Who Is The Best Player Available?
Every time the draft comes around most fans cry out for their team to take the "Best Player Available" when it comes time to make a selection. This is, I suppose, a solid starting point but it's also terribly vague. After all, what criteria establishes which guy is the best? It's my view that the whole point of drafting is to select players that you can't otherwise obtain cheaply, which means maximizing your chances at picking really good players and recognizing that fourth line forwards, bottom pairing defenders and back-up goalies are better than nothing, but ultimately pretty worthless draft picks since they're a dime a dozen in free agency. In other words, you don't try to draft what you can buy at the (Million) Dollar Store.
Having said that, I think NHL teams do a generally good job of valuing talent, but there are significant gaps that can be exploited to come up with a better draft list. I decided to take a look at the drafts from 1997 to 2005 and look at what inefficiencies might exist based on position (i.e. forward, defender and goalie). Where do you find the top forwards? What about top defenders and goalies? After the jump, I'll set some criteria and take a stab at answering these questions.
So what constitutes a "top" forward in the NHL in terms of drafting? In my view, it's those forwards that are expensive and the most expensive players tend to be those players that produce consistent offence. Any forward with the "checker" label likely isn't going to be making much money and the type is frequently available for a song in free agency. It's obviously better to draft a Dominic Moore than a total bust but he's not the kind of player that should be particularly difficult to replace via free agency. We know that because he sign him sign on the cheap almost every year. As such, I've set the criteria for a "successful pick" in these drafts as any player who has played a minimum of 200 NHL games and has scored a minimum of 0.5 points per game.Defenders are a bit more complicated. The elite defensive defenders make a lot of scratch so it doesn't seem like points is the best measure of ability especially since the power-play specialist type (think Marc-Andre Bergeron) will rack up points but isn't all that expensive to replace. That said, I think a minimum points requirement is necessary; a player with no offence is surely somewhat detrimental. Thus, a 0.15 points per game minimum standard will be used to accompany the 200 GP threshold. In addition, I've decided to use a TOI minimum of 18:30 per game which should eliminate the guys who are just power play specialists.
What of goaltenders? Honestly, unless you get a clear starter who can perform at a high level, there's nothing there that you couldn't buy cheap. As such, the goaltender must have achieved an above average save percentage (minimum .910 over the career) and must have been the starting goaltender for at least two seasons (min. 40 games played per season). These goalies (sometimes) have value. Anything less than that, not so much.
The charts that follow will use this criteria to evaluate how each position does at various points in the draft from 1997 to 2005. In order to make things more fair for the more recent draftees, the games played requirement is cut in half (100 GP for forwards and defenders and one season of 40 GP for a goalie) for all of the players drafted in 2004 and 2005. Despite all of this, I'll be the first to admit that the criteria misses some pretty good hockey players. In my opinion, more good forwards are left out than players at any other position but I did need to set the criteria somewhere and, overall, I'm quite satisfied that the players who are in are good players with very few exceptions:
I like these charts because they paint an interesting picture and, in my opinion, don't suggest that there's only one absolutely right way to go at the draft. The most obvious thing to they do suggest is that talent disappears quickly. Scouts are generally pretty good at their jobs and so by the time we're down to the 26th pick, we're already talking about longshots. As such, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to trade down unless you're trading your fifth rounder for a sixth and seventh. Based on the numbers, you would need to get a crazy offer to justify trading out of the top part of the draft. Now, that changes if your scouts have a very different opinion than the consensus (think Thomas Hickey) but sometimes, that divergence should be a tell that your scouts don't really know what they're doing (think Thomas Hickey).
For the goalies, I think this data makes it pretty clear that drafting goalies in the top 100 is a fool's errand unless you've got a guy pegged to go in the top seven and honestly believe he's a generational talent. And even then, I'd be pretty nervous. Otherwise, the opportunity cost is far too great. Forwards and defenders become impact players far more frequently in the early part of the draft and disappear towards the end. It honestly seems to me like teams would be better off if they focused on procuring undrafted free agents to fill their prospect needs at the goaltender position unless the aforementioned generational talent shows up in the draft but it also seems to me to be quite acceptable to use picks outside the top one hundred on goalies. If we combine the last two rows, defenders have a success rate of 5.4%, goalies 4.1% and forwards 2.8% so goalies do much better relative to their peers in this part of the draft.
That was the easy part. The rest of the data is more difficult. Almost all of the good forward talent goes early and your chances of picking up an impact forward outside the first hundred picks is very small, much worse than the chances of getting a top defender. However, defenders work out better almost all of the time! So what ought to be done? Firstly, I think it's important not to be too dogmatic at this point (like I was above with the goalies). If drafting the "Best Player Available" means drafting the player most likely to become an impact NHLer, well then teams should be pushing defenders up their lists all the time. This does not mean always picking defencemen. It just means that quite often two (or three or four etc.) players are very close on a team's list. If your team's philosophy is indeed, "the best player is the player who's most likely to have an impact in the NHL" then when those "it's close" moments arise, you push the defender up. So, for the Senators last season, that may have meant selecting Jared Cowen 9th overall instead of Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson.
That strategy seems perfectly good, but it isn't the way I would roll. In fact, at times, I would do the opposite. In the first three picks of the draft, I would have an extreme bias toward forwards. There aren't too many sure things at forward, but a top three pick is pretty close. After that, things get dicey. So, for me, if it's close, it goes to the forward to the point that Matt Duchene would have been my pick over Victor Hedman if I were in Tampa Bay's shoes last year but not to the point that I would have taken Evander Kane if the choice was between Hedman and Kane at three. After creating my top three, I would then revert to a bias toward defenders as the draft moves through the top twenty-five. If it's close, give the edge to the defender. The difference is just too much at that point in the draft. For the rest of the top one hundred, my bias would again veer toward drafting forwards, the thinking being that although I have a slightly better chance at a good defender, I have a much better chance at good defenders late than I do forwards and that good forwards are rare, so it's worth taking the chance. For the rest of the draft it's back to a bias toward defenders (and this time a strong one), while valuing goalies equally to defenders. Realistically, I'm probably going to be picking a lot of goalies and defencemen at this point in the draft. The point is, my list is malleable instead of rigid and will change based on where I'm drafting. The key assumption is that my group of scouts isn't way smarter than everybody else in the NHL which is probably a good assumption for most if not all NHL teams. Thus, by making sure that my biases are intentional, I can hopefully exploit the (less intentional?) biases of the scouts on other teams, i.e. that way too many forwards get drafted relative to defenders. In doing so, I believe I have a much better chance at drafting the real best player available.
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The poll is actually much closer than I would have guessed.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m amazed. It’s like Dale Tallon has 50 votes.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
But Fleury won the Stanley Cup ! ! ! 1 ! ! eleven ! ! 1
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
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I’m guessing someone is moving to wing. Likely Malkin.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
If they draft EStaal in ‘03, do they suck so hard in ’04 that they get the #2 pick? I’ve read a lot of time travel fiction and it always gets messy.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
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by Bruce McCurdy on Jun 9, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Eric Staal in 03-04 was a marginal NHLer. I think they still suck enough to get Malkin. It’s whether they suck enough in 05-06 to get Jordan that is probably the more relevant question (and Shero and Therrien I suppose).
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I think the clear answer here is that we have no clue, but I like Bruce Peter’s point that it’s 2005-06 where they really would have had “problems” sucking. That said, the hypothetical is more illustrative throwaway than serious point.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve read a lot of time travel fiction and it always gets messy.
Made my night, this.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
As such, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to trade down unless you’re trading your fifth rounder for a sixth and seventh.
This does not mean always picking defencemen.
If someone could please pass this on to the Flames, that would be awesome.
With the kind of lines they could construct with Staal either on Crosby’s wing or centering another strong EV units… it’s scary to think about. The Pens are a fairly decent team right now, imagine what they could be like with a killer like Staal feeding off of Crosby’s ripple effect.
Conklin’s career SV% is strange, I haven’t looked into it in great detail but at first blush it kinda screams “hasn’t played on the PK much”. That or “underappreciated” but in hockey, underappreciated often translates directly into overrated.
Conklin’s career SV% is strange, I haven’t looked into it in great detail but at first blush it kinda screams "hasn’t played on the PK much".
Great find R O. I just did some quick checks at NHL.com, and in the last three years, in terms of shots against for goalies on the penalty kill, Conklin was 40th, 33rd, and 37th.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
As a percentage of his overall shots? ‘Cause that’s what matters.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure what the percentage is to overall shots (I don’t know of any site that reports that data). I can’t speak for R O, but I think these numbers also matter because they show he hasn’t played very much on the pk relative to other goalies in the league. Since we know that a goalie’s save percentage drops a good bit when killing penalties, it’s doesn’t make much sense to compare him to other goalies that have played 3, 4, or 5 times as much while on the penalty kill.
I see the Staal and Kunitz comparison but I don’t see the Conklin and Fleury comparison. Conklin has started more than 30 games only 3 times in the last nine seasons while Fleury has done it five times in the last five seasons. Conklin’s shots against the last nine seasons are 4,524 while Fleury’s over the last three seasons are 6,485. Conklin hasn’t established any record as a long-term starter in the league, and we don’t know what he’ll give you starting 65-70 games a season for multiple seasons.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Scott’s right, it’s % of PK shots relative to total shots that matter.
In any case it’s neither here or there. The real thing is that even if Conklin isn’t as good as his total SV% makes him seem, there’s no way that a significant talent disparity exists between him and Fleury. Fleury’s been awful.
There is a huge disparity between Kunitz and Eric Staal though.
by R O on Jun 9, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Fleury’s been awful.
I think he’s been average, not awful. His .910 SV% over the last three regular seasons is right in line with the league average. He was bad this year but he’s had his bright spots, and this doesn’t take into account the porous defense he had in front of him this year and three years ago.
I think the ultimate point is that goalies in the NHL are much closer together in terms of skill than forwards. Though we won’t be able to truly answer the poll question for about 10 more years. If Fleury can improve and become a more dominating presence than he has been thus far, he’ll be much more valuable in the long-run than a journeyman like Conklin.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Yes, perhaps awful was too strong.
Still he owns his SV% all the way. Hard to say that the defense has had anything to do with it when it’s been demonstrated that Dmen (and skaters in general) don’t really have a huge impact on SV% behind.
by R O on Jun 9, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
How about “awful for a #1 overall pick”?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Or “awful for a guy making his salary”?
by The '67 Sound on Jun 10, 2010 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions
it’s been demonstrated that Dmen (and skaters in general) don’t really have a huge impact on SV% behind.
I’ve been trying to read up on shot quality and related stuff lately. Do you have a link or story that discussed this? I’m not trying to insinuate you’re lying either, I’d just like to get more well-versed in this topic.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
http://vhockey.blogspot.com/2010/05/forest-v-trees.html
http://vhockey.blogspot.com/2009/07/shot-quality-fantasy.html
by R O on Jun 9, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
The real thing is that even if Conklin isn’t as good as his total SV% makes him seem, there’s no way that a significant talent disparity exists between him and Fleury.
This was pretty much the entire point of the little thought experiment.. The talent disparity between skaters is much wider than the talent disparity between goalies. The only reason I picked Conklin is (a) he was a Penugin at one point, (b) he was an Oiler at one point and © he’s cheap.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Great analysis! Could you perhaps do the exact same thing regarding the nationalities of the players? My guess would be that the scouts don’t know the European prospects as well as the North American guys and thus make more bad estimations when it comes to Europeans. Some Euopeans could be overrated and therefore not do as well as one would expect at draft day. I don’t think the top-5 picks would be affected, but going through the past few drafts I get the feeling that too many Europeans picked between #5 and #20 (or even 5-30, 5-50) don’t live up to the expectations and teams should be more careful picking Europeans in these areas. But as said, that’s just a feeling and it would be great to get a closer look at that.
Yeah, I’ll be doing a “so where are these good picks coming from?” post in the reasonably near future.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
you’re on a bit of a draft jag, eh? have you been using this thing at all?
by Passive Voice on Jun 9, 2010 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I used it a bunch last year but now it’s a year out of date so I don’t find it nearly as useful. If I’ve somehow missed that Daoust has updated it, please let me know!
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I do like the list as it is pretty good indicator of where you find building block players. But question some of the logic if Lehtonen is a “top” player, but Fleury is not. If I am starting my team I will take a game 7 Stanley Cup winner over an injury riddled netminder anytime of the week. That being said I think most people would agree that taking a goalie number one wasn’t the right choice. Staal and Heatley would have been better choices.
The Penguins should have taken senior Staal and passed on junior Staal for Toews. How sick would that team be? Crosby – Malkin – Toews
Fleury doesn’t qualify right now based on a career save percentage under .910. I understand the concerns around Lehtonen’s injury history which is one thing not specifically taken into consideration in my analysis but he has been an above-average puck-stopper when healthy and, unlike Fleury, is above .910 in more than half of his individual seasons. Fleury may yet turn out but so far he doesn’t have the results of an above-average netminder. The one big year plus the Cup win kind of hides that which is odd since he wasn’t even all that good in the post-season the year that they won. If you still feel like either Fleury should be in or Lehtonen out, how would you suggest altering the criteria?
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Just my two cents, but I think the criteria is good. Fleury would have made the cutoff if you eliminate the first two years he played. Those were the “dark ages” for penguins fan when the team went 45-93-22. No goalie would survive in the chaos that was the team back then. After minimal discipline and quality were added, Fleury’s been right at the .910 SV% mark the last four regular seasons.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Yeah, Fleury does have a much better save percentage than his backups in 2005-06, so there may be something to that, though the other goalies getting time were Sebastien Caron and Jocelyn Thibault, so it’s not like the comparison is with a bunch of all-stars.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Whenever I start evaluating which goalies I like or dislike during free agency. I break it out into SV% per game and I categorize them in the 3 categories; excellent (.925 SV% or higher), Quality (.900 – 924) or shitty.
But you can’t measure just on SV% between 86-87 to 89-90 Reggie Lemelin had a greater SV% than Grant Fuhr. So obviously Lemelin was the better goalie right?
You need to Win! I use the following formula to evaluate goalies.
925 SV% & a Win – 5 Points
925 SV% & a loss – 4 Points
900 – 924 SV% & a win – 3 Points
900 – 924 SV% & a win – 2 points
Under 900 SV% and a win – 1 point
Under 900 SV% and a loss – 0 Points
The highest points per game average goalie is the one I like. But is very tough to do in a general poll of draft picks between multiple years.
2.5 – 3.0 is starting goalie calibre.
3+ – All-Star Calibre
Yeah, you probably won’t like this but I think measuring goalies based on wins is goofy. I agree there’s more to goalie evaluation than straight-up save percentage, but “how good his team is” isn’t where I go to fill out the analysis.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
coughVokounLundqvistcough…
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
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by red army line on Jun 10, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Why in god’s name would you include wins in any objective measure of a goaltender?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
You are right Reggie Lemelin was way better than Grant Fuhr, in the 80’s. The stats back it up right?
This is ridiculous. Derek didn’t even imply this. He didn’t say that save percentage is the only measure, only that wins are a poor one for judging individual performance. Derek could easily agree that Fuhr was the better goalie and believe that judging goaltenders on team wins is foolish. Please refrain from putting words in other people’s mouths.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Further, in attempt to actually give some kind of reason behind why I don’t like goalie wins as an individual stat, I just think that it’s too team-oriented. Now hockey is a team game and, to some degree, every statistic is a team statistic. But some are moreso than others and team wins are certainly far to one side. As such, it seems dangerous to place a goodly portion of one’s evaluation on how often a team wins with a particular goaltender. I think this post by the Contrarian Goaltender does a good job of communicating why I believe “wins” as a statistic for individual goalie performance is unhelpful unless you adjust for team factors.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 9, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh fun anecdotes!
You are right Evgeni Nabokov was way better than Tomas Vokoun, this year. The stats back it up right?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
My issue with this is that you have a goaltender who posts a .925 sv% in 5 games and a .888 sv% in 5 games (and for arguments sake going 5-5) as being eqivilant to a goaltender who puts up a .920 sv% in 10 games (again going 5-5).
I’ll tell you which goalie I’d rather have every time by a long shot, and it’s not the first one.
And I agree with everyone else, using wins (and rating them with a full point of value) completely skews everything. If I stop 9 shots out of 10 and you stop 24 out of 26, I’ve won 2-1 and according to your metric, we both get 2 points.
This means we are equal as goaltenders?
I just don’t agree that wins don’t matter, but I also agree with Scott that wins should be weighted on how good the team behind him is. I think the best way to rank a goalie would be on scoring chance save percentage.
As for Nabokov versus Vokoun. Personally, I think both are quality starters but not elite. Vokoun is probably a bit better but I don’t think that Nabokov is out the conversation. You just need to know what you are getting with each goalie.
Nabokov is what you would call an inconsistant goalie. He played in 71 games; 42 games he had a SV% of 925 or higer, 3 games where his SV% was .900 – .925 (2 of those games his SV% was .923) and 26 games he played horribly.
Vokoun had 33 great games, 10 decent games and 19 bad games. Vokoun had 9 games last year where he had a SV% of .925 or higher and lost! However, in 6 of those games the goalie that he faced also had a SV% of .925 so it’s not like he was outplayed the other goalie.
Goalie’s play an important part of whether a team wins or losses. It seperates the Hasek’s from the Luongo’s and seperates Ryan Miller’s from Tomas Vokoun’s. So that’s why I think wins should be somewhat factored in.
You win if your goal differential is positive.
Goal differential = Shooting percentage TIMES shots for MINUS Save percentage MINUS shots against
Goalies do not have a direct impact on shooting percentage and shots, I think that’s fairly obvious from how the game works – those events happen 200 feet down the ice. If correlations exist it is likely due to score effects or some such, things not actually related to a goalie’s skills.
Contrarian Goaltender has done some great work on a goalie’s impact on shots against. The effect can’t be claimed to be significant.
CG, Vic, others have done great work on the skaters’ impact on save %. The effect can’t be claimed to be significant.
So basically, it’s a clean split – goalies primarily impact the SV% part of goal differential and consequently winning. Why give them credit for the whole thing?
It’s relaly the same thing as anything other measure of a player’s ability, context needs to be taken into account. Except in the case of the GOALIE WIN, context completely splits off all of these extraneous bits that goalies don’t have a hand in, and yet we’re giving him credit for it anyway?
That’s crazy talk.
I’ll start with what I like. I like that you’re looking at individual performances to determine consistency. If it’s a real skill (which means it would need to be repeatable, and this is something that we can test for) then it’s very useful to know. I suspect that it won’t be repeatable, but if it is, it’s a very cool way to add to our knowledge of goaltenders.
I also think Nabokov is underrated by the circles I frequent (and overrated in general). A lot of times the statistics that get used are post-lockout inclusive and Nabokov’s worst season by a freaking mile is his 2005-06 year which – unfairly IMO – brings his results down. It just looks so much like an outlier to me.
BUT, even though goalies do play an important part in the outcome of the game, it’s really not enough that you’d want to give them substantial credit for it. They have virtually no control on goal scoring which is, as you know, a huge part of the game. They also don’t have full control over goal prevention. It’s just kind of silly to think that we can learn fresh information about them as individuals based on straight win totals. At the very least, you need to adjust for goal support.
Hasek is a good example of why this is the case. He was awesome. His prime seasons are ludicrously good but they’re all in Buffalo. I’d guess that including wins would probably bring other less good goalies closer to him rather than pushing them further away and, at least in my opinion, Hasek damn well better be clear of the field in his prime in an “all-encompassing” measure of goaltending. As for Ryan Miller, that cat looks to have played over his head this year. His PK save percentage isn’t going to repeat next year and his overall numbers will fall. He’s an above average tender but I doubt he’s elite.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 10, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Nabokov wasn’t the only one who crashed in ‘05-06, although he may have crashed the hardest among the so-called elite tenders. Sv% was way down around the league that year, largely due to an inflation in powerplay opportunities, including what seemed a large number of 5-on-3s compared to any other year in my experience. For example San Jose’s PPGA ballooned from 47 the year before the lockout, to 77, then back to 55 the following year. Powerplay opportunities against similarly surged from 337 to 500 back to 410. When the differences in PP numbers are that extreme they will certainly affect Sv%. League wide the Sv% dropped from .911 to .901, while powerplay goals exploded from 1717 to 2545, an increase of over 48%. In the following years PPG dropped to 2099 and 1871, while Sv% rebounded to .905, then .909.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jun 10, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the added context Bruce. That year does seem to be an outlier just in general because of all those extra PP’s. Still, Nabokov’s EV save percentage that year was .906. Over the rest of his career as a starting goalie he’s ranged from .918 to .931 which makes eight years of average to well very good and one year of Deslauriersesque netminding. I think Nabokov is by far the best bet of the UFA’s this year because you can be pretty confident that you’ll get at least average netminding and, in my view, a downside of “average” has real good value. He’s old, so you’d want to keep the deal down to one or two years but he could be a really good bet for teams that are solid in other areas. The places that make the most sense to me for him are Columbus and Ottawa. He’s probably worth quite a bit to those teams because he improves their chances at the playoffs pretty drastically.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 10, 2010 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, there’s no way that crash to .885 was “achieved” through PPGA alone. Most goalies dropped ~ .010 overall, but Nabby was more like .030. He had a horrid year.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jun 10, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions

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