The Value Of An NHL Goon
For some unfathomable reason, NHL general managers have seen fit to go gaga for goons this off-season. It's a position with only thirty job openings worldwide and about 250 applicants, yet general managers are treating goons like a commodity in short supply.
The Flyers started the crazy by signing Jody Shelley to a three-year $1.1 million per year deal in the first three hours of free agency. Apparently, Riley Cote, Darroll Powe and Dan Carcillo weren't enough - it was the fourth fighter that was going to get Philadelphia over the hump. Not to be outdone by their rivals, the Rangers stepped up to the plate. Glen Sather's annual off-season crazy centered around Derek Boogaard. Boogaard, the man that costs the Wild about two points per year in the standings, despite playing only five minutes per night, was given an insane four-year contract worth $1.65 million annually.
The cap-stressed Blackhawks thought that defenseman John Scott, a pair of knuckles that dresses every once in awhile, was a worthwhile investment, so Stan Bowman signed him... to a two-year contract, because one year wouldn't have been enough for a goon to sign a guaranteed contract. Darryl Sutter, not one to be outdone when it comes to poor decisions, threw two years at Raitis Ivanans, the worst player in the league at giving away power plays, because one year just wasn't enough for a player of his ilk. Not content with just one goon to make the Flames a three line team, Sutter also signed Tim Jackman... to a two-year deal.
Steve Tambellini jumped into the fray and brought back Steve MacIntyre, a nice guy that punches hard but isn't much of a hockey player. Tambellini gave MacIntyre his first-ever one-way contract, and though he was well-liked by the Oilers during his previous stint here, there is a reason that this was his first one-way contract.
Yesterday, George McPhee thought enough of D.J. King to pull off the always-rare sign-and-trade with the Blues, sending away middling prospect Stefan Della Rovere. But at least the Capitals have that very difficult-to-fill goon position taken care of for... two years.
Why the rest of the league followed and escalated the stupidity arms race started by the Flyers and Rangers is a mystery. Is there some hidden value to goons that we aren't aware of? After the jump, I look at the value that a goon brings to the bottom line in the NHL.
To figure out the value of a goon, I used Desjardins' BehindTheNet.ca to average the time on ice and goals for / goals against for every goon in the league over the last three seasons. The average goon plays 6.9 minutes per game and 51 games per year. The average goal differential per 82 games is -5.55.
The best goon is George Parros at +15 in 1205 minutes of ice time. The worst is our good friend Raitis Ivanans at -26 in 1317 minutes of ice time.
One other aspect of the game that a goon has an influence over is penalties taken and penalties drawn. A "good" goon will minimize his impact when not fighting, while a "bad" goon will take unnecessary minor penalties and put his team on the penalty kill.
Desjardins has looked at penalty differential a couple of times, focusing mainly on the skill of drawing penalties. He's found that Dustin Brown is the best regular player in the league at drawing penalties and Patrick Kaleta has a talent for drawing penalties that contributes to a not-insignificant number of wins for the Sabres. I looked at the flip side of that - the worst players in the NHL at taking penalties.
The average NHL goon has a penalty differential of -6.43 per 82 games. As Desjardins showed in the linked posts, a minor penalty is worth about .2 goals based on the value of the power play. Using that information, we can see that the average NHL goon gives up 1.28 goals per season based on penalty differential alone.
Jared Boll led the way with a differential of +16 in 1727 minutes of ice time, though Darcy Hordichuk had a differential of +15 in 964 minutes of ice time. The worst is our good friend Raitis Ivanans at -48 in 1317 minutes of ice time, or approximately -3.74 goals per season.
Ivanans has been on the wrong end of 29 goals in the last three seasons. As Tyler at MC79hockey has shown, a differential of just shy of six goals is approximately one win or loss per year, so Ivanans has cost the Kings five wins in the last three years. Tim Jackman has been on the wrong end of 25 goals over that same time period, and cost the Islanders four wins.
Using these numbers, the average NHL goon is responsible for -6.83 goals per season, or one loss per year, yet this summer general managers have become enamored with them.
I'm not taking other factors like qualcomp (goons are always in the bottom three for each team) or WOWY into account, but in a straightforward analysis, goons are not a worthwhile investment. There are players like George Parros and Zack Stortini that can hold their own against other fourth lines, but the rest of the "true goons" list is plastered with nothing but minuses.
By the way, a big thank you to the Calgary Flames for signing Raitis Ivanans; he should be a great help to the rest of the division next season.
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Once again an interesting analysis flawed by missing the key point: it is well known that a goon makes everyone on the team feel two inches taller. What you need to do, therefore, is find a way to incorporate that virtual extra height into other micro-stats – i.e. what is the effect of imagining you are two inches taller on faceoff percentage, corsi, GA/60, etc. Only when you find a way to factor in this team-wide collective delusion into the stats can you provide an adequate value for a goon.
(FYI: My initial estimates put it at $1.65m for four years, although I guess we’d have to subtract the costs of buying new jerseys and other equipment for the entire team that is two-inches bigger)
If this were 1988, I’d agree with you, but I’m just not convinced the goon has that kind of impact anymore with the instigator rule. If the guy won’t agree to go, you’ve got to take a penalty.
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Doogie – I’m addicted to dry British sarcasm. My post was a poor attempt at humour. I don’t believe in the value of a goon, although I did like the film ‘The Goonies’ when I was a kid. I don’t know if that counts.
I’ve learned my lesson – I knew it was a joke as soon as I looked at the name underneath the post.
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As you can see, it was early in the morning. ;)
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The Caps tried that last year – they went without the enforcer. Their star player missed six games with a shoulder injury after an incident that likely would not have happened if an enforcer had been on the bench.
I see what you’re getting at, and it’s true as far as it goes. But, there’s an intangible there that a goon can provide, and that is heart and soul and energy, which is something the Capitals are short on. When a guy goes to war for you, you can’t help but step up your game. The stakes become higher. There was an incident last year in which one of their players got one-shotted in a dirty play. The Caps responded by taking that 9 minute PP they were handed and proceeding to torch the other team for three goals on that PP and four more later. My thought is that it’s that energy, that solidarity, that the Caps were looking for in this trade.
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This is going to quickly devolve into the type of type of argument that gets completely away from the statistical evidence and into the intangible values, but I really can’t buy the belief that a goon prevents injuries. There is simply no way anyone can prove that a goon being on a team prevents the other team from taking “liberties” with star players – because it simply is not true. The people who take runs at other players simply dont have any fear of being punched afterwards.
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Especially when they need a permission slip signed in triplicate to drop the gloves. You can’t come off the bench and fuck a guy up and just get five anymore. That matters.
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Their star player missed six games with a shoulder injury after an incident that likely would not have happened if an enforcer had been on the bench.
So if I understand what you are saying – “stars” will not be forced to absorb, nor will they suffer injuries from hits if there is a goon sitting on the bench?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
No, it doesn’t stop the professional agitators. What it does mean is that the star players don’t have to fight like they did last year. (Last year, they did on the Caps.)
The problem I see with this post is that it’s lumping all of these trades and signings into the same category with no knowledge of the teams involved. I completely agree that the signings of Shelley and Boogaard were just unnecessary. The Rags didn’t need another enforcer, and the Flyers DEFINITELY didn’t – and why is Holmgren tearing apart a team that went to the Final without addressing their one real need?
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The Caps’ situation is a little different, and yes, it does go back to intangibles. The Caps had stats out the wazoo, but it didn’t get them anywhere when it counted. King is half the price of Boogaard and is young and can forecheck. This sort of energy, tough-to-play-against line presence was something the Caps were missing last year among all the skill players. Della Rovere wasn’t going to play for the Caps anytime soon if ever, and they’re not hurting under the cap. This is a trade that doesn’t hurt them any – if it works out, it works out, and if it’s Nacho City, that’s fine too, the Caps had a similar guy last year.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
No, it doesn’t stop the professional agitators. What it does mean is that the star players don’t have to fight like they did last year. (Last year, they did on the Caps.)
This is not correct.
These are the fighting majors handed out last year for the Caps (source:HockeyFights.com)
Matt Bradley -5
John Erskine -4
Jason Chimera – 3
Chris Clark – 3
Knuble, Lang, Morrison, Steckel, Walker – 1 each
Not a first liner or star amongst them.
Wow, that’s not a lot of fights. Comping your list above to the list of major penalties assessed the Caps last year I see that the biggest star on the team had no fewer than 3 of the “other” 4 majors and 3 of the team’s 5 game misconducts, presumably 5 and a game each time for his assorted dirty checks. Caps seem to have done well in limiting the fallout from those hits, although OV being gone from the game each time has likely served to limit the need for retribution. Still I find it surprising that with that guy running around like that, that there hasn’t been more rough stuff in the aftermath.
Also the club clearly missed the fistic prowess of Alex Semin this past season. ;)
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 29, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Their stats would’ve done them just fine if Halak hadn’t had a Jesus moment for a game or three there.
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Their star player missed six games with a shoulder injury after an incident that likely would not have happened if an enforcer had been on the bench.
I see a difference between an “enforcer” and a “goon”. Enforcers stand up for their teammates and try to reduce cheap shots by challenging the other team’s physical players; goons are the ones out there running guys from behind, throwing knees and elbows, and generally getting away with it because they can fight better than almost anyone else. Every time I remember actually noticing Boogaard in a game it wasn’t because he was standing up to someone to protect Gaborik et al, it was because he just crushed somebody with a borderline (or worse) hit. Or missed an easy check because he can’t skate and went for an elbow anyways.
The fine line might be the difference in guys like Parros and Stortini and guys like Boogaard and McGrattan.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
So there is a fine line between Parros/Stortini and Boogaard/McGrattan, but there is a bigger line between Parros/Stortini and say a Carcillo/Downie.
The biggest difference is the latter can play on the second and third line: they bring offense while being a complete a$$hole to the first and second liners of the other team (because they are on the ice with them: god forbid we play Zorg a shift against the first line of another team). While these players might not have the size of the fourth line ‘enforcer’, these ‘pest’ can handle themselves against the middle weights.
Instead of having a Zorg and a SMac, I’d rather the Oilers go with a Zorg-Fraser-Jones fourth line and get a pest for the third/second line. While Caricillo or Downie might not be available for a decent price (a prospect like Chorney and a 4th round pcik), could Brule add this dimension to his game or is it something you have to born with?
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Carcillo / Downie weren’t included in this look at “goons” because they can actually play the game.
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Only when you find a way to factor in this team-wide collective delusion into the stats can you provide an adequate value for a goon.
This really is the only argument in support of the “goon” (and to a slightly lesser extent fighting in general), and, since I am totally anti-fighting in hockey, I don’t buy this. Sure, once in a while a team may get a lift when a goon goes out and pounds another goon – but even then I have yet see a someone make a causation link between having a goon on the team and improved team play.
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If both teams are pumped by a fight, the difference is pretty hard to measure. It’s not like a video game, where one team is pumped by a win and the other is devastated by a fight loss. Most teams appreciate the effort, win or lose. Therefore, no benefit to one team over the other.
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Someone over at PPP looked at this for Colton Orr fights—if I recall there was no appreciable impact of an Orr fight. Win or lose, it didn’t noticeably boost the team. In fact, IIRC, their results (amazingly) were worse after an Orr fight than otherwise.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 29, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey Derek if you compare the goal differential of a goon to an average 4th liner, are the results much different? Because most teams 4th lines are 4th line for a reason and a goon playing only 6 min/game and 51 games reflects that.
Since we are using Washington, I took the 3 worst Qual Team forwards and their goal differential (with 40 GP) (source:BTN)
Steckel = +6
Bradley= +4
Walker= -3
When I see Steckel there I doubt QualTeam is the best indicator or 4th liner but even the Oilers worst 3 qualteam averaged out to the same (-6) as a goon.
Pisani -16
Pouliot -4
Stone 2
And our only true 4th liner, Stortini, came out as one of the few plus/minus players on the Oilers. Funny that all 3 of our worst QualTeam will be gone next year.
I still think a good coach will keep reduce the time that a goon plays in situations that matter. A lot of their ice time is likely early in the game or when the team is up 2 or down 2 late. But there is something do this. Good stuff as usual fellas!
Hey Derek if you compare the goal differential of a goon to an average 4th liner, are the results much different? Because most teams 4th lines are 4th line for a reason and a goon playing only 6 min/game and 51 games reflects that.
Good question. My next project looks at the impact that 4th liners have on a team, but also the impact that goons have on those fourth liners with a WOWY look.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Shelley
although I agree that the Jody Shelley signing, particularly the dollar value, is crazy…I don’t think you can include Darroll Powe as a figher or a goon. He’s neither.
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I agree. And while Laperriere isn’t a goon, he’s certainly a fighter.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 29, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
The funny thing with Sutter is: he signs a goon almost every season, the guy ends up being either a detriment or a non-factor….and then he does it all over again the next summer. It really is quite baffling. As is his predilection for really terrible goons (in terms of actual hockey skills).
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The funnier thing is you can replace the word “Sutter” with “Sather,” and your statement still holds true.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 29, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
The two are becoming nearly indistinguishable. Heck, the two clubs have pretty similar records since the lock-out if I’m not mistaken.
by Kent Wilson on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Sutter’s uglier.
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 29, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And is short a few Stanley Cup rings.
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Although I completely agree with your overall sentiment (i.e. goons suck), I do think you’re overstating their impact on team performance. Firstly, I think that 0.2 GD per penalty is an aggressive figure that doesn’t leave much room for actual power play skill, but I’ll leave that aside for now. But:
The average goon plays 6.9 minutes per game and 51 games per year… The average NHL goon has a penalty differential of -6.43 per 82 games. As Desjardins showed in the linked posts, a minor penalty is worth about .2 goals based on the value of the power play. Using that information, we can see that the average NHL goon gives up 1.28 goals per season based on penalty differential alone.
If the average goon only plays 51 games in a season, then the average impact is only 0.80 goals per season. I think it’s important to remember that goons don’t generally play every night, thereby minimizing their opportunity to be a drag on the team. Further, a greater percentage of their ice time (and goals against) will be “low leverage” minutes when a goal for or against matters less. That’s awfully difficult to factor in to the analysis, but it’s another thing that will push their impact on standings points and wins down, even if it doesn’t show up in goal differential.
The average goon plays 6.9 minutes per game and 51 games per year. The average goal differential per 82 games is -5.55… the average NHL goon gives up 1.28 goals per season based on penalty differential… Using these numbers, the average NHL goon is responsible for -6.83 goals per season
Again, the overall number of -6.83 goals per season is predicated on the goon playing in all 82 games which is not the case for the average NHL goon. Further, attributing all of the responsibility for the -5.55 goal differential to any one player and none of it to other players on the ice would seem to overstate the impact of that individual. Even if we say that, on average, half of the responsibility for each surplus goal against should be attributed to the goon, the impact lessens quite a bit. Over 51 games, the impact would be -1.86 goals.
Adding the penalty number and goal differential number (and both still strike me as aggressive valuations), the average goon only costs his club 2.66 goals versus average performance over the course of a season. The actual figure is probably a little bit less than that. Again, I agree with the overall premise that playing goons is a very bad idea, but as a group, they don’t have the kind of drag on team performance that you seem to suggest, mostly because they just don’t play very much.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 29, 2010 12:36 PM PDT reply actions
What Scott says here is likely true – Goons don’t really play all that much……which still renders contracts like Boogaard and Shelley ridiculous.
I wonder what kind of economic argument can be made for goons. “Entertainment value” and all that.
Note: I am asking the question, not making the argument.
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 29, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably a pretty decent one if we’re talking about an average goon making the minimum wage. Once they’re getting paid though, it seems a lot less likely.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 30, 2010 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions
My problem with that line of thinking is that there are goons that do play full seasons and have a really negative impact on their teams – Ivanans and Orr, for example.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
But that’s why I’m saying that your evaluation of the average impact is too large. It’s definitely true that some goons have a larger impact than what I presented, but some also have a smaller one. Ivanans, as you’ve shown, has probably the largest negative impact among the group, so he’s not representative of what’s typical.
by Scott Reynolds on Jul 30, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

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