Tyler Seguin and Established Level of Ability
Colby Cosh recently published an article on why he prefers Taylor Hall to Tyler Seguin in the upcoming entry draft. Now, at this point - and I've only begun my descent into the "comical from an outside perspective" debate about which teenage hockey player is slighty better than the other - I tend to agree with Cosh that Hall is likely the better pick. Nevertheless, I was intrigued by one of his reasons, namely that Hall's talents are more established, or as Cosh puts it, "Hall has the longer resumé." He opines that often in sports, a career year well above expectations is more often representative of luck than it is of legitimate progress. This is almost certainly true of mature players at the professional level but strikes me as suspect when examining players at a junior level where maturation and leaps in ability are, to some degree, what's expected. After the jump, I'll take a look at what recent history might tell us about Seguin's leap in production and Hall's established (stagnating?) performance.
One area that people often look to in determining whether or not a player has been lucky is shooting percentage because a very high shooting percentage often suggests that a future regression should be expected. And that's why I wish both of these players came from the QMJHL, a league that actually tracks things like shots on goal. The OHL? Not so much. Jerks. But that doesn't mean we're totally up the creek. Instead, I've created a chart that shows all of the players who played in the OHL for three consecutive seasons (their draft year, the year before their draft year and the year after their draft year), scored at least thirty-five goals in their draft year and were drafted in the third round or higher between 2000 and 2009. The chart is split into two groups, those who improved their goals per game in their draft year by 0.16 or more and those who improved their goals per game by 0.15 or less. Here are the results for the first group:There wasn't exactly a lot of regression that took place with these guys. The one guy that didn't at least come close to maintaining his production, Dale Mitchell, wasn't drafted until the third round. The scouts clearly saw something they didn't like about him, and they were right. The guy who just kept getting better, Brett MacLean, must have also showed some weaknesses, as he wasn't drafted until the second round. Other second round draft choices in the group are Cal Clutterbuck, Dave Bolland and Stefan Legein. This isn't the case with Seguin; the scouts have indicated that he's clearly one of the two best players in the draft. That combined with the fact that virtually none of these guys see significant regression suggests to me that a significant regression in his goal-scoring is unlikely.
But what about the guys who didn't improve materially in their draft year? Do they see a huge increase in production post-draft? Here's the data:
The first and most obvious thing to notice is that there just aren't very many junior players who are top goal-scorers before their draft year, and fewer still who end up playing another year in junior after they've been drafted. That said, this group doesn't seem to improve any more or less (at least in terms of goals per game) post-draft than does the first group. Thus, it seems to me that the argument around "established level of ability" is something of a red herring. These are teenagers, not professionals, and very real improvement - large improvement - does happen.
That said, Seguin's improvement now doesn't seem to suggest that he will continue to improve more as time goes on than Hall. Both groups were about the same. And at this point, that's why I still favour Hall. Hall's points per game this season was 1.85 compared to 1.68 for Seguin. Including playoff results, the gap swells to 1.85 and 1.61. That strikes me a pretty non-trivial difference. I understand that the goal is to pick the guy who will be the best in five years and not the guy who's the best today but so far I haven't heard any reason to believe Seguin is the one who's more likely to improve. If there's no reason to believe one guy has a better chance at improving than the other, you may as well take the guy who's better today. And it would seem that the guy who's better today is Taylor Hall.
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Comments
It’s a pretty wide brush though, right? For all we know, the guys who made it as NHLers didn’t have shooting percentage spikes, while the ones who did have shooting percentages spike didn’t.
I wrote a short piece on the shooting percentage angle as well:
http://hockeysymposium.blogspot.com/2010/03/tyler-seguins-shooting-percentage.html
I’m not sure I’d be quick to write the whole thing away, but without the data I think it’s hard to say much more than " This is kind of suspicious, the team should look into this and make sure it’s not a shooting percentage spike".
I agree that this is broad brush strokes and it certainly is possible that he had a big shooting percentage season. But he also scored a tonne of goals. I don’t think there should be much selection bias here in that I didn’t limit my sample to guys who made the NHL. This is just everyone who was drafted out of the OHL in the first three rounds and scored at least 35 goals in their draft year who were also sent back to junior the year after they were drafted (to give us something to compare). And there isn’t much in the way of guys falling way back even though I think we can pretty confident that at least a few of these guys shot the lights out. That said, you’re absolutely right that the Oilers should get the actual information. If they have access to video of these games, they can just get someone to count them up.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 2, 2010 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess it depends on how you view quality of teammates in terms of how it impacts your team as well.
TOI would be extremely helpful here, but because we don’t have it there’s a giant question mark. If both guys played similar icetime, Hall has a distinct advantage based on the quality of players around him.
Consider their PPG totals for the year. Hall scored 14 of his 40 goals on the PP (35%). Seguin scored 13 of his 48 goals on the PP (27%). Again, it’s unfortunate that they doing keep track of PP assists.
Not that a guy being able to cash on the PP is bad, but it’s easier to do on a better team. Windsor had 4 guys who had 10 or more PP goals (Hall 14, Shugg 11, Henrique 13, Niemsz 13). Plymouth had 2 (Seguin 13, Jordan 11).
I think that’s where you might find a significant difference between the 2 in terms of production is on the PP. They were close in PP% (25.3% for Windsor and 22.7% for Plymouth), but the Spitfires also had 37 more PP’s than Plymouth did (worth about 8 more goals for Plymouth at their current rate).
Well, good old Jonathan went through the gamesheets and counted up the situational points for both guys through the regular season and it’s true that Seguin ends up being the slightly better EV scorer with Hall being the better scorer on the PP and (for whatever reason) on the PK. I do wish we had the TOI though.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 2, 2010 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions
thanks,
I was just about to start doing that but I was more curious as to how their teammates fared as well.
There’s this notion that Seguin gets all sorts of extra PP time compared to Hall, but it doesn’t seem to bare out in the goals scoring numbers. Windsor seems very reliant on 4 forwards for all their PP scoring with very few other forwards getting much. Plymouth has Seguin leading the way, and a bunch of PP goals scattered through. Whether Seguin is leading because he gets a whack of PP time, or because he’s just that much better is a fair comparison.
It is absolutely a fair and somewhat difficult question. What we do know, thanks to Jonathan’s numbers, is that Hall had 44 points on 99 power play goals while Seguin had 43 points on 87 power play goals. So Plymouth was definitely relying on Seguin a lot more than Windsor was on Hall. I’d be pretty surprised if Seguin didn’t play a higher percentage of his team’s PP minutes than Hall although, as you pointed out, Windsor had more power play time in total.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 2, 2010 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Great work, Scott
More sensible stuff from Mr. Reynolds. Solid work.
Hard to imagine Seguin is more talented on offence than Hall, and the scoring numbers seem to indicate that.
On defence, who knows? A centre who can get the job done in his own zone is worth more than a winger who can, and certainly more than a winger who can’t.
That said, the big issue with Hall is him getting clobbered. If Hall didn’t get clobbered all the time, I honestly don’t think there’d be any debate here, given Hall’s offensive prowess.
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Jun 2, 2010 11:05 AM PDT reply actions
Thanks David. I don’t think Hall being the best offensive player is a slam dunk, especially given the EV scoring and the impact teammates might have. I do think he is, but I don’t think it’s a sure thing. As for defence, we have some imperfect measures that I think point in Hall’s favour. For example, he had the best /- on his very good team during the regular season (46) whereas Seguin finished second on a worse team (+17). Both are very good, but I’d give a slight edge to Hall. The other thing is the PK scoring. Hall’s five points to Seguin’s zero may suggest he has a bigger role on the PK. But that’s the kind of thing one could probably find in a scouting report. As for the clobbering issue, I don’t buy that too much. He’s been playing against bigger and older players (like he’ll face in the NHL) forever and, to my knowledge, he’s never missed a game due to injury. So I don’t really nick him for that. The center thing doesn’t bother me at all either. It seems to me Hall has played some center in Windsor and has done it effectively. In some places, he’s still listed as a center. If the Oilers want him to be a center, I’m pretty confident he could play there.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 2, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty interesting stuff. I’m glad the oilers have the other top-2 pick, here’s hoping you analyze this to death some more.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 2, 2010 1:36 PM PDT reply actions
And if you’ve already talked it to death, please feel free to point me in the direction of any good articles.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 2, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
We’ve been talking this shit to death since December. It’s all we’ve had.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Yeah, I was afraid of that.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 3, 2010 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions
That said, where? The seguin, hall, and 2010 entry draft tags only lead to a couple articles each.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 3, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Doogie is referring to Oiler fans in general rather than we here at the Copper and Blue who have actually only just started talking about it (and I for one am proud of that). I think the best work on the subject so far is Willis’ stuff at Hockey of Die but most of it disappeared when he switched formats or something. How he’s not more pissed about that, I will never know.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 3, 2010 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Hockey of Die but most of it disappeared
boo
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 3, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Nah, it’s still there, as far as I can tell. They just changed URL formats so all the old links are dead, but the posts themselves live all the way back to September when he moved.
Also, check Lowetide. Check all relevant-looking tags on the right-hand side of the blog. That’s probably where most of it is.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Thanks!
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 7, 2010 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I really enjoyed this.
You make a great point out shooting percentage and scoring rate spikes early in a player’s career. We discussed PDO the other day at PPP, and I don’ think anyone had considered it.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Brain fart:
I should have pointed out that much of the discussion kick-started by introduction of PDO revolved around individual players’ hot streaks and so-called ‘career-years’. Obviously, it would be much more difficult to prove that a team stat like PDO could spike due to a team getting more mature as a whole (although, given the average age of the Leafs, I’d like to dream…).
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
The PDO spike due to skill and maturity is the argument the Caps fans are making.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

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