is probably the most important thing actually. Just knowing people does wonders to promote understanding.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 7, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s articles like this Derek and the supportive comments that follow it that help restore my faith in humanity. A well written article on a topic that needs to be addressed in terms of getting rid of very tired and bigoted stereotype that no longer have a place anywhere on this planet – especially sports.
It would be very nice to see not just the NHL, but the IIHF as well take the lead in this area.
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by Art Middleton on Jul 7, 2010 9:32 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
It would be very nice to see not just the NHL, but the IIHF as well take the lead in this area.
I don’t think the IIHF has nearly the societal impact as the NHL does.
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It does in places like Europe though
where international hockey is arguably more important than domestic hockey.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
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“It’s not a put-down, it’s fact.”
If everyone in the world was gay the world wouldn’t exist.
It’s not a put-down, it’s a fact.
What a ridiculous comment
the world existed long before the animals known as “humans” and will go on exiting long after we are extinct.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Not really.
The bottom line is everyone deserves to be treated with respect and I’m down with that 100% but I don’t think being gay is something that the Master Plan intended. I’m all for acceptance but perhaps homosexuality is a simple as a chemical imbalance that can be regulated like other illnesses. Some people in the world are attracted to animals – where do you draw the line between sick and normal?
I accept gays the same way I accept someone with turrets or autism. Perhaps that makes me a caveman but I’m a caveman that would never purposely hurt someones feelings because of something someone was born with.
Being gay
is not a syndrome.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 7, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Everyone in the world is attracted to animals
I happen to be attracted to the female human animal but that doesn’t make me more or less right or wrong than anyone else.
Master Plan? Careful throwing around words like that. To me the “master plan” should be to live and let live and try to leave the world a better place than when you entered it and that’s about it for “master plans”.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Heh.
Some people in the world are attracted to animals – where do you draw the line between sick and normal?
Do you really, really want to know? Shall we start with the fact (not a put-down!) that there is nothing – nothing – that homosexuals can do that straight people haven’t. already done and are doing even now, with great abandon. I guarantee that a good 80% of my sex life would be frowned upon by someone out there, and you decide to pity me?
Oh, dear dear dear. If anyone is going to pity anyone, I’m going to feel sad for the unimaginative and afraid. You know, like they have Tourette’s disorder or autism.
Perhaps I used poor examples. My bad.
My point was I find accepting others rather easy but I wouldn’t classify myself as being pro gay. Man was programmed to reproduce. I have no problem accepting gays but I find it hard to accept that being gay was meant to happen.
Does that make me a dinosaur?
I think the point is that
if something happened it was meant to happen. At least that’s how I feel about it.
Some heterosexual couples choose not to have children does that mean they have a chemical imbalance or are going against what is meant to happen? Or are they just doing what makes them happy?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
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"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
I have no problem accepting gays
That’s better than nothing.
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by PPP on Jul 7, 2010 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
There’s no Master Plan, and there’s no normal. And if people are born with something, then that is a product of evolution.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
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by Megalodon on Jul 7, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well-put.
Master Plan implies Intelligent Design, which in turn implies Creationism, which in turn makes me want to cry.
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Traktor:
Homosexuality and homosociability have been major parts of most world cultures throughout recorded history, and was highly accepted. Our intolerance of it is more likely an illness or an aberration.
Gilgamesh shagged Ekindu, Achilles shagged Patroclus, Christopher Marlowe loved teenaged boys, Oscar Wilde was tolerated until he stood up for himself and Churchill applauded “rum, sodomy and the lash” as the glue that held the admiralty together.
Frankly the notion of Hetero vs Homo is pretty novel. A lot of cultures saw reproducing as a duty and sex, “gay” or otherwise, as a leisure.
The history nerd in me feels obliged to say that when Churchill spoke of “rum, sodomy, and the last”, it wasn’t a compliment. He preceded the phrase with “don’t talk to me about naval tradition, it’s nothing but…”, for one thing. He was an old British army regular officer, and as First Lord of the Admiralty he did nothing more exuberantly than try to blow Volkswagen-sized holes in naval tradition.
by Benjamin Massey on Jul 7, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Well,
I’ll stand corrected on churchill’s quote, but he did support homosexuality privately, even if he conceded to the political pressures of the day publicly.
And the broader point still stands: Homosexuality, on the whole, was a very normal thing in many societies and it wasn’t until a certain jewish doomsday cult took off that major western powers really took notice of it negatively.
Like Ben, I’m a history nerd, and I also feel obliged to point out that Churchill’s famous ‘rum, sodomy and the lash’ quote was less an example of historical accuracy and more an example of appealing to common notion of what the experience must have been like. I’ll leave the inaccuracies of the rum and lash bits aside, since they’re irrelevant to the discussion, but with regard to sodomy, here’s a quote from Arthur Herman’s excellent To Rule The Waves:
As for “sodomy,” the careful research of N.A.M. Rodger and other scholars indicates that homosexuality was no more prevalent in the navy than anywhere else in British society, and probably a good deal less. “A ship at sea was about the most difficult place to commit sodomy,” writes Rodger, “and moreover it was almost the only crime in the Navy for which the death penalty was often awarded.” The reason for the severity was not far to seek: few things could undermine the solidarity of a ship’s company faster than suspicion of a “bugger” on board, especially with teenagers and even preteens a regular part of the crew.
In any case, I think the whole point about cultural acceptance of homosexuality in history is misguided, for several reasons. The most relevant reason is that the acceptance of the practice in ancient culture is no more reasonable a standard to declare it acceptable than the lack of acceptance of it in many areas today. Morality may not be independent of culture, but we certainly shouldn’t point to cultural norms as either a support or a criticism of a moral judgement. The second reason is that for every example of culturally accepted homosexuality, there are examples of ancient cultures where it was not accepted – for example, Biblical Israel.
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by Jonathan Willis on Jul 7, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I've rescinded the Churchill comment.
As for the cultural stuff:
Traktor was using pseudo-science to confirm his cultural norm. I pointed out that what he thinks is “normal” has not always been thought so, and frankly, has RARELY been thought so throughout world cultures. This isn’t a moral judgement, this is fact. He’s using his morality to try and pawn off a theory as ridiculous as aryan superiority, I’m demonstrating that homosexuality has been more of a normal thing in the human chronicle than abnormal.
Your example of Biblical Israel is a very poor choice, as there is evidence that homosexuality was a normal, fully condoned act in the ancient middle east. Throughout europe, asia and africa, there are abundant examples of normal, homosexual practices.
As for:
for every example of culturally accepted homosexuality, there are examples of ancient cultures where it was not accepted
I’ll take that challenge, and I’ll win.
And the mythology nerd in me feels compelled to point out that romance between Gilgamesh and Enkidu, as well as Achilles and Patroclus is an interpretation, and not ever explicitly stated.
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But the cultures they belonged to explicitly condoned and approved of homosexual relationships and most modern criticism mostly supports the view they were homosexual relationships.
That's fair to say, yes.
But again, the criticism is just an interpretation. There are other historical works (at least Ancient Greek, I’m not sure about Mesopotamian) where homosexual relationships are far more explicit.
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Yes.
There are, but I was really just making off the cuff examples of popular figures, mythical and real, from different cultures and ages that were examples of tolerance for homosexual behavior.
People got nit picky, which is fair, but I think Achilles and Patroclus are better known than Phaedrus and Lysias, so I used them. I think my point still stands despite the picked nits.
Also joined to comment
I’m a bi female hockey fan (Penguins), and I really appreciate this for multiple reasons. I’m married to another woman; she is the one who got me into hockey, the “Beloved” I refer to in my signature. (I have been gender-neutral on sports forums until people get to know me because I don’t feel like derailing the forum…like defending my very life. I watch sports to get away from that nonsense.)
We have caught hell for holding hands and acting “coupley” in arenas. I particularly remember the time we saw the Penguins play the Islanders. Penguins won. We kissed in the parking lot. An Isles fan yelled, “F*** you, you f***ing Pittsburgh dykes!” We regarded it as kinda funny, and he was probably just reaching for the word he thought would hurt us most. But sports fans—not just hockey—reach for homophobic epithets so casually. They’re not just insulting fans of the other team. They’re insulting entire groups of people. They’re unknowingly making things harder for friends, for their kids, for co-workers, etc, as well as for the players and other people associated with sports.
We feel sorry for men. We have friends of all genders and orientations over to watch games quite often. Part of the reason why certain friends love to come over is that we provide a friendly place for LGBT fans to be open. My wife’s best friend, a bi man, can treat his husband like his husband. The gay and bi guys can talk about a player being good-looking. The guys aren’t gonna get that in most sports bars. Holding hands in the arena and kissing in the parking lot would be absolutely out of the question for them—we women may get some verbal abuse, but there’s a good chance men might get more.
I feel really sorry for the players, coaches, announcers, and support staff. The law of averages dictates that a few are going to like members of their own gender. Yet there are good reasons why they’d be afraid to live honestly, at least where the fans can see it. As another poster alluded to, the perceived need for cover may wind up making straight women and children suffer as well. Players start in the system so young, just as they’re getting to know themselves. It sucks that they feel forced to choose between the sport they’ve loved all their lives and the romantic love they deserve.
I am glad Brendan and Brian Burke helped to open some doors. I wish Brendan was still alive, and I think the real test will be when a player comes out or is forced out. I’m glad Brent Sopel showed some real support—hell, I’d like to see the Stanley Cup at Pride parades become a tradition! I’m glad also for articles like this, and most of the commenters here. Thank you. Good luck to Edmonton—not that I want y’all to have our Cup, of course, but I hope the team gets much closer!
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Have you read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano? She talks about “the scapegoating of femininity,” which she says is the reason gay men and trans women are targets of revulsion and ridicule more than lesbians and trans men. I’m a lifelong feminist and this theory makes so much sense to me – even points out some of the prejudices I have about “acting girly” that are really unfair.
I haven’t read that book, but I’m interested, especially since I’m pretty femme in most ways. The premise makes sense.
We were treated quite nicely when we went to Pittsburgh to watch games, and in Detroit, too. But we were wearing the “right” jerseys and supporting the “right” teams, so there’s that. I should maybe add that we live in NYC and took that trip to see our teams play at home in lieu of spending Christmas with my homophobic family. For us, then, hockey was a refuge.
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by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 8, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Cool to see that multiple Penguins fans came here to express support. One of the reasons I like Pensburgh is that it’s a pretty safe space for women and LGBT folks. The very few times I’ve seen anti-gay slurs, someone usually responds negatively and that’s it. And it’s never the regulars.
That’s why I like it, too, and most other SBNation blogs. I shy away from many others.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
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by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 8, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
It sucks that they feel forced to choose between the sport they’ve loved all their lives and the romantic love they deserve.
It’s even more basic than that. It’s choosing between a slim chance at a career and living a normal life.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Yeah, that’s more like it. I was just letting my thoughts and fingers fly while taking a break at work, but you’re absolutely right.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 8, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
But sports fans—not just hockey—reach for homophobic epithets so casually. They’re not just insulting fans of the other team. They’re insulting entire groups of people. They’re unknowingly making things harder for friends, for their kids, for co-workers, etc, as well as for the players and other people associated with sports.
I understand this entirely, but it’s not just sports fans, it’s societal. I think a ton of people would tell you they were totally in support of gay rights, and then turn around and call someone a “Faggot.” Why? Because to them and a lot of people, the word’s meaning has changed. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t mean the same thing to someone else who heard it. To some, "Fags’ means gay, to some it means “douchey motorcyclists.”
I’m not excusing the behavior, just kind of explaining it. The only thing about you I dislike is the team you root for (/snark).
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There is some truth here
words meanings change over time. Faggot obviously came from the old English word fagot which meant a bundle of sticks. Gay used to me happy. Words change and gain new meanings. “Gay” for instance has gained a new meaning. It now means that something sucks or is stupid. The problem is that there is a link between things that are stupid and shitty and an entire group of people. One of my bosses is a homosexual and he says “that’s gay” sometimes. I think it has become so pervasive that people forget it’s harmful qualities. In fact there is a regular poster on Nucks Misconduct who calls things, especially soccer, gay and claims it doesn’t have anything to do with homosexuality. The problem is that it does and we need to be mindful of the words we use and how they can affect people around us. We also need to be more respectful, tolerant and understanding overall. Not just of homosexuality but of all different walks of life.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
I agree and I’m horribly guilty of this.
I’m pretty accepting. In fact my daughter’s “god parents” (I use that term loosely) are my wifes uncles… who happened to be married to each other. I was the one who suggested it. I also work with 2 lesbians and we make gay jokes all the time.
I think it’s like anything else, you have to know who you are around. I’ve never used gay slang maliciously, but I have used it and I have joked about it around people I know. I certainly wouldn’t be using it in downtown T.O. near the village. Much like we make some racial jokes in our office (very ethnicially diverse) to each other. I certainly wouldn’t be pulling them out in public.
Just to save my own ass…
"god parents" (I use that term loosely)
I just mean we do not practice any sort of religion, but we did want our daughter to have someone that had that role (in a non-religious way).
Basically someone who she could learn valuable lessons from, trust, use for support, etc… everything my wife and I have used our god parents for. We had no other term for it.
No worries
The meaning holds fine – and frankly, it’s a good idea. I believe that the more people around a child, the better.
When you rely on a single source for your information, you’re at the mercy of that source.
I get what you’re saying, but those words’ meanings haven’t changed enough for my taste yet.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
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by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 8, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Fantastic work, Derek, as usual.
It is the juniors stuff that would worry me the most….if only because I just recently graduated high school and know exactly how homophobic the athletes at that age are. The immaturity is off the scales. Add in the fact that these kids are miles and miles away from a support system, the day-to-day life must be so harrowing. And it’s not just hockey, it’s all sports at that age that look down upon homosexuals. It takes an open mind at that age…I’m straight, but have many friends who are not, and I know they feel appreciative that they are accepted, and I feel like my life is better having them as friends. But it’s so, so hard at our age to get past the immaturity towards homosexuality…But I am encouraged by the attention the Burkes and Sopel have brought to the situation, and there is obviously a window of opportunity for the NHL to begin changing the culture and attitude of not just their sport, but of all of the professional sports leagues. It can never be fully eradicated, of course, but it can be lessened. It starts from the top, though, and then it trickles down….I’m optimistic the NHL will take this opportunity and run with it.
Nicely done, Derek.
This is a subject which sorely needs addressed in professional sports as a whole.
I’m a Flyers fan, and when I saw the “Pronger is Gay” picture, I didn’t bat an eye. But that’s probably because I’m a straight male who has heard the word “gay” used so many times with NO connection to sexual orientation. Think about it. How many times have we heard someone say something like, “Oh, you got a $50 parking ticket just because your meter ran out? That’s gay.” So when I saw “Pronger is Gay,” I thought of it as a generic put-down, nothing more. But that’s the problem with perception: If something does not directly relate to us, we cannot relate to it. When words like “gay” are tossed around so casually, we lose sense of the weight behind those words – especially if we are straight.
It’s not acceptable to put someone down or do them injustice because of race, creed, or gender. So why, in some circles, is it acceptable to do so due to sexual orientation? I’m no expert, but to me the difference is again one of perception. No one views race or gender as a choice, yet some view homosexuality as a choice rather than a biological matter. I have met some folks who have this view and have no issues with homosexuality; I have met others who equate homosexuality with murder, robbing banks, etc. It’s really a shame.
I work in recovery as a GED instructor and job developer. When I first started, I was surprised at the number of people I met who identified as homosexual. I came to understand how hard it was for many of them to allow their true feelings to be known. They felt they couldn’t turn to family or friends. Alone with their pain and repressed feelings, they turned to drugs and/or alcohol. Understanding this made me begin to wonder about another troubling aspect of hockey, the culture of alcohol abuse. But that’s neither here nor there.
Now’s as good a time as any to bring our old friend Buckminster Fuller into the conversation: “We are not going to be able to operate Spaceship Earth successfully nor for much longer unless we see it as a whole spaceship and our fate as common. It has to be everybody or nobody.”
That goes not only for the hockey world, but for all of us.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
What about misogyny?
I’m very happy to see this turning around. Hockey fans & commentators are the only people I associate with who still find homophobic and misogynistic jokes “acceptable”.
However, before Pronger was “gay” there was the “Crissy Pronger” incident. It seems obvious to me that the homophobia in hockey is partly a symptom of misogyny in hockey. It’s womanly to sleep with men, and femininity is repulsive in hockey culture.
A few people have gay sons, but lots more people have daughters. What are we teaching them about their value to society?
That battle has, for the most part, already been fought. Women aren’t afraid to act like women. Women aren’t afraid to act like men, either - they aren’t alienated for being girly-girls or tom-boys. Homosexuals of both genders have a much harder time, and in the sporting world -especially at junior levels they can be left with absolutely nowhere to turn, and forced to live in quite fear of just being what they were born to be.
So why can’t men act like women? Why is “Crissy Pronger” funny? Why do haters talk about Cindy Crosby?
I don’t want to derail this, and I absolutely agree that being queer can mean you have some big struggles to deal with, that shouldn’t be made light of.
Yeah, it is misogynistic to put men down by giving them feminine names. But it just isn’t the same. It’s a “words will never hurt me” situation, not one in which people are made to fear for their careers, relationships and sometimes lives.
If we do want to derail things though, rightly or wrongly, grade-school girls are considered people that whine and pout when they don’t get what they want. And they’re also… well… little girls. They aren’t strong, they aren’t tough, they aren’t physical. If you want to put NHL’ers down, isn’t effectively calling them emotionally and physically weak cry-babies an effective way to do so?
The situations just arent the same, imo.
But that’s the thing – on average, grade school girls (I’m thinking 8-12 years old) actually are taller and faster than grade school boys. It’s an unfair stereotype.
Sure, they cry when they fight, so maybe they’re not “tough” by some definition, but I wouldn’t say they’re emotionally weak. Have you read about the kind of bullying preteen girls put each other through?
At any rate, I do see your perspective. But I’d still be happier if we called them babies or pansies and just left gender out of it. Thanks for a fun argument!
Call them babies and you’re offending toddlers. Call them pansies and you’re offending flowers. Someone could step-up and say “NO! the flower is actually quit resilient! I resent your attempts to bash a man by likening him to such a beautiful creation!” Verbal insults are always offensive to someone or something. That is the reason they are hurled. But the issue here isn’t that feelings might be hurt, the issue is that lives are ruined because men and women are forced to live in fear and isolation simply because of the people they choose to date.
The two, homophobia and misogyny, are very much two sides of the same coin in a sports context. Sports is, essentially, the worship of masculinity and anything which detracts from that is considered a slur.
Are things getting better? Well, if you measure progress by the number of people shouting “get up, you little girl!” at a diving opposition player, probably not. But where it counts – in terms of accepting women in the game, of accepting the women’s game as more than just a pale simulacrum – I’d argue that society is progressing.
by Benjamin Massey on Jul 7, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
*worship of the masculine*
The two, homophobia and misogyny, are very much two sides of the same coin in a sports context. Sports is, essentially, the worship of masculinity and anything which detracts from that is considered a slur.
I always hear this, and I agree with the first part and think I buy that most experience sports as described in the second part. But my god my appreciation of sports is quite far from worship of the masculine. For me it’s worship of the human form, athletic dexterity, mastery of communication between the “mind” and the body. For me, strength and masculinity are just a small sliver of that. But then I watch a lot of women’s tennis and women’s soccer, and I don’t get much of a charge out of seeing an NHL fight (on the contrary, it often feels so absurd).
Just sort of wondering aloud about this hyperfocus on the masculine in sports, what it fuels, and whether its degree itself is a problem.
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Of course, everyone has their own reasons for watching sports, but I think what I said is true as a generality. The most popular women’s tennis players are either admired for their looks rather than their play or, essentially, the masculine physical ideal in a female form (hello, Williams sisters). When has the Canadian women’s hockey team been more popular than when they started swigging beers and lighting up cigars on the ice after winning the gold medal, the sort of thing one associates far more with men (even associates with a caricature of men)?
by Benjamin Massey on Jul 7, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, like I said I think you’re right. It just set me off on an introspective tangent.
It’s funny, the CDN women’s team’s cigar episode didn’t make me like them any more, just made me appreciate that they got to celebrate like anyone would. (The whole “controversy” around it really took me off guard.) I actually don’t appreciate women’s hockey so much because the international rink seems too big for their size and speed (me, accustomed to big bodies on small NHL rinks), while I started to prefer women’s tennis (before Federer…and before the Williams sisters) because it isn’t quite so serve-ace dependent.
That’s all a whole lot of neither here nor there, but it does remind me that I’m into sports for some very different reasons than the general population, apparently. I get my fill of masculinity just by preening in the mirror.
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Hockey fans & commentators are the only people I associate with who still find homophobic and misogynistic jokes "acceptable".
It’s wrong but it’s not unique to hockey unfortunately.
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by PPP on Jul 7, 2010 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Women are targets, too
If you don’t remember, a common epithet that women in sports used on each other was “dyke”. Accusing any woman who was athletic as being abnormal isn’t a rare thing at all – the difference being that men are far more accepting of “lipstick lesbians” than either men or women are of very “fey” men.
As the old t-shirt goes, “I’m in favour of gay marriage if both chicks are hot.”
Good read
Not a bad take, but I feel the need to address something that frankly bugs the crap out of me. Have we become so hyper-sensitive as a society that we equate not approving or liking something to hatred? I’ve used the phrase ‘you don’t have to like it, you just have to put up with it’ on many occasions. Tolerance isn’t about embracing or approving of something, it’s about live and let live.
Absolutely people who beat or otherwise injure a person because of their sexual orientation should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. That’s about as intolerant as it gets. But this notion that if you don’t laud someone who comes out of the closet as courageous and applaud them then you must hate gays is asinine.
Remember kids, words are only as powerful as you allow them to be.
I agree. I don’t think we so much need full acceptance (not going to happen), rather we need this lack of acceptance to be less vocal (and physical).
It doesn’t affect you, so stop worrying about it.
Remember kids, words are only as powerful as you allow them to be.
But it’s not just about words. The animosity, distrust, tension…all of that affects the locker room and, in turn, affects the cohesion of the team. It’s hard to win when you don’t have a strong, cohesive unit. If the team starts to lose, players may blame the one who is “different.” Then it becomes an issue of employability, the “cancer in the locker room” label.
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Well done Derek Zona
…from an ILWT reader. Thank you for your words, let us, as hockey fans, continue to bring a greater awareness and acceptance of all cultures. I truly believe that sports will be the forum in which gay and lesbian tolerance has the best chance of being spread across the Continent.
My only disapointment
was that you managed a Canucks and Avs dig, but not a Flames one. You’re better than that.
Nice work Derek.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
“We need to make it clear to every hockey player – gay, straight, black, white, religious, atheist, tall, short, whatever – if you can play, we welcome you. "
Sports should be a pure meritocracy, where the only things that count are your skill and your value to the team. As such, it really does have a good chance of being a venue for this kind of greater acceptance.
Great article.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
amazing read, Zona. although i didn’t really appreciate the canucks dig in there…..
i am one of many people i know who support homosexuality. one of my friends was gay, and he faced a hard time when he came out of the closet and told his mom in grade 12. when i got to university, i became friends with the girl who lived below me in residence, and she had a serious girlfriend who plays recreational hockey. all my friends and i have been very supportive of them.
Brendan Burke’s story is truly inspiring, and i hope it helps other players to come out without feeling discriminated.
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Derek, great article and a lot of response.
I play Rec hockey in Edmonton. A couple weeks ago the team we were playing didn’t have enough players, they forfeited the game and most didn’t show (we still showed up to have a little scrimmage). But 2 of their players didn’t know the game was canceled. One of them came over to our room and asked if he and his buddy could play. Then he said “my friend is brown. Is that okay?”.
I didn’t think about it at the time, but obviously his friend has had issues before. None of us had any issues, and to try and lighten the comment a little one of us even added “we don’t care what his name is”.
I really like Brian Burke’s quote “If you can play we welcome you”. The game is so much richer with more people involved.
"my friend is brown. Is that okay?".
WHAT the hell? That really happened?
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
I’m a lesbian living in Edmonton, and for the most part I feel very fortunate that I’ve had a relatively easy time coming out and living my life openly gay. Most everybody in my life has been completely supportive of me, and I’ve personally never had to deal with gay slurs or insults (I’m probably lucky to be 23). But whenever I take a date to a hockey game, we’re invariably not going to hold hands when we’re walking past the Coliseum Inn because we don’t want to be discriminated against.
I agree with everything you said Derek. It would be wonderful for the NHL to take on such a progressive initiative. If there is a pro-gay/acceptance movement in hockey, or sports as a whole, I will be supporting it. I can’t wait until some tough SOB decides to come out to the world. Some people are going to have a tough time wrapping their heads around the fact that you don’t have to be straight to be a great hockey player.
ESPN Poll
Back in the April 5th issue, ESPN asked 50 random NHLers a bunch of questions, and one of them was “Do you think you have any gay teammates?” Twenty one of them said “yes”.
I also remember when Wendell Clarke had rumours swirling around him about being gay, and his coach at the time (Pat Quinn) said that any gay player on his team would be kicked off. Quinn thought he was defending Clarke rather than insulting gays, but that’s what the expectations were in 1998. It didn’t help that Clark was on the Lightning the next season…
Wendel Clark
He was always a favourite target of rumour mongers. The most common insult was “Wendel on the ice, Wendy off of it.”
I don’t remember Quinn saying that but that’s disappointing.
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by PPP on Jul 7, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
excellent piece
I hope that all hockey fans read it. It applies not only to hockey, but also how they deal with people in their normal day-to-day life.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Science nerd and proud of it!
Slowly we are shedding the shackles that religion mostly has bestowed upon civilization. Or is that opening another can of worms? I like what dawgbone98 said above:
I don’t think we so much need full acceptance (not going to happen), rather we need this lack of acceptance to be less vocal (and physical).
Slowly we are shedding the shackles that religion mostly has bestowed upon civilization. Or is that opening another can of worms?
It is another can of worms, although this seems to be the day for it. But as easy as it is to look at the negatives prevalent in varying religions, there are positives on both the individual and the societal level. We’d probably see more of that if practice was more closely related to principle, because the underlying principles are in many cases to the benefit of people everywhere. For instance, this one, related by Isaac Newton about Christianity, seems apt given the topic:
The other part of the true religion is our duty to man. We must love our neighbour as our selves, we must be charitable to all men for charity is the greatest of graces, greater then even faith or hope & covers a multitude of sins. We must be righteous & do to all men as we would they should do to us.
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by Jonathan Willis on Jul 7, 2010 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Great article Derek
Homophobia is not a subject that is regularly talked about in the context of hockey, despite it being somewhat prevalent. My thoughts of this echo with SumOil’s comment at the top of this page, where he says that those from third world countries can sometimes carry those prejudices with them from the homeland.
I am originally from Rwanda, but I was born here in Canada (born in Ottawa, moved to Vancouver when I was 7) and have lived here for my entire life. My parents are from Rwanda/Burundi and moved to Paris, France then Ottawa a year before I was born. I go back to Rwanda/Burundi every couple years for vacation and just by talking to my relatives/cousins who were born and grew up over there I was appalled to hear the sort of homophobia that they carry with them. This could to due to several things; very very strong religious presence in Africa, societal attitudes, ignorance, etc.. Growing up in Canada, I have been taught the doctrine of tolerance and acceptance that was taught in school. My parents, especially my dad, also helped foster an attitude of tolerance and acceptance for all people. What I am getting at is that homophobia typically takes a generation or two to be moved out of the popular consciousness. My parents obviously sped up the process by moving to Canada and a relatively tolerant/accepting city (Vancouver), but like SumOil and subsequent commenters have said, it takes a while for views as ignorant and irrational as homophobia to change and it requires every person to open their minds. I played soccer for a long time, and a little bit of hockey, and I can say that homophobia is prevalent in all sports, at least physical ones. A lot of the time it is harmless, mindless namecalling, but still, I am sure there are those who truly are homophobic.
To me, and Im sure someone will flame me for this, the acceptance of gays in the world is similar to the struggles that many black people faced in the States in the years since Lincoln freed the slaves and all the way through the civil rights movement. Of course there are differences in the movements, but at their core I feel they are the same. Acceptance, equal rights and freedom are what every person wants, and should receive. And at the very least this article is a good start.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 7, 2010 3:03 PM PDT reply actions
I hope you don't get flamed
Because you are right in framing it as a civil rights issue. Regardless of religious ideas or cultural history, what the acceptance of homosexuals in society is, at its heart, is a question of equal rights and treatment in society for a group that is a minority among those in power.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
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It doesn’t even have to be a minority. Women are a slight majority in our society, yet some of the antediluvian attitudes towards them remain, judging from some of the responses I read about women entering the Hockey Hall of Fame. Fortunately, those attitudes are themselves an (un)healthy minority, but they’re there. Such voices will remain and if anything become more strident in the face of progress.
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 7, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
True, but in many fields where women have the greatest difficulty in advancing they are a minority. My sister just completed a PhD in mechanical engineering, she worked for many years in industry before that, and she still encounters people who think that maybe she should think about going into sales because it might be a good job for a woman. She still encounters people who think that women really aren’t cut out for research and teaching in a field that is as technical and mathematical as engineering.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Science nerd and proud of it!
Which is fucking hilarious and stupid, since I have a friend who can program circles around me. (Granted, I haven’t really taken the kind of comp-sci she has, but even assuming equal knowledge, she’s more creative than me.)
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Since this is the appropriate article
I actually don’t like it when the homosexual civil rights struggle is compared to African-American one, or the woman one for that matter.
There are certainly some similarities, but there’s some major differences that go along with it. Homosexuals have always been able to (for the most part) hide their sexual preference, and therefore not be nearly as persecuted as African Americans. There has always been an element of violence against African Americans that just isn’t matched when it comes to homosexual rights. (not to say there hasn’t been violence there, but the violence against African-Americans has always been more commonplace) There’s never been a sexual orientation riot, as far as I can tell.
This isn’t to diminish the struggle of homosexuals at all, but it’s a much different one than faced/faces African Americans. I can see why African Americans bristle when the gay struggle is thrown into the same context as the African American one. They are different struggles with some similarities, but a lot of the suffering done by the persecuted comes in different forms.
The end goal is still the same, equality for all, but I just think grouping them together, as often happens, does a disservice to both African Americans and Gay rights.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
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by Jibblescribbits on Jul 7, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Thats why I said there are differences between the movements
As a black person myself I can see why other black people would bristle when they are grouped with gay people in the struggle category, but to me both groups want/wanted the same thing, and it will take a long time, just like the struggle for equal rights for black people. Actually I think homosexuals win when it comes to length of struggle. Black people have been persecuted since what, like 1300s-1400s (beginning of slave trade to N. America/Europe, not counting system of slavery that existed in Africa already)? I learned about it in my old History class in second year, but I have since forgotten the exact dates. Plus black people are a lot more identifiable too. Good points Jibb, but thats why I said there are differences.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 7, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree with you
it’s just an analogy and comparison that I think the homosexual movement (for lack of a better term) uses way too often. I think it undercuts their point because people do recognize that it’s different, and I think it alienates a community (Blacks) that might otherwise be more sympathetic to their plight.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
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by Jibblescribbits on Jul 7, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
but with time they may start to identify with their comrades in the struggle.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 8, 2010 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions
My mistake.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
The NYC Gay Pride Parade ends right in front of the Stonewall and there is a small park across the street with small statues dedicated to that riot.
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by Yankee Canuck on Jul 9, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
There has always been an element of violence against African Americans that just isn’t matched when it comes to homosexual rights. (not to say there hasn’t been violence there, but the violence against African-Americans has always been more commonplace)
Surely that’s only because of one of the first differences you cited, though — that homosexuals can “hide” this aspect of them while ethnic minorities could not hide their skin color? Judging by the kind of gruesome violence that has been committed against homosexuals, I’m quite sure it would be as prevalent if it were as easy for the culprits to identify their victims.
Not that we need to compare the suffering of either movement … but I suspect those differences are related to why homosexuals still do not have the same rights that heterosexuals (regardless of their skin) do.
Lighthouse Hockey: "A f#$%ing haven of reason compared to practically every other Islanders site." --TMC
Understood
I wasn’t trying to say the hatred either group faces was more or less, but that the experience (or manifestation) of that hatred is different. Making different experiences for both groups.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
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by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Really good read, Derek.
Sports should always be a meritocracy, simply because their goals are always purely driven by results. It’s disappointing that the major North American sports have always lagged behind society that sense, but hopefully the efforts of people like Burke and Sopel help change that.
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Terrific stuff Derek.
Its an interesting topic and as is my wont I am pretty positive about where society as a whole is moving. Times have changed and continue to change and while there will always be ignorance and hatred with regards to homosexuality (amongst other things) the reality is that these people, the ignorant, are slowly but surely being marginalized just as they would try and marginalize those who are different from them.
I’m from a pretty tough town and the difference in the attitudes in my niece and her peers as compared to our own when we were young and stupid are absolutely astounding. People just need to see that, well, people are people. Sounds trite but about a decade or so ago my old man had a friend have a sex change operation. This was a guy he had worked with, gone fishing with, known forever. And my Dad, nearly seventy at the time, and frankly the last guy I thought who would be ok with that (more because of his age and his experience – Dad’s not a hateful guy) was totally fine with the situation.
Just an example I think of how the world is changing and for the better. When an old northern Ontario guy is accepting of the differences between himself and others then I think we’re getting somewhere. Its a different world. There’s a long way to go. But its a different world..
Great article and an important one
and it’s nice to see that hockey fans from all over SBNation are coming together regardless of which team we cheer for and supporting this piece of writing and the cause it helps bring to light. Terrific stuff everyone.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Not that there's anything wrong with that ...
I love seeing articles like this reaching general sports fans, and it’s encouraging, though not unexpected (there’s a good crowd here at C&B), to see the many supportive comments. I think most people feel perfectly all right with this, but I also think their comfort is usually more of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” variety.
Please understand that this isn’t a dig at anyone commenting here, but I think it’s telling that our support often only comes when prompted, and goes little further than a pat on the back to the writer of an article, such as Derek in this case … when in fact our support should be tacit and active.
We talk about how things should change, how the NHL should adopt a more open and active policy, for instance, but how many of us do anything beyond commenting on a board? I include myself in this respect. It takes little more than a 2 sentence note to the NHL to make your support a little more tangible.
I hope this is okay, Derek, but here’s a link, and the NHL has a subject line built in for you called “NHL Diversity”. I just wrote them myself.
www.mjt.org
Thanks for the link
I just sent them a message and hopefully if enough people write to the NHL they will start to take notice of this issue.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
He's not
although just being tolerant is a start. It’s sets the right example for people to follow. But getting more involved will help further the cause even more.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
To stir the pot..kinda..this is a copy paste of what I said at NM
A great article indeed. The issue has been stuck on my mind now. Growing up in a small northern town that for most of its years was a redneck/church town, there was no acceptance of gay people at all. People thought to be gay were either beaten or treated as outcasts. That has changed in recent years.
Personally, I grew up in a religious household and believed homosexuality was a sin for about 90% of my young 36 year old life. It’s hard to break that train of thought when it was engraved into your skull for so long. But after I quit the faith a couple of years ago I have had no problem with the acceptance issue.
That’s the unfortunate tricky power that is christianity. The Bible says:
- "flee from homsexuality".
-Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in part to practicing homosexuality
-Homosexuality is called "detestable" in Leviticus.
-homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven
More on that here.
Some may find 2 people of the same sex partaking in love-making as gross. Most Christians, unless they consider the Bible outdated, or have some other explanation as to why homosexuality is ok today, have no choice in their faith to believe gay people are wrong, condemned, and can be healed by the power of Jesus.
Can be healed? Oh man. More proof that acceptance in certain christian circles is non-existent.
In the end, it will come down to christianity vs gays. The strong christians, who stand true behind the Bible, are not going to give in. Neither are gay people.
I don’t see many christians standing up for their beliefs at Copper and Blue.
If i have offended any christians reading this, make your voice be heard! Let’s put the moose on the table, as my friend always says.
Even if it’s detestable and they won’t enter heaven, doesn’t the Bible also say not to judge, for the ultimate judgement comes from God? A good friend of my fiancee is a devout Jew who’s also gay. I’ve met Christians who are openly gay who don’t believe they’re getting into heaven. Even if it is a sin, I know in the United States, though founded mostly on Christian ideals, the government is supposed to stay separate from religion. Some things are obviously going to permeate, and I don’t mean to get into a political discussion on this, but it’s pretty much inseparable from the gay bashing at some point. And certainly the bashing is protected to an extent under freedom of speech(And while I disagree with what gay bashers say, I’m 100% in support of their ability to say it), but the violence needs to stop, and hopefully more homosexuals can feel more comfortable with what they have going on inside, irrelevant of if it’s by choice of if they were born that way.
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I’m pretty sure the bible says not to judge others, but I’m also pretty sure the bible says to kill basically every man, woman and child one might come across. And then it says not to kill.
It is a horrible work of fiction and stupidity.
This is pretty blatantly ignorant. All Bibles are anthologies of various texts written over a very long period of time, so differences in perspective and genre ought to be expected. Further, it’s generally a pretty darn good historical source considering the time it was written. Myth-making is a big part of many of the texts in each of the biblical canons, but “a horrible work of fiction and stupidity” is ridiculous, at the same level as “God dictated every word of this book from heaven and controlled the hands of the writers.”
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I think your moose is missing a leg.
Whether or not you regard being gay as a particular sin is a side issue. The main point is that everyone is a sinner and by only accepting the Messiah into their lives can anyone be saved. The Bible, as far as I know, makes no difference between what the sins are, provided you accept Jesus. One or two verses out of thousands doesn’t change that main point of the whole faith. It certainly didn’t bother the Catholics I saw at this pride parade last year.
In practice, there are indeed churches that explicitly speak out against that, but there are those who are very welcoming and supportive as well. I go to the latter. I don’t bother with those in the former.
To your larger point, though, you couldn’t be any more wrong about how the issue is Christianity (or any other religion such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.) vs. Gays. Numerous denominations are wrestling with the issue currently and trying to come up with something that pleases everyone, but of course, actually pleases no one. Do I wish there was more progress? Of course. But I’m not so naive as to think thousands of years are going to change with one statement at a convention. Still, it’s not as simple and clear cut as one against the other; especially, as mentioned, more people are aware of the other as time has gone on.
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To your larger point, though, you couldn’t be any more wrong about how the issue is Christianity (or any other religion such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.) vs. Gays. Numerous denominations are wrestling with the issue currently and trying to come up with something that pleases everyone, but of course, actually pleases no one.
You are contradicting yourself there
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 7, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
As a Christian man, the only part I’m offended at is the idea that the strong Christians are the ones who read the Bible without questioning its contents. I know that my own faith became much more mature when I let go of the idea that “the Bible is always right no matter what.” I’m proud to be part of a faith community that supports homosexuals and enables not to choose only one of “being Christian” or “being gay”.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 7, 2010 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not religious
but I have no problem with anyone who is. In fact I try to respect all different belief systems as long as they help make people better human beings. I only have a problem with religious people who don’t understand that the books they worship from are fallible because they were written by people and people are fallible.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
as long as they help make people better human beings.
That condition is a bit of a doozy. It seems like it could leave you supporting either most belief systems or only your own.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 7, 2010 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
-Homosexuality is called “detestable” in Leviticus.
I believe in Leviticus it’s actually referred to as “an abomination”. But Leviticus also
-calls eating shellfish and pork an abomination
-says cursing your father is cause for death
- having sex while on the rag is cause for banishment (not to mention it calls a woman’s period a sickness)
- advocates slavery
- says we shouldn’t shave
- prohibits eating pork
- prohibits wearing fabric of two seeds
- eating shellfish is an abomination
I kind of understand some of the religious objection to homosexuality (sort of), but quoting Leviticus seems like the perfect case of warping the facts to fit your ideals.
(And I realize you’re more playing devil’s advocate here, and not necessarily preaching these points)
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 7, 2010 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
having sex while on the rag
Is that actually how it’s written in the bible Jibbles?
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
I believe so
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes it is, you’re wrong.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
eating shellfish and pork an abomination
Delicious, delicious abomination!
You should see the lengths orthodox Muslims go through to convince themselves that dogs are “filthy” animals… especially when you mention that you have one as a pet. 8)
for the time
Much of the instruction given to Israel in Leviticus with reference to food was to do with the handling of the food and whether it could be consumed safely. The instructions given were centuries ahead of the time in scientific understanding. Similarly, in desert climes without regular washing – the regulations regarding sex and the womans cycle were also different than other socieities and much safer. Uterine cancer in jewish women also a fraction of their peers right up to modern time with the direct link being circumsision of men.
So for those of you who think God doles out commands to be spiteful, and those who repeat them are bigots I thought I’d share those things with you.
There is a book called “None of These Diseases” which talks about alot of this – you can find it in your local Christian bookstore.
You can find it in regular libraries, too, and the connection between cancer in women and circumcision is tenuous, at best. Likewise the “safety” of having sex with women during their periods: neither of these are significant in any way in modern times, with any corresponding equivalent in current neolithic tribes.
Some gems from the book (paraphrased, of course):
Homosexuality leads to insanity; booze is bad (but no outright ban, for some reason…); prayer heals people (according to religious universities); and, of course, the entire thing is a brilliant example of taking what you want and interpreting it as you will. Retroactive confirmation is a wonderful thing!
The authours wanted to prove their theory before they wrote the text, and it’s astoundingly clear in what and how they pick and choose what will already confirm that theory and ignore the rest.
I’m more convinced reading a Dan Brown novel.
I had a longer comment, but upon re-reading it, it didn’t say what I wanted it to say,
But I think you’re wrong here, Sean, in a couple of ways.
First, and most importantly, people don’t need to be taught to embrace homosexuality. People need to be taught that every human being on this planet – regardless of race, age, creed, orientation, or any other factor – deserves respect, basic human dignity, and justice.
Secondly, the idea that it must be Christians vs. Gays precludes that belief above. We will always have a society where people are ideologically opposed, for various reasons. We aren’t capable – and even if we were capable, it wouldn’t be right – of enforcing a standardized ideology for people to believe in. The Church tried it in the Middle Ages, and the results were abhorrent. What we can, as a society learn – what we must learn – is that our value as human beings does not stem from any of the factors mentioned above, but from the fact that we are human beings. If we can learn that, ideology won’t matter.
A posse ad esse.
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by Jonathan Willis on Jul 7, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
This
What we can, as a society learn – what we must learn – is that our value as human beings does not stem from any of the factors mentioned above, but from the fact that we are human beings. If we can learn that, ideology won’t matter.
Well said J-Dub.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 8, 2010 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Well said sir.
As an angry canuck fan, I applaud your sentiments here and support the idea that the institutions should take an active role in creating a good environment for all players, and that homophobia in sports is nothing but an unnecessary blight detracting from the pure human achievement.
Thank you.
A Canucks fan from Nucks Misconduct, and someone who knows the Bible very well.
First of all, the word ‘Christian’ is supposed to mean ‘follower of Christ’, right? Then, what the h*ll were all those people in the middle ages mentioned above doing calling themselves ‘christians’? So-called christianity has been at the root of so much bloodshed that they don’t have any right to dictate what is right and wrong, and thereby discriminate against any group of people.
Why am I saying this? Because it irritates me that so many people call themselves Christian and yet they live their lives with complete disregard to what Christ actually taught and why the Bible states he came to the earth. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 (1769 Oxford edition of the King James translation) reads: “3For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Also, Luke 6:37 (Jesus’ own words on the Sermon at the Mount) – “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven”.
The Bible’s premise is simple: if you want to please God (and receive the reward for doing so), you need to follow certain rules. These rules involve homosexuality, but they also include refraining from sex of any kind outside of marriage. Scripture; 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 – “9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
Why I choose to follow the Bible is my own decision, but a true follower of the Bible and of Christ will never discriminate against their fellow man, regardless of who or what they are. Those who use their “religion” as an excuse to hate are complete hypocrites, and will not “inherit the kingdom of God” either, regardless of what they may think.
In conclusion, even though I don’t approve of homosexuality, I also, for example, don’t approve of cheating, gambling, drunkenness, gluttony, and ‘fornication’ as used in the Bible. Does that give me an excuse to discriminate against people that choose to live this way? No, it does not. Just like I appreciate not being discriminated against based on my religious beliefs, I will also act the same way toward my fellowman. In doing so, I follow “the golden rule”: Matthew 7:12, “12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” Just because I choose not to be a homosexual does not give me the right to prevent others from doing so; there is also a huge difference between preventing someone from doing something and tolerating it. I tolerate lifestyles that the Bible condemns because it tells me that I am not entitled to judge others.
All of this said, I appreciate the article and the comments because we are all exercising our freedom of speech in a civil and friendly manner. This will also have been my one and only post where I quote the Bible, but I did it for a very specific purpose, and I in no way have meant to offend anybody by doing so. I am merely stating my opinion and the reason why I feel that way.
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
Firstly, a sincere thanks for your contribution here. It really is appreciated. Secondly, if you’re not interested in getting into a theological conversation, I most definitely understand and this may not be the place for it. But I like theology, and there were a couple of questions that jumped to mind in reading your response, though not about the issue of homosexuality in particular. Do you think “the Bible” – defined as whichever group of books you and/or your community has decided upon since different groups have different anthologies – as a whole has one premise? I will betray myself here and say that, in my estimation, the individual books are sometimes at cross-purposes, or at least in dialogue with one another. There are frequently different perspectives in the collection on the same issue or event. The other thing that comes to mind is the use of the phrase “Jesus’ own words” with regard to Luke’s gospel. To what degree do you think these – by which I mean Luke in general, or any of the other gospels for that matter – can be called Jesus’ words? Finally, what does it mean to you to be a “follower of the Bible”? Further, in your view, is it possible to be a follower of Christ without being a follower of “the Bible”?
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 3:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Scott,
The questions you bring up are very relevant and, in my opinion, reflect that you like to be completely sure of everything you choose to believe in. I appreciate that because, believe it or not, I am the same way. Before resolving to accept the beliefs and lifestyle I described above, I made sure that I had all the bases covered and there were no loose questions that would have the capacity to ‘unravel’ the whole picture. I say this because you can’t possibly know who I am or what I look like, which in itself does not matter, but none of what I say here will carry any weight because of the relative ease with which anyone can make a post and say whatever they want, with almost complete anonymity. This is why I choose not to discuss my beliefs through any kind of online media, and instead I discuss them with people who are willing to discuss them in person; this also serves to demonstrate what kind of person I am and that I am not a “fanatic” or someone who lives differently from what I profess to believe.
Because I want to keep this discussion ‘on-topic’ for the sake of this excellent article, and your questions are “not about the issue of homosexuality in particular”, I will not answer them publicly. I would be happy to do so through email or private message, whatever method is most convenient. This is the only time I have talked about religion online, and I feel that I had a very good reason to do so, but it will most likely be the last time as well. I appreciate the sport of hockey for what it is, and I love to watch it because of the immense skill that the players employ to be able to entertain us the way they do. As for who the person handling the puck really is, that does not matter to me in the least, nor should it matter to anyone. I believe that people to whom this does matter have greater issues that they need to deal with underneath the facade of discriminative intolerance.
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
That’s totally cool. If you want to continue the conversation in a more private setting, my email address is at the bottom of the page. Perhaps we can work something out.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
You know this one, then:
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”
Luke 6:46
Love that one.
Wow
Ok several things,
In the bible homosexuality is called an abomination. So is eating shellfish or pigs, but Kosher law was lifted when God told Peter to eat the unclean animals.. But the ban against sodomy and homosexuality was NOT. To all the sodomites out there, you need to repent of your sin, embrace Jesus Christ and do as God commands. To the writer of this article, you need to repent for condoning this type of crap.
Jesus said “If you love me keep my commandments.”
Do that. Repent and believe the gospel.
Remember these words the next time you are jerking off in your mom’s basement to the sears catalogue.
by dawgbone98 on Jul 8, 2010 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And that’s fine, you’re trying to save our souls, I can dig that. But can’t you at least accept the fact that God will judge the people who he’s spoken against? Don’t you think that’s worse than anything that you can do or say to any homosexuality?
If God’s as rough around the edges as you say, I’ll take my chances elsewhere by accepting these people as people. Because that’s what they are. If you’re disgusted by it, don’t do it, you did your part.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
If God’s as rough around the edges as you say, I’ll take my chances elsewhere by accepting these people as people. Because that’s what they are. If you’re disgusted by it, don’t do it, you did your part.
The “God” skiboy is talking about is NOT the God of the Bible. See my other posts for why I say that.
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
The "God" skiboy is talking about is NOT the God of the Bible
That’s the trouble though – because there are so many passages of the Bible that you can quote to support basically any opinion you want, whether admirable or asinine, there is no such thing as a biblical God in any consistent sense.
skiboy’s homophobic hillbilly god is just as real and supported by the Bible as any other interpretation that we more accepting people might find more palatable. Giving any part of the book credence while ignoring the awful stuff that is in there as being “not really Christian” does a lot of harm. It would be better to just advocate open-mindedness and morality without attempting to ground it in the Bible at all.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
The sum of it is
God said be fruitful and multiply.
He created marriage not for adults – but for the raising of children. When we think we have a “right” to be happy as opposed to fulfulling our purpose here, it is when we develop a society that is self centred as opposed to self sacrificing.
If you build computers and you spend all your time and effort building the best computer ever, wouldn’t it make you sad if someone used it as a boat anchor. Wouldn’t that be a slap in your face ? Someone could use it as a boat anchor, but wouldn’t you as creator say – I have created you for a higher purpose ?
Even polishing it up like this, it’s still a loathsome and misanthropic idea. Where does this invisible tyrant get off trying to tell us how to live? He’s not human, he doesn’t know what it’s like. We’re humans, and we’re just here trying to figure out how to live happily with one another and ourselves. God didn’t invent marriage or people, so we have just as much of right to figure out how to do things as anyone else as long as we’re not hurting anyone.
all your time and effort
There is no time or effort for a god, so this is a meaningless analogy. It’s easier for him to make a universe as it is for me to sit on my ass and complain about it if he’s really omnipotent. If I want to decide what to do with my life it’s nobody else’s business, up to the point I’m hurting someone else.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
But He does
That’s the difference between Christianity and other religions. He does know what is like because God the Father sent his son to earth to live life as a man and understand everything about how diffiicult the life on earth is. Then, despite his great love for his Son, he gave him up for all of his creation.
Invisible ? Can you see hear, taste or smell radio waves? Are you limiting the possible existnce of God to your feeble senses or the fact that you haven’t developed the technology to detect him ?
The perspective that you have has no hope – there is no higher purpose – we evolved from nothing for no reason. That produces a world view that we just need to leave each other alone " let it be" . Once quote from the bible is All is permissible but all is not beneficial.
Or
the idea/concept of Morals and treating each other humanely evolved because it’s best way for the human species to survive. As those who were prone to leave others alone and be jerks died out because in order for our species to survive it took teamwork, communities and reliance on others
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Right on. What about this is difficult to understand? A society that DIDN’T cooperate and love one another would have fallen apart and not developed. Therefore all complex civilizations have a system of similar rules that they developed detailing the proper way to interact and treat one another with respect.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
He does know what is like
No, he doesn’t. First of all, because none of that ever happened, but second of all, because if Jesus was truly god then his sacrifice and death are meaningless. Why does it matter if he dies if he was just going to come back to life anyway? I know the answers apologists give, but that doesn’t make it any more sensible.
the fact that you haven’t developed the technology to detect him ?
We can’t detect invisible pink unicorns in space either – why not base your philosophy on them?
there is no higher purpose – we evolved from nothing for no reason.
The fact that humanity, a product of blind evolution, has evolved to a point where it can contemplate its own existence and come up with rules about how to treat each other without an appeal to any higher authority is awesome. Including a non-existent rule-giving fairy man cheapens the incredible accomplishments of mankind.
Humans came up with morals on their own, and it’s not fair for religion to try and steal the credit for it.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Humans came up with morals on their own, and it’s not fair for religion to try and steal the credit for it.
It seems to me that religion was, and often still is, a pretty important part of this process.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Seems to me it’s the parents that are an important part of this process. Not religion.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Making that into an either/or is kind of silly. Both families and larger communities (whether it’s a religious community or something else) have a large impact.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Making up stories helps explain it, but the actual stories themselves are irrelevant. I would ask any person who claims to get their morals from religion – If the Bible (or whatever) said it was okay to murder your children, would that make it okay? If your answer is yes, you’re crazy, and if it’s no then that proves that we have our own independent sense of morality that religions merely confirms and codifies.
“The Science of Good and Evil” by Michael Shermer covers this way better than I can.
We’ve also gotten off topic, so I’ll say: homosexuality has nothing to do with morality, and the NHL would be wise to promote acceptance of everybody except people who suck at hockey.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
and the NHL would be wise to promote acceptance of everybody except people who suck at hockey
and Red Wings fans
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
I don’t think that people having an independent sense of morality requires God not to exist. That seems like a false (and odd) dichotomy to me. Further, if stories help people to internalize morality, or to think about how they ought to live in new ways, then they aren’t irrelevant. People are often inspired by narrative in a way that they won’t be by other forms of speech, and that can be a very good thing. That’s one of the reasons people read stories (biblical or otherwise) to their children and continue to read – and more and more, watch – stories themselves. As for homosexuality having nothing to do with morality, why do you say so? I don’t have any problem with folks practicing homosexuality but I’m interested in what kinds of things you think can be moral and immoral if sexual conduct is excluded.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think that people having an independent sense of morality requires God not to exist.
Not what I said – I’m saying that because we have our own independent source of morality that proves religion is NOT necessary for people to be good. I wasn’t arguing against God here.
People are often inspired by narrative
Fine, but that doesn’t mean those narratives should be treated as any different or more correct then Aesop’s fables, and yet they are given WAY too much power and credence.
I’m interested in what kinds of things you think can be moral and immoral if sexual conduct is excluded.
Anything that hurts other people is immoral, but anything that only brings happiness to me and those I interact with is acceptable. It’s the golden rule, and all religions have it. Any kind of consensual sexual activity is completely independent of morality.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
I clearly misunderstood what you meant above, my apologies. I agree that religion isn’t necessary for people to be good. As to your point about all narratives being treated equally, I may disagree depending on your meaning. I don’t think one set is intrinsically more important for all people everywhere, so if that’s all you meant, then you and I are in full agreement. That said, for religious communities that have a shared group of stories, it makes total sense to regard their stories as more important than all others. Sharing these stories, exploring their meaning, and ritualizing them is one of the things that holds the community together. In some ways, fan communities are similar. Neither the Oilers or Sharks are intrinsically more important than every other club in the NHL but each of us choose to cheer for one, largely to the exclusion of others, and we are moved by the ups and downs of that one in a very real way that we are not by the others. We create meaning by establishing various (often informal) rituals and by investing ourselves in a community of people with similar ideas. This kind of engagement and myth-making seems like an instinctive human impulse to me.
As to the question of morality, I think we must have different definitions of the term. To me, “any kind of consensual sexual activity is permissible” sounds a lot like a moral norm that is designed to both include right behaviour and exclude wrong behaviour. It’s a sensible starting point but I don’t understand how it’s independent of morality.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 9, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
If the Bible (or whatever) said it was okay to murder your children, would that make it okay?
My answer to that is that if it did, I would not be supporting it in any way. You can quote Leviticus all you want, but if you’ve never read the whole Bible, how can you possibly claim to know what it talks about?
Again, I am not condemning you at all, just pointing out why my faith in the Bible is so strong. I have read the Bible, cover to cover, three times; none of those times did I encounter a teaching that goes against common sense and decency. The Bible has helped me to be a better person, and I have no reason to claim that I’ve just decided to become one because I am somehow superior to others.
Finally, I decided that the Bible was for me when my mother was muslim and my father didn’t believe in the existence of a god at all. We all have freedom of choice, and my choice is to live a life that I feel is best for me and everyone around me. I have yet to hear someone tell me that I made the wrong decision when I followed the principles that are taught in the Bible. As one who has actually studied the Bible in its entirety, I can guarantee you that anyone who wants to can achieve happiness and satisfaction by living according to what it really teaches.
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
none of those times did I encounter a teaching that goes against common sense and decency.
SLAVERY
MURDER
KILLING OF CHILDREN
You and I have different definitions of common sense and decency, friend. I’ve read your book too, and I’m unimpressed.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Not arguing, just pointing out the difference between
I’ve read your book too, and I’m unimpressed. (what you said)
and
As one who has actually studied the Bible in its entirety, (what I said)
I have presented, very clearly, why I feel the way I do about this book, and why taking things from it just to condemn a particular group of people, like homosexuals, doesn’t work. In the list that you have there, you are essentially doing the same thing. You are taking a passage from the book, pointing out how wrong and outrageous it is, and thereby saying that the millions of people worldwide who live according to the Bible condone slavery, murder, and the killing of children. In doing so, you are no different than the bigots who insist that the only way to gain “salvation” and escape eternal damnation in hell is to ‘repent’ and accept Jesus as Lord.
That aside, though, there is no point in arguing this point further. The bottom line is, we are all humans capable of drawing our own conclusions based on our conscience; in this case, neither of us is murderer or a slayer of children, so I would venture to say that whatever it is that motivates us to be good people is what we should stick with. It has been a pleasure exchanging viewpoints. :)
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
That’s all based on the assumption there is a god to begin with. Not everyone agrees on that. So we can determine for ourselves what our purpose is not what others tell us it should be based on their assumptions. :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Our purpose is to rock out and root for the Sharks. High five!
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
I don't know why anyone would do this.
The latter part, not the former. :)
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
If priests do God’s work on earth and priests pillage the butts of little boys, is God’s work pillaging the butts of little boys?
To quote Thursday's...
…quote: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46
They can say whatever they want about being “God’s workers” on earth; in reality, THEY are the ones deserving of punishment. If hell was real, I would send them there myself (if I had the power of God, that is.)
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
just men
Priests are just men who make mistakes too. That doesn’ t mean it is condoned by God or the church.
I think with the church protecting these priests sorta does mean they condoned it. They certainly didn’t do anything to help put the priests behind bars where they belonged.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
This is probably the most unfortunate part of that whole situation. It’s one thing when an individual does something heinous. It’s a far worse tragedy when the violence against someone is institutional because it perpetuates injustice.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Great point. It isn’t fair to blame all members of a religion for the actions of a few, but it IS fair to criticize an organization that protects child rapists, and to question those who remain loyal to that organization.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Absolutely.
Which one of the major religions stood up to Hitler when he went on his self-righteous rampage? None. NOT ONE of these ultra-powerful and wealthy organizations had the guts to protest the heinous crimes that he was committing. I will never support a religious organization that condones such atrocities; in this case, failure to act equals condonation.
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure Judaism is a major religion, and it wasn’t too fond of Hitler.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
Yes, but what could THEY do?
Unfortunately, Judaism was powerless to do anything about it even if they wanted to because half of their members were being mass murdered at concentration camps. Could they have done something had the Catholic Church, for example, condemned Hitler’s actions and, I don’t know, even expelled Hitler from their religion? I’d bet my bottom dollar that they could have.
There was only one group of people, non-Jews, that actively spoke out against Hitler’s atrocities. They were too few to make any kind of major impact, but Hitler tried to eradicate them too. I will let you do your own research if you are curious about who these people were.
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
Here’s an added tidbit for you – When you hear “Separation of Church and State” – especially in the American lexicon – most people think it is to ensure that the Church doesn’t impinge its will on the government. What the writers of the American constitution were thinking was instead the takeover of the Church BY the state as Hitler did – thereby eliminating a strong opposition to his policies.
Do I really need to google up the pictures of Hitler and the Pope hanging out?
The Nazis played up old prejudices and the blood libel that came from years of religious tradition.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
I was just responding
That there were people, who were genuine people of faith who opposed Hitler. I’m not a member of what nucklord called “ultra powerful and wealthy” organizations and would argue that governments of man – whether they be local, national or religious are all flawed because they are all run by imperfect men.
I know you probably don’t want to hear this – but there is coming a time when all these tears shall be wiped away….
there is coming a time when all these tears shall be wiped away….
I know – I can’t wait for the Sharks to win the Cup!
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
However
What the writers of the American constitution were thinking was instead the takeover of the Church BY the state[…]
It also confirms that the two should be separate. Simply put, many of them were from a land that had torn itself to pieces repeatedly due explicitly to religious strife: as the Catholics and Protestants each came into power, they struck out against the other with vicious laws, arrests, siezure of property, and murders. The framers knew their history, and did not want it to happen again in this new nation they were forming.
History shows repeated examples of the horrors that can happen when a single religion also controls the state.
Or not.
You do know that sodomy includes sex between married, opposite-sexed folk too, right? I reiterate my previous point: there is nothing that homosexual people can do that hetrosexual haven’t done, are doing, and will do in the future.
No blow-jobs for you, skiboy95! Poor soul…
I am.
But you raise an interesting point. How many whammies is it if a girl sodomizes a man? Or is a girl sodomizes a guy? Or if a girl sodomizes a male sheep? Is that more of a whammy?
But he didn’t mention slaves again, so I’m assuming those are still ok right?
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
My interpretation
is that it’s okay to have slaves as long as you don’t discriminate based on race, gender, age, religion or sexual orientation. You should only buy slaves based on their ability to do menial degrading tasks and the effort it takes to strip them of their humanity.
(the worst part about this sarcasm is that I would bet everything I own that you could go back to pre and post civil war and find people who used Leviticus as moral justification for slavery.)
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
That absolutely happened.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
This is sadly very true. However, it’s also true that many of the early European and North American abolitionists came to their views partly because of their faith. There’s a lot of good to go along with all of the bad that has come from religion in its various forms.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed, but that’s just because there’s a lot of good and bad in people in general. Religion doesn’t make people evil but it also doesn’t make them good.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Well, I think that’s naive unless you mean “make” in some kind of absolute way; people do of course make their own decisions. But religious communities, beliefs, and rituals definitely influence both thought and behaviour. There are certain things I would never have dreamed of doing if it weren’t for my religious convictions. Looking back on it, I think some of those decisions ended up being very good and others very bad (and everything in between), though I’m convinced it’s been more good than bad.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
There’s a lot of good that comes from religion too. No arguments there.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
This crap is exactly what I meant when I spoke about not wanting to “defend my life.”
You go embrace Jesus. I’d rather embrace my wife and kiss her whenever a Penguin or one of her Red Wings scores a goal. Happily, the USA and Canada allow us both to make those choices for ourselves.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 8, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
That passage is actually more about opening the religion to all different kinds of people than it is about what kind of food you can eat. Whether or not the exact incident (Peter’s dream) is historical, the decision to allow people to become Christians without first become Jews was a major point of discussion in early Christianity. The group that won out came down with a “no” and that was one of the many early decisions that helped Christianity to grow (you don’t get as many adult converts when you tell them they need to be circumcised). It also meant they could eat bacon :)
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
precisely.
Ignorance is the cause of most, if not all, misconceptions about the Bible. See, I don’t agree with what “skiboy” did there. He used his limited knowledge of what he perceives to be the Bible’s message to condemn everyone here for expressing their opinion. THAT is plain wrong, and I don’t condone it, just like I don’t condone the things talked about in this thread; thankfully, I am not stupid enough to think that everyone must act according to what I think.
Pat Mc below has it dead-on; Love thy neighbour. This is how I live my life, and how I always intend to live it. I know that living according to Bible standards has given me happiness, a purpose in life, and it has also made me a much better person. Obviously, I can’t expect everyone I talk to to experience the same results, and I will not condemn anyone for choosing to believe in something that my beliefs don’t agree with.
Scott, I will send you an email later, when this heat subsides a bit. :)
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
My favorite part in all of this is how so much of the Bible is taken out of context.
Context, as always, is everything.
If I were to try to explain all those verses in the context of what they were written in, it would take me several days just to type out the words. The verses I quoted were used to support tolerance and not to condemn gays or any group of people for that matter. I have clearly stated that I don’t expect anyone else to view the Bible in the same light that I do, and I am only using them to back up why it is that I choose not to engage in sexual activity of any kind outside of marriage. I also condemned imposing anyone’s view of right or wrong on others, as the Bible clearly teaches that only God has the authority to decide that in the end.
The point you make about context, though, is a valid one. I wish I had the time to explain the context of those scriptures, as I know exactly how they all fit together, but that task is beyond my capabilities. All I’ve basically done is defend the Bible, as I believe the book itself isn’t in the wrong but the people that claim to follow it are. Most will disagree with me on that point as well, and I respect their opinions and point of view. All of my input here has been relevant, on-topic and respectful of others’ opinions, and to all of you who have taken the time to read my comments, thank you for doing so. It has been enjoyable to have a conversation with intelligent hockey fans. (Some would argue that the phrase “intelligent hockey fans” is paradoxical in its meaning, but I digress. :) )
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
I actually share the same views as you, and you wrote out my thoughts better than I ever could. The context was more to all those using Leviticus as condemnation of relegion and misquided.
As ever, it is not my place to judge, and people are free to do what they wish. I have no problem assocaiting with anyone, regardless of race, sexual orientation etc… Some of them are amazing people, and some have greatly shaped world history. I also don’t have to agree with the lifestyle, just as others do not have to agree with my lifestyle.
by DarrenV on Jul 8, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have no problem assocaiting with anyone, regardless of race, sexual orientation etc… Some of them are amazing people, and some have greatly shaped world history. I also don’t have to agree with the lifestyle, just as others do not have to agree with my lifestyle.
That’s basically what I’ve been meaning to say. Thanks. :)
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
Nucklord
You are far too sensible to be posting on the internet.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
embrace Jesus Christ and do as God commands.
Make me.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Men who think like you
crucified Christ.
Get behind me Pharisee.
Ha ha ha ha hahahahaha
That is the best ironic gag I have heard today. If, on the other hand, you are serious, then I need to ask you a question.
Skiboy95, you are (I assume) a man, made by God’s own hand. So am I (allegedly), so, what gives you the right to tell me how I live my life? You don’t have the right to tell anyone how to live, except maybe your kids.
I think that I have probably broken 8 or 9 of the commandments, so I guess I’m fucked then?
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
ha, and this is where it starts getting ugly
I love how folks pick and choose quotations out of the Bible to support their small minded beliefs. Having been brought up Catholic and having attended Catholic schools I can throw some Bible back at you pal if you want although I know it would be wasted. Jesus’ teachings were first and foremost about love. Thet were definitely not about small minded bigotry towards others.
Love. Love thy neighbour. Not love thy neighbour if they are white Christian and straight. Love them. Unconditionally.
And don’t bother telling me to repent pal. I’m not a practicing Catholic but I am a far better Christian than you could ever dream of being with your foolish bigotry.
by Pat Mc on Jul 8, 2010 10:23 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Love. Love thy neighbour. Not love thy neighbour if they are white Christian and straight. Love them. Unconditionally.
Good stuff Pat. I liked the above comment in particular what with Jesus not be either white or Christian or… uh… married.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 8, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Love your neighbour ? Or tolerate him ?
There are considerable misunderstandings of a number of the words and concepts that fly around in this debate. Does loving mean always tolerance and acceptance ? Is discrimination always a bad thing ? What should be protected from negative discrimination?
I love my kids and want the best for them. Does that mean I always tolerate their behavior? If my 4 year old talks back to his mother and throws a temper tantrum do I tolerate it ? If my 14 year old’s room is so messy you can’t see or find anything – and when I go to clean it for him I find drugs in his room am I just going to accept it ? When this debates starts, and people express an opinion that is different than the popular norm of "tolerance", then watch the name calling and intolerance fly.
Race, sex, age, size, religious heritage, are all things people get discriminated against for. That is wrong if it puts people at a disadvantage for things that they have no control over. Is all discrimination wrong in these cases ? Most of my friends are men – am I wrong for discriminating against women friends ? If I have a labour intensive job to hire for – do I hire the 20 year old or the 64 yr old ? Do I discriminate if I judge the 20 year old to be more suitable ?
What is interesting and most people miss this part of the debate, is that sexual preference is by nature of the definition a choice, and it is a behavior. Not unlike my preference to play hockey ahead of soccer, it is a behavioural choice. Does anyone need to be protected from society for their choices on their behavior ? Colin Powell, as chairman of the joint chiefs was pressured to relax the military stance on homosexuals and was given the guilt trip because he was black – a minority discriminated against in the past. He said it was totally different – the fact that he was black did not in one way affect his performance as a member of the military. Having homosexuals – sharing accommodation with people that they were potentially sexually attracted to placed undue pressure on people training to fight together and therby potential hazards. It wasn’t about who they were – it was how they behaved that potentially created the problem.
Once sexual behavior is enshrined as a protected right how far behind are other behaviors ? I am sorry I prefer to steal rather than work. Oops, sorry about those dishonest bank dealings – it’s the way I am wired – I tend to prefer to lie.
I will agree with you that some Christian circles ( and perhaps Muslim too) place too high of an emphasis on the area of sexual sins. In that way it just reflects the fixation in the non religious world of sex all the time. Given the attention shown, individual sexual satisfaction and gratification has become the new god. I think that sexual sins are no more problematic than other sins of selfishness, cheating, lying, stealing, coveting etc, but they are still behaviors that have results.
Why is homosexual behavior in vogue and Tiger Woods behavior sick ? Because he lied about it ? Aren’t homosexuals lying to themselves to think that women can be men and men women ? When do the polygamists get their protection from society?
At the end of the day – I applaud Brian Burke for following through on the commitment he made to his son. I have no doubt he loved his son, but please don’t enshrine him as the enlightened modern man because he tolerated his son’s homosexuality. I would have just as much right to talk to my son about why that behavior is destructive and wrong, as I would about him running with a drug dealers or pimps.
One can talk all day about different perspectives, but at the end of the day there has to be absolutes, there is truth. The law of gravity works, the sun rises in the east. Male and female were created ( by a divine Creator or not) for a reason. Denying that reason has consequences in natural or divine law no matter how polish it up.
What is interesting and most people miss this part of the debate, is that sexual preference is by nature of the definition a choice,
This is not a fact. The data is actually inconclusive (although the data suggests that homosexuality is actually naturally occurring in humans, there’s not enough of that data to say that it is a certainty)
He said it was totally different – the fact that he was black did not in one way affect his performance as a member of the military. Having homosexuals – sharing accommodation with people that they were potentially sexually attracted to placed undue pressure on people training to fight together and therby potential hazards. It wasn’t about who they were – it was how they behaved that potentially created the problem.
There is absolutely no indication that homosexuality has any effect on performance, so Powell was wrong, it is similar. Homosexual serve right now (just not openly) and there is no indication whatsoever that their performance is affected. There was a time when being black in a white regiment would affect everyone around him’s behavior. And as for the potential for sexual attraction causing a problem, women routinely serve with men (and vice versa) and once integrated, neither’s performance was affected in the slightest.
Why is homosexual behavior in vogue and Tiger Woods behavior sick ?
Because Tiger Woods entered into an agreement that he would be a faithful partner to his wife, and then broke that rather carelessly and often. Homosexuality is not a synonym for sexual promiscuity. If a homosexual were married and broke that bond as cavalierly as Tiger Woods it would be just as deplorable.
Aren’t homosexuals lying to themselves to think that women can be men and men women ?
I don’t think homosexuals believe that
When do the polygamists get their protection from society?
Polygamy inherently creates a relationship in which one member is superior to other members of the marriage. It goes against all people being equal, and equal within a relationship.
One can talk all day about different perspectives, but at the end of the day there has to be absolutes,
Why? Life isn’t absolutes, it’s a whole lot of gray.
The law of gravity works
funny you should mention that, because no one really knows how yet.
Denying that reason has consequences in natural or divine law no matter how polish it up.
That reason could be pure dumb luck.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 8, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
To prefer ( dictionary.com) :
to set or hold before or above other persons or things in estimation; like better; choose rather than: to prefer beef to chicken.
Ergo a preference is a choice.
Please note that tendencies and behaviours are not the same. One could be attracted to the same sex and not act upon it – the choice (preference) comes in choosing the behaviour. Same with any other behaviour, gambling, alcohol, watching soccer, hockey etc.
You think Powell was wrong in his assesment – but the fact remains there is a very distinct difference between an innocuous characterstic ( race) and a behaviour ( sexual preference) with respect to working with a group of people.
As far as Tiger goes, I could use the same argument of history that is used to justify homosexuality – that philandering husbands have always existed so therefore it is a vaild way of living. Do you think the ridiculous media attention to the story is about the deception or the sex ? If he had been lying to his sponsors and “cheating” on them do you think it would have had more than a day’s play in the media ?
Does polygamy value one over the other ? I assume you mean the man – yet I could argue the woman who only has to spend 10% of her time and effort meeting her husbands needs. The resposibilities are shared and if all are in agreement why do you judge ? How is it that the principle of “what I do in the privacy of my own home is none of your business” when it comes to homosexuality, yet somehow polygamists are fair game to judge ?
Not all of life is absolutes – but there must be some, otherwise you have chaos. Whether you understand gravity or not – it is true, you can’t argue it. If it was fickle and only decided to work on certain days we’ d have a situation. What is fundamental is that we are all here for a short time, and belief in a creator or not, we reproduce. To normalize something that goes against what is natural is, well not natural.
I walk on my feet as do most people; some people can walk on their hands and do it pretty darn well. What if there were a group of people who wanted solely to walk on their hands and were demanding that society not only tolerate them, but accomadate them? Some of those people might feel that they feel better walking on their hands – that they have found their true selves. Wouldn’t most people argue God ( or evolution) gave you feet – use them for what they are made (evolved) for. Why is it that use of the sexual organs for not what they were made for is a human rights issue
Tiger Woods broke a promise, lied and hurt his spouse.
Those are his crimes. Homosexual men and women can do that, and can be villified for those acts. Not for healthy sex acts that plenty of straights do as well.
Sure.
There isn’t a single act that two men or two women can perform that isn’t practiced by us breeders as well.
If you don’t believe me, there’s this wonderful tool called google. Take off the safe search and type Anal, Blowjob and Cunnilingus. Pretty sure you’ll find more girl on boy action than LGTB material.
Your example of people walking on their hands is asinine at best. If people wanted to walk around on their hands you are damn right we should tolerate it. I wouldn’t expect that people walking around on their hands all the time should have to encounter a group of people who want to beat them up just because they choose to walk on their hands.
As for accomodating, I’m not sure I follow… how do you have to accomodate gay people?
In the end, how they choose to live their life (and whether it’s a choice or not is irrelevant), doesn’t hurt you nor does it hurt anyone else, so why are you so damn worried about it?
And instead of worrying just about gay people, should you worry about people buying condoms as well? Are they using their sexual organs for what they were made for? How about men who go and get a vasectomy? Are they using their sexual organs for what they are made for? I guess birth control is a big no no for you as well!
Humans have long used their sexual organs for different reasons than they were intended for (reproduction). To single out gays for this is hypocrticial… unless you can say you’ve never had sex for the simple pleasure of it before.
It's supposed to asinine
First of all beating anyone up is not acceptable – please don’t imply that because I disagree that I advocate violence. Should people be prosecuted for beating up a homosexual man – absolutely – but it is no different than an Oiler fan being beaten by a Flame fan or vice versa.
The hand walking example was supposed to asinine for 2 reasons. Firstly, if you had said 100 years ago that men would be marrying men, and society as a whole would be embracing it, it would have been thought of as just as asinine. Secondly the example is to illustrate that blindly "accepting people for who they are" based on their behavior and asking for rights based on that is a slippery slope. Would you accomadate hand walkers by adding door handles at bottom of doors ?
Our societies fixation on things sexual has gone over the top, so it is not surprising that the first behavior to ask for protection under human rights legislation is sexual behavior. What sexual behaviours do you think will be next or are you sure that it stops here? What about other human behaviours that are "personal choice" should be unquestiongly tolerated and later granted rights?
What have we accommodated? We are allowing spousal benefits ( both as government and as employers) to both unmarried and homosexual couples. The reason these benefits were granted in the first place is because that being married and having children were things that benefited society as a whole – a societal quid pro quo. Secondly, it is no longer politically correct to question the physical and mental health of the homosexual community because we have accepted the lifestyle choice, but the fact remains that engaging in this behavior is less healthy.
Birth control vs homosexuality is a quantum leap of difference in intent and practice. Sexual pleasure is an added benefit to the reproductive process – to elevate the pleasure above the primary intent is the the basis of hedonism. The creator ( God or evolution) built certain things a certain way, arguing homosexual as normal because heterosexuals may engage in the same 1% of the time is a weak justification for it.
I know those who argue against a God are frustrated with those who do have faith, because what they perceive is a blind devotion to something without questioning it. Frankly, that’s what I see in the other direction when an idea reaches a certain level of political acceptance. People now believe that tolerance of everything is the only way to show respect, even if it means tolerating things that are not beneficial, for the individual or society. I will continue to question and challenge.
Our societies fixation on things sexual has gone over the top, so it is not surprising that the first behavior to ask for protection under human rights legislation is sexual behavior. What sexual behaviours do you think will be next or are you sure that it stops here? What about other human behaviours that are “personal choice” should be unquestiongly tolerated and later granted rights?
As long as it is 2 consensual adults, I really don’t care. It doesn’t impact me whatsoever.
What have we accommodated? We are allowing spousal benefits ( both as government and as employers) to both unmarried and homosexual couples. The reason these benefits were granted in the first place is because that being married and having children were things that benefited society as a whole – a societal quid pro quo.
Granting similar rights to similar people is not accomodating them. It’s giving them the same thing everyone else already has. It’s like we are saying that we accomodate black people by allowing them into the same school as white people. That’s not being accomodating.
And according to this, a marriage isn’t a benefit to society unless you are having children? What about straight couples who get married (commonlaw or actual marriage) but choose to never have kids? What is their benefit to society?
What about gay couples who do have children? Do they not benefit society (based on your definition)?
And again, how does this “accomodation” impact your life in anyway whatsoever?
Birth control vs homosexuality is a quantum leap of difference in intent and practice.
The intent is the exact same… sex for pleasure. Circumventing the reproduction aspects of sex and getting only the pleasure. And there is a lot more practicing birth control than there are practicing homosexuality.
Secondly, it is no longer politically correct to question the physical and mental health of the homosexual community because we have accepted the lifestyle choice, but the fact remains that engaging in this behavior is less healthy.
It’s as acceptable to question the mental and physical health of the homosexual community as it is to question the mental and physical health of the heterosexual community.
People now believe that tolerance of everything is the only way to show respect, even if it means tolerating things that are not beneficial, for the individual or society. I will continue to question and challenge.
You don’t think people being able to live without fear because of the choices they make isn’t beneficial to the individual or society as a whole? Have we not seen what happens when humans are intolerant of each other? Do we not have thousands of years and the blood of billions on our hands because certain groups of people can’t stand each other and don’t like how the other person chooses to live their life?
Seems to me that becoming more tolerant is far more beneficial to the individual and society than continuing a losing battle with what people choose to do behind close doors.
Just curious… how have homosexuals had a negative impact on your life? What have they done to reduce your quality of life or anyone you know?
If you can’t answer those simple questions, you don’t really have a leg to stand on.
It’s as acceptable to question the mental and physical health of the homosexual community as it is to question the mental and physical health of the heterosexual community.
Especially since it’s a “choice” for both.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 9, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Good work, Jibbs.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Introducing Gareth Thomas
Who is, according to Sports Illustrated, the only current professional athlete who is publicly gay.
Gareth Thomas (born 25 July 1974 in Sarn near Bridgend) is a Welsh professional rugby footballer who plays rugby league for the Crusaders of Europe’s Super League. He previously played rugby union for the Cardiff Blues his position is normally at fullback, wing or centre and most recently played as a fullback for Wales. On 26 May 2007, he surpassed Gareth Llewellyn as the most-capped Wales player with his 93rd appearance. A prolific try scorer at international level, Thomas is listed ninth in the world on the all-time Test try scoring list. During the 2007 Rugby World Cup, Thomas created sporting history when he become the first Welshman to win 100 international caps in rugby union.
That sound tough enough for pro sports? He was also married for four years before coming out to her, and later the rest of the world, last December. She has said she’s more proud of him now than ever before, and while they do miss each other, the divorce was a decision that was for the best for both of them.
When his team played against Castleford and the fans shouted epithets at him, that opposing team was fined by the Rugby League Commission because they didn’t remove the fans, just like fans screaming racist remarks at games. The Commission is taking the lead there, much like the NHL could in hockey.
Great post!
and very interesting comments. Took me ages to read them all. We’ve covered everything here I think – homosexuality, sex, racial issues, women’s issues and religion. Anything else we are missing? Global warming? :)
Very good article tho!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
LOL
I believe the correct terminology now is “climate change.” ;)
Chuck Norris has counted to infinity... twice.
Sean Z, regarding Andrew Alberts: "And of course credit goes to Alain Vigneault for sticking with this guy. When most of us wanted his nuts stapled to the bench."
Double Standards
I think Sports in general (at least contact sports that were primarily men-only games) have a deep rooted arc towards masculinity.
The homosexual culture (sterotypically speaking) seems to be slanted towards effeminite men and short haired, broad shouldered women. (i.e. the opposite of cultural gender norms).
Therefore, it is to be expected that there would be some friction between these two cultures, and I dont think any of us will live to see the day where the two are comfortably intertwined.
That being said, its not too much to ask that in this day and age, someone who is involved in both of those worlds (both the hockey and gay communities) would be able to be up front to both about all aspects of his life.
I ask one question though: Is there a double standard here? While sports may never embrace gays; I think that there may be some pressure from members of the gay community that Sports are rough, coarse, and not something a typical "gay man" would participate in? Anybody agree with that?
example
why are sports like field hockey (and maybe even women’s ice hockey) stereotyped as a locker room full of butch lesbians?
And why is every male cheerleader or gymnast or figure skater ridiculed for being “gay”. (although Johhny Weir doesnt help this argument any…)
Not sure, but I spent a weekend watching NCAA women’s lacrosse and promptly fell in love several times over.
And I spent another weekend watching my daughters dance recitals and the only thing I could think of is “Why the hell didn’t my parents put me in dance when I was 10?”
Apparantly I’ve matured I guess, because I’m pretty sure I would have ran away from home if my parents had actually put me in dance when I was 10.
Blues fan living in Chicago, here...
I’m obviously not a Blackhawks fan, but I gained so much respect for the organization when they allowed the Cup to appear in the Pride Parade. The other thing that happened in that Parade (and I don’t know if you folks outside of Chicago realize it) is that Ernie Banks, the legendary Hall of Famer from the Cubs, ALSO rode in the Parade. Actually, the Cubs have been one of the more progressive organizations courting the LGBT community, and to see Mr Banks, an elderly African American man, happily be part of the festivities was one of the most awesome things to occur in my memory of living in this town.
The other point I have is that I am the parent of 13 and 9 yr old boys. Their generation is so far ahead of us when it comes to acceptance of people of differing sexual orientations, one has the feeling that, in time, this will be much less of a big deal than it is now. I don’t always understand them, but I am very proud of our younger generation.
The next generation is what gives me hope. Whenever I hear people saying stupid stuff about gay marriage I just remember that the exact same arguments were made against interracial marriage barely fifty years ago. Time marches on, towards acceptance.
I'm just saying: I'm pretty sure this means deaf people are devil worshipers.
Battle of California
Well said.
Although I am black and my girlfriend is white and we still get stares/things muttered under people’s breath when we go out together/hold hands/etc..
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 9, 2010 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions
My girlfriend
gets fucking pissed when that happens, too. It doesn’t bother me as much because it has happened before in previous relationships and now I just don’t give a fuck what other people think.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 9, 2010 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Despite us
living in what I think is a fairly liberal city, Vancouver.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 9, 2010 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Happens to white folks, too
Walking with a friend of mine in Miami, the folks who smiled at her (she’s Tamil, which is accepted as black in most of the U.S.) scowled when we walked through the same neighbourhood the next day.
People is weird, I reckon.
Yes I agree with you on kids nowadays. I have boys as well, 19 and 13, and altho we live in the Bay Area, they grew up just taking people for who they are. If they are decent people, great. If they are jerks, they avoid them. It doesn’t matter what race, gender, orientation, hair color they have, you are just judged on who you are.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Subscribed.
Falconer rec’d this at Bird Watchers Anonymous and I agreed with all of this. I’m a fan of the Thrashers, but a fan of the human race above that. I’ve done some musical collabs with a MtF, and if some people had their way, that would be conceptualized as “I made dubstep with a person on the same level as a dogfucker”.
So, yeah, I’m liking this blog.
This article is absolutely necessary and long overdue. I’m sorry if this has been said somewhere else already but there’s a ton of very lengthy comments up there so I only skimmed them, but I feel like this has to start with the fans as well. Many of us post on other boards where the same kind of words may be used. When this happens I think we need to make a concerted effort to let it be known stuff like that wont be tolerated. Actually many of these blogs have rules and monitors that do a good job of keeping hatred off their pages. But we can also do much more outside of the internet. Wether your at a game, at a bar or even in your own house, if another fan is using these hateful terms I think it’s necessary for us to quell it in any way.
Again, thanks for writing this article, hopefully steps are taken and minds are expanded in any small or large way because of it.
Mancrushin' on Geoff since April 20
"Good night. Good hockey."
As been mentioned though, it’s not always about hatred.
Not every gay, race, sex, age, gender, etc… comment is necessarily said out of hatred. We’ve got a diverse group at work and we make stereotype jokes all the time to each other. I have gay friends and we make gay/straight stereotype jokes to each other all the time.
I do understand what you are saying, but not everyone does it to be hateful. Those who are intending it to be hateful do need to be handled, but I think it’s going well beyond if you make a an entire group immune. That’s never going to lead to tolerance, it’s just going to alienate people further.
Ranger Fan
Wonderful article, I have so much respect for Sopel and I am very proud that a hockey athlete decided to spend his day with the cup in such a powerful way.
In Hank we trust.
Homophobia in hockey
New to your site, and I can’t tell you how happy I am to have come across it. The caliber of the readership here is well beyond the norm, and I’m really appreciative of the level of discourse – thanks everyone. As per the subject at hand, it’s my feeling that it’s in the hands of the NHL executive to take the (long overdue) lead here. I don’t hold the players themselves responsible for the overriding culture of homophobia, but rather those who condone and perpetuate it. Not all athletes are the drones they are portrayed to be, but there is an immense amount of pressure to conform, and that’s what needs to be addressed. One less Don Cherry, and a lot more leadership, and this league could elevate itself in ways it never dreamed.
Cherry has alos spoken out in defense of gay marriage, with the caveat of “not in a church” for reasons of his faith. For an old boy like him to say that is pretty impressive.
Cherry is also an outrageous dresser who twice kissed Doug Gilmour on national TV. He’s old guard but not always old school (I hope that makes sense). I don’t see him as adversarial or unenlightened in this particular debate.
Then there was this …
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 10, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Cherry also trashed Kelly Hrudey in 93
in a pretty homophobic fashion. Can’t find the clip, but he was making fun of him for the head band with a lisp and a limp wrist. He’s no angel to the homosexual community, but he seems to have come around to the idea of acceptance.
Its great to know that their are players and others in the NHL trying to make a difference. I hope that one day all of it can be overcome. In my high school homosexuality doesn’t bother many of the students, besides the overly religious ones there. When I was a freshman one of the first people I met was a junior on varsity football team. He was the I guess you guys would say the star? But one of the first questions he asked me was “Do you think GLBT people play sports?” I took me back for a moment cause I have a cousin who is gay and he plays soccer, I thought this kid was going to be like “YOU DO? Whats wrong with you.” But I told him it didn’t bother me he laughed and told me good, cause he is gay. He was the guy in my school that made it known that being gay doesn’t actually matter and it doesnt make the person any different from before you knew they were. This artcile made me happy in a way. I am very glad it was posted. But it still saddens me that their is still so much discrimination in sports, hell anywhere. I hope things can change one day.
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