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Shot Quality vs. Quantity I - the winning formula(e)

GLENDALE, AZ - APRIL 14:  (L-R) Nicklas Lidstrom, Brian Rafalski, Henrik Zetterberg, Tomas Holmstrom and Johan Franzen of the Detroit Red Wings celebrate yet another goal. The oft-imitated, never-duplicated "Detroit model" ultimately came to dominate the NHL through its prodigious ability to outshoot its opponent rather than any particular knack at making those shots count. This makes them unique not just in the modern NHL, but across the past 25 years.

I'm a bit of a slow learner, so it may be that I don't quite understand this debate between shot quality and quantity. I have always thought that a real good team lives out in the margins of both, that it will both outshoot its opposition over time, and also win the percentages battle by making more of its shots count. Yet I keep (mis?)reading that it's really all about the shots, and shooting percentages, while important, are largely driven by luck and will eventually regress to the mean. They're best considered some sort of quantum variable which are largely subject to the whims and whimsy of the hockey gods.

OK, maybe I overstate a little. But I think it's fair to say that shot rates are considered more sustainable over time than those fickle percentages. Why look at the poster boys in Detroit, who are heavy outshooters to the point that if they simply shoot and save at around the league average rates they're in the hunt for the President's Trophy. Obviously that's the way it should be done. Everybody should follow the Detroit Model!  

But was it ever thus? I cut my statistical teeth on Oiler Hockey, where the team was happy to trade chances and kill you by execution (so to speak), which they did in a sustainable manner for years on end. So I'm biased to see things the other way.

The NHL has Shots For data dating way back, but officially starting keeping Save Percentages in 1983-84, by coincidence the year of Oilers' first Cup. What does the historical record tell us? Luckily, rather than get into what appeared to be a real chore of collating data readily available in small chunks on hockey-reference.com, I had the happy thought of asking Gabe Desjardins if he had such data readily compiled. Seven minutes later - I'm not making this up - a huge file was in my inbox, with team data dating back to 1967, though with a four-year gap just after the merger. Thanks Gabe! I focused on the post 1983 data, 25 full seasons through 2008-09. I also focused on just real goals, so I weeded out all shootout data which would otherwise skew the data - every shootout effectively yields one goal on zero shots, the sort of equation which is seemingly possible in Gary Bettman's universe but not in mine.

My first approach was to get the data on a level playing field. I determined to express both shots and percentages as ratios, for to against. On the one hand this is easily enough determined from SF : SA. On the percentages side the popular stat is PDO, which is simply the sum of Sh% + Sv%. I love PDO, it's one of my favourite stats, but it is limited somewhat by its additive nature: e.g. a Sh% of 15% and a Sv% of .900 adds up to the same PDO of 1.05 as would a fictive team with a Sh% of 5% and a Sv% of 1.000. Only one of these teams is unbeatable. :) Whereas a ratio of Sh% over opposition Sh% would yield a percentage expressed not in shots, but in goals. It would also better account for era effects than does PDO, whose range has shrunken considerably in the Dead Puck Era. Not surprising when you realize that league wide Sh% has rolled back from ~12% to 9% over the past quarter century. The margins are narrower, but they are still all-important. Moreover, they seem to be sustainable, at least by truly great teams of the recent past if not the present.

The other nifty thing about this shooting percentages ratio - which I am cautiously dubbing the C&B number but will accept suggestions - is that it fits nicely in this equation:

(SF : SA) * (S%F : S%A) = (GF:GA)

Teams that excel in that latter category tend to do well in the standings and in the playoffs, whatever their particular formula for success is. More on these in graphic form after the jump.

Star-divide

Scatter_medium

First of all, let's check out tendencies on a league-wide basis. The first result is a scattergram of all 639 team-seasons in the period under review, showing shots ratios on the horizontal axis and percentage ratios on the vertical. Immediately striking is that the range is very, very similar on both axes, neither data set appears to be "squashed" by a narrower range of possibility. To my eye this thing is as regular as a globular cluster.

Turns out the range of ratios is a tiny bit greater on the percentage meter than it is on the shot clock, but there is little to choose. Check out the fit of these paired Bell curves:

 Bell_medium

Isn't that a beauty? The shots ratio is a little higher at the centre of the Bell curve and a little flatter on the edges: just one example each of a club with less than 7:10 or more than 10:7, whereas the percentages model featured 6 examples of each. The standard deviations are .13 for shots and .15 for percentages. So I would have to say that very nicely supports my original hypothesis that the two aspects of scoring, shot volume and shooting/saving efficiency, are about equally as important in their contribution to a team's outcomes. I had thought it was pretty balanced, but I am pleasantly surprised it's this close. It's two completely different metrics, but for all intents and purposes X = Y! (Important note: this is on the scale of one season. In smaller samples, certainly within individual games or series, percentages fluctuate more than shots.)

Outliers are always interesting, so I featured one in each quadrant in the initial scattergram. The larger diamond on the lower left is the 1992-93 Ottawa Senators, an expansion team that was one of the worst clubs in history (10-70-4, +202/-395). They were only outshot by about 15%, but converted their shots at a rate less than 60% (!) that of their opponents. All of the smaller diamonds anywhere near them in the lower left quadrant are other expansion clubs.

In the top left the big square is the Buffalo Sabres of 1997. Buffalo had The Dominator, but the Sabres were The Dominated on the shot clock, outshot by nearly 4:3. However, thanks largely to their Hart Trophy-winning goaltender, their conversion rates were nearly 3:2, almost 50% better than their opponents, resulting in a team that scored 29 more goals than it allowed, finishing 10 games over .500. I consider it the greatest season of NHL goaltending in my lifetime.

The pyramid all by itself in the top right represents by far the best regular season team of this 25-year period, the 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings who both outshot and outfinished their opponents by 34%. The best of both possible worlds. The result was an outscoring rate of 180%, +325/-181. Those Wings set an NHL record by winning 62 games and finished with 131 points, 7 clear of any other team over the past quarter century. Surprisingly, they fell in the playoffs, ruining what had been a phenomenal season.

Finally, the big circle on the extreme right just below the breakeven line is a different Wings powerhouse, that of 2007-08. Those Wings were very extreme outshooters, an average of 34-23 per game, an edge so significant that they didn't even need to hit the league average in Sh% or Sv%, they just needed to be in the neighbourhood. While some hold Detroit's style of play from that era up as a model, fact is they were an extreme outlier that didn't come close to being duplicated in any of the other 638 seasons under study here. The Detroit Model worked for Detroit.

Here's what worked for others. This scattergram is reduced to just the 25 Stanley Cup champions during the period under study:

Scc_scatter_medium

It is important to note that these are regular season results, so do not necessarily reflect how a given team performed in the playoffs. (I'll be comparing apples with apples and looking strictly at playoff data later in this series) Still, there are some obvious patterns here. The rank and file teams with one or two Cups each are all somewhere in the upper right quadrant, better than average in both departments. The Oilers are the five pyramids at upper centre, all just less than even on the shot clock, but all phenomenal on the conversion rate. The three circles in that general area are the Pittsburgh Penguins, who used a similar plan of offensive firepower finishing its chances at a very high rate. Meanwhile, the five Cup winners who were big outshooters and not so hot on percentages, were all either Detroit (squares) or New Jersey (large diamonds).

Here is that same information laid out chronologically:

Sccratios_medium

(Click for better resolution) In this case I have added a green line indicating GF:GA ratio, which you will recall is simply the product of the other two rates. I note that 25 out of 25 Cup winners had an outscoring rate of at least 110% during the season, a trend that holds true for many years prior as well. This is one trend the Philadelphia Flyers (< 105%) are trying to buck in 2010, but history records that the long shot finalist is typically the losing finalist.  

Interesting to note that a bare majority, 13 of the 25 clubs, were better than average in both categories, with 12 "exceptions" that were below average in one category but exceptional in the other, all coming from the era's four most successful teams. 13 of the 25 clubs were better in the percentage category, 12 in the shots department. Collectively the 25 champions outshot their opponents by 12%, and outconverted them by 13%. There seems to be a fine balance at play here, one we'll examine further in subsequent posts in the coming weeks. 

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Interesting post Bruce. I’m not sure when the consensus “dead puck era” began but it is interesting to me that since the first lockout of 1994 only two teams have won the Cup without outshooting at a rate of at least 110%. One of those teams, last year’s Penguins, did in fact use significant outshooting to their advantage in the playoffs. The other, the 2005-06 Carolina Hurricanes, clearly should have lost :)

Also, I assume you’ve excluded all shoot-out results in your GF:GA ratio and that these results are for all games states combined. Are both assumptions correct?

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 8:38 AM MDT reply actions  

Yeah, there needs to be some context around the Penguins from last year. They were the top outshooting team in the league during Bylsma’s regular season.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 28, 2010 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

Derek, do you have a breakdown of the Therrien/Bylsma split? As I recall it was pretty dramatic … certainly I have rarely seen quite such a blatant display by a team apparently trying to get its coach fired. The bounce after Bylsma took over might have had something to do with Bylsma, but the absence of Therrien seemed the bigger factor from this safe distance.

Scott brings up the point that the ’09 Pens outshot in the playoffs, as did the Gretzky-era Oilers in most of their Cup wins. Some teams play different in the postseason, thus to analyze Cup winners through the prism of regular season stats is far from ideal. This will be dealt with in a future instalment.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think it might have to do more with Gonchar getting healthy, getting a healthy body in for Whitney and not having to play an AHL calibre goaltender anymore.

by dawgbone98 on May 28, 2010 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

Therrien = 46.8% SF/(SF+SA)
Byslma = 53.6% (53.2% incl playoffs)

by Hawerchuk on May 28, 2010 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Dammit, I knew I would forget something. (I’ll add an edit cuz it’s important.) Yes I extracted all shootout goals – but not empty netters – and only included what I call Real goals in arriving at percentages. In the process I’ve noticed how the teams with the best GF:GA ratios – which is to say, the ones best at Real hockey – don’t get commensurately rewarded in the standings as they once did. It’s almost like they’re playing a different sport in the regular season, and I’ll have a little more to say about that in a future post. But the darn Bettman point has certainly wreaked havoc with traditional expectations, which is as continually frustrating as it remains unsurprising. The regular season results that we rely on for so much of our statistical content, have been warped and not in a good way.

Speaking of the little wanker, The Dead Puck Era is an interchangeable term with the Bettman Era in my personal chronology. In the first five years of his reign, scoring dropped by Two goals per game, and has been in the doldrums ever since.

You are certainly correct to notice that over the 25 years under study here, the outshooting model has had more success in the more recent past. Part of that is simply due to the character of the dominant teams at their given times and the effect they have on the big picture, but a big part of it is the game is changing. Hard to disentangle how much of it is a cyclical thing and how much is evolutional changes due to advances in goaltending, systems play, etc. I’ll try to address this going forward.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is why I joined this blog even though I’m a Leafs fan. Fascinating work.

I wonder if part of the reason shot ratio has taken on more importance than percentages in the past 15-20 years is a narrowing of the talent. In other words, if the average hockey player gets a score of 100, today the range would be 90-110, whereas in the ’80s perhaps it was 75-125. Though you had less teams, you also had less Europeans and Americans.

If this hypothesis were correct, one might expect outlier shooting percentages to be less prone to regress to the mean than they do today. If you have a 125-talent player (Gretzky, Kurri) shooting on a 75-talent goalie (Alain Chevrier? Darren Eliot?), it’s more likely they can consistently shoot above league average than if you’re a 110 (Ovechkin) shooting on a 90 (Toskala). And sure enough, ‘80 through ’91 Gretzky’s shooting percentage ranged from 14.9-26.9%, including five straight years over 20%. These are ridiculous shooting percentages even given the generally higher rates back then.

With a narrower talent gap, shooting percentages (and save percentages) regress more to the mean now, and the best recipe winning is the Detroit/NJ model of outshooting the crap out of teams, demonstrated this year by Chicago.

I don’t know, just spitballing, but very interesting work nonetheless.

by The '67 Sound on May 28, 2010 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great stuff, Bruce.

The Russian teams of the early 1970s were outshot consistently and Tarasov was proud of that fact. He hated it when his team wasted a shot. His whole focus was efficiency, and he felt that was best served by holding the puck until you got a great chance.

In contrast, hardcore NHLers have always believed in shooting first, and asking questions later.

It looks like the best NHL teams cover their bets by doing both. Or they just get a lot of shots because that’s how it works out when you’re better than the opposition.

From what I’ve seen, the best teams are marked by the ability to take advantage of mistakes made all over the ice, to quickly mount a counter-attack (fast break) and successfully convert the best of these scoring chances.

Teams that don’t make so many mistakes, and have the ability to recover (often through strong goaltending) when the do happen, are also marked for greatness.
 
Hockey is a game of mistakes, many NHL coaches say, to which I would add: Hockey is a game of making the opposition quickly pay for their mistakes.

And the best teams and players are able to do just that, or they’re able to stop the opposition from doing just that.

Maybe these great teams also get a lot of shots on net as a by-product of their dominance, but I doubt that’s why they’re winning so many games.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 9:38 AM MDT reply actions  

Summit Series:

Game 1: Canada 32 Russia 30
Game 2: Canada 36 Russia 21 (Canada destroyed Russia)
Game 3: Canada 38 Russia 25
Game 4: Canada 41 Russia 31 (Canada was down 1 or 2 most of the game)
Game 5: Canada 37 Russia 33 (Brutal game)
Game 6: Canada 22 Russia 29
Game 7: Canada 25 Russia 31
Game 8: Canada 36 Russia 27 (Canada down 2 in the third, plus needed the win to win the series)

Canada had 54% of the shots, but they also spent 40% more time in the 3rd trailing by 2 or 3 goals, so it might be a little closer to even. I think the Russians got outshot because they got dominated, but they had better goaltending, so it didn’t hurt them.

by Hawerchuk on May 28, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Incidentally, 3rd periods…Canada had 57% of the shots. Periods 1 and 2 – 52.6%

by Hawerchuk on May 28, 2010 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

But, Gabe, the Narrative is that the NHLers were fat and out-of-shape because of the training regimens of the era, so they folded like cheap tents in the third period. THAT’S THE FUCKING NARRATIVE!

by Benjamin Massey on May 29, 2010 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks Gabe. I was aware how close these shot totals were.

Of course, Tarasov was no longer the Russian coach for this series. He writes in his book of the other team have 60 per cent more shots on average in his big 1970 and 1971 tournaments.

I should say he “brags” about this. He truly was proud of it.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Reminds me of the movie “Comrades of Summer”. Russian hockey manual says…

Did those pre-1972 Russian teams ever face a good opponent? They beat a garbage Canadian team at the 1968 Olympics, but lost to the Czechs, who lost to Canada. In 1964, they beat Canada 3-2. In 1960, they got killed.

by Hawerchuk on May 28, 2010 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I just scanned the book in a bookstore last week. It cost $100, so I didn’t want to buy it, and I can’t remember exactly what tournaments Tarasov was talking about, save that they were in 1970 and 1971. I’m guessing it was the World Championships, and we know that the Czechs, Swedes and sometimes Canada gave Russia a good game back then. .. . Should have bought the book, but I’d already purchased a history of the Montreal Maroons and was feeling guilty .. .

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

I had Tarasov’s book, sold here as “Russian Hockey Secrets” or some such, which had a real nice run in paperback in this country that summer/fall of ’72. He had just been disappeared as the brains of the gang and replaced by early scoring star Vsevolod Bobrov behind the bench, but Tarasov was the Russian Toe Blake, always won everything. I remember this one chapter in particular, “Tournament in Ljubljana” where he described game by game from the Russian viewpoint, what I believe was the 1966 World Championships. Outstanding stuff.

Game 1: Canada 32 Russia 30
Game 2: Canada 36 Russia 21 (Canada destroyed Russia)
Game 3: Canada 38 Russia 25
Game 4: Canada 41 Russia 31 (Canada was down 1 or 2 most of the game)
Game 5: Canada 37 Russia 33 (Brutal game)
Game 6: Canada 22 Russia 29
Game 7: Canada 25 Russia 31
Game 8: Canada 36 Russia 27 (Canada down 2 in the third, plus needed the win to win the series)

so: Canada 267 USSR 227
ergo: Canada 11.6% USSR 14.1%
since we know: Canada 31 USSR 32

What you lose in the swings you gain in the roundabouts. We had more shots, they had higher shooting efficiency and/or better goaltending. They were extremely evenly-matched teams even as they approached the game quite a lot differently. It was absolutely fascinating to watch from both the intellectual and emotional perspectives.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 8:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

And furthermore . . .. :)

There’s a lot of emphasis on trying to understand hockey through the stats we have such as shots on net, shots at net.

I don’t believe these stats are all that helpful (though Bruce has done a helluva job here of making sense of what we do have).

The current stats are inadequate maps for the real territory of a hockey game (and the older maps are even worse, kind of like early maps of North America that don’t get it right).

What we need are new and better maps, new and better stats, which is why I applaud the work here on scoring chances. It’s a step in the right direction.

It would be interesting to know, for instance, which team had more Grade A scoring chances in their series, the Islanders or the Oilers. Of course, those games are available to watch, so perhaps some hardcore hockey history nut will go back and do the grading.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 9:48 AM MDT reply actions  

Ultimately the issue with scoring chances is that they are subjective, so they are as reliable as the hit stat or the giveaway/takeaway stat when looking beyond the current team/series.

One guy charting chances for a playoff series is one thing… but what about 2 different guys alternating depending on who is the home team?

What about even further down where 1 guy counts scoring chances for 41 home games and 18 other guys track it for the other 41?

I think scoring chances are great, but it’s a subjective stat and I think loses it’s effectiveness when too many hands get involved.

by dawgbone98 on May 28, 2010 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I’d think getting three scorers to agree a given shot is a SC is a pretty good indication this is a scoring chance. Actually having many people calling those would help weed out marginal chances, I think.

by Olivier on May 28, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Keep in mind that what you’ve said here is also true of shots on goal which is used regularly in determining player value. I agree with Olivier below that more hands, so long as they’re competent, would be more help than harm if they’re implemented carefully.

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

Shots are a different animal though. Anything that hits the goalie while he is in net is pretty much a shot. You run into issues here and there on shots from the angles and that but overall I think they have shots down pretty good.

It’s the Real time stats that they seem to screw up on the most.

by dawgbone98 on May 28, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree, but I don’t see why the scoring chances stuff would have much more variance than Corsi (blocked shots show significant arena bias IIRC) which we use for analysis all of the time. If the group is filled with good people, it may well yield more reliable results than what we currently get from the NHL.

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

But you run into subjectiveness, which ultimately is the problem. There isn’t much subjectiveness on a shot so they are pretty easy. There is a lot of subjectiveness on a hit, which is why that RTS is virtually useless.

There’s a subjectiveness to scoring chances and while we’ve seen agreement on a small scale, I’m not sure it applies on a larger scale.

If we had 1 person do all the games or a couple of people combined to do them, but I’m not sure I trust the NHL stats guys with this… they’ve been rather unreliable in the past.

by dawgbone98 on May 28, 2010 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess what I’m saying is, we don’t need to trust the NHL stats guys to do this. We can do it ourselves. And if we do it ourselves, I think we’ll be better off with two or three people per game pooling results than with one person tracking each one, primarily because that will weed out some of the subjectivity.

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

No doubt we can do it ourselves, and like I said that’s great for an analysis within the team or even over a specific series against a common opponent. But if we are talking about a league-wide tool, that’s where the issue lies.

by dawgbone98 on May 28, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess it depends on how many good people commit to the project. This season we had six different teams with one rep (though no one did every game I don’t think) so that’s a fifth of the way there. If we can get thirty trust-worthy people, we’ll have two sets of eyes on each contest, which is pretty darn good. There has been some movement there with Gabe trying to get a group together.

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed

… and I don’t think it is possible for amateurs grading scoring chances to fuck up nearly as badly as the NHL has in (not) providing quality control for its RTSS stuff. As I have whined before at some length, some RTSS data varies from rink to rink by a factor of 6! Whereas Scott and Olivier seem to agree on a vast majority of what is or isn’t a scoring opp. I like Olivier’s proposal of three independent scorers, where 2 votes defines a scoring chance (and perhaps that all 3 votes defines a “good” scoring chance). But that assumes – correctly – that interested observers will take the process of judging events within the game a whole hell of a lot more seriously than the NHL does. That’s a safe bet given the NHL’s cavalier attitude towards new statistics.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

db – I have multiple sources for scoring chances from different scorers that I compare. Even over 10 games the SF/SA ratio converges.

by Hawerchuk on May 28, 2010 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t know that scoring chances will ever be an official league stat, but I’d be very surprised if teams don’t start doing this work on all league games. A private company, such as NHL team, could likely do a better job of enforcing standards, making sure that all scoring chances are rated the same, if they believe it will give them a competitive advantage.

Any NHL GM who buys this idea that it makes sense to rate player performance and two-way play through an individual scoring chance metric, will go to great lengths to get the necessary data, and to make sure it’s sound, and I suspect this is a do-able project. Just need to hire and train a dozen hockey-man interns.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Grade A scoring chances

What would you consider a Grade A scoring chance and how many “Grades” of scoring chances you think there ought to be? I should also make it clear that this is a serious question and not a (poorly executed) rhetorical slam.

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

A key question that I’ve been asking for some time. Vic sometimes writes about “25-cent chances” and “10-cent chances” and so forth, which is an excellent shorthand for expectations from certain types of opportunities. What would appear to be a similar opportunity is different for different players (and teams). A team with a great execution rate like (here I go again) the 80s Oilers would likely have a higher ratio of scoring chances than they have shots on goal, and would also have a higher conversion rate of those scoring chances. Scoring chances are not the same thing as execution, although I daresay they will prove devillishly hard to separate.

And a whole lot of it comes down to choices, both by the player and the scorer. For example, how about a play where what might initially appear to be a 25-cent scoring chance might ultimately become a 60% pass for a 50% shot. That results in a conversion rate of either 30% or 50% depending on whether a missed pass is considered a missed scoring chance or nothing at all.

Ultimately you would wind up with a similar equation to the one I outlined above for shots, namely “opportunity rates times conversion rates = outscoring rates”. Ultimately the key number, and the only true one, is the one on the right side of the equation. When a goal is scored, both the opportunity and the conversion factors will improve; when one isn’t scored, one improves at the expense of the other, the same way a Patrick O’Sullivan shoot-in that winds up on goal will raise his shots total but lower his Sh%. Goals are the true currency, and the factors going into them will always be an approximation.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Scott.

I did this kind of ranking of Grade A and Grade B chances last year for the Stanley Cup final. . .

My definitions:

A Grade B chance is a screened shot from the point, or a hard shot from the outer slot where the goalie has time to get set.

A Grade A chance is a hard shot from the inner slot, or a hard shot from the outer slot where the goalie has no time to get set or is screened.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I compared two scoring chance systems (somebody was nice enough to send me their data). The data from their A/B system and the data from the generic system (ie – random volunteers on the internet) converged. The internet scorers count everything down to B-/C+ as a chance.

by Hawerchuk on May 28, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is from my post on last year’s Cup final.

Pittsburgh and Detroit, two teams with somewhat different styles of attack, ended up with almost exactly the same number of scoring chances in the seven-game 2009 Stanley Cup finals.

In the end, Pittsburgh had 121 scoring chances to 120 for Detroit. As much as the outstanding skill of the players, that the two teams were so equal when it came to firepower and defence helped make for such a thrilling series.

P.S. I broke down the scoring chances to figure out which players were individually involved, and you can read about it all, if you want here.

http://communities.canada.com/edmontonjournal/blogs/hockey/archive/2009/06
/13/detroit-and-pittsburgh-were-dead-even-when-it-came-to-scoring-chances.aspx

and here

http://communities.canada.com/edmontonjournal/blogs/hockey/archive/2009/06/17/the-sad-case-of-valtteri-filppula-in-the-2009-stanley-cup-finals.aspx

Pittsburgh did, however, have a decided edge when it came to Grade A scoring chances, hard, dangerous shots from the slot area, getting 82 such chances compared to just 60 for Detroit.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on May 28, 2010 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting to note that over half of the chances you recorded were regarded as A’s. Did you notice distinctly different scoring rates on your “A” chances compared to your “B” chances?

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 5:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great post, Bruce

But doesn’t the data indicate that outshooting has taken on more importance than shooting percentage? Scott’s point above about a sole team not outshooting their opposition combined with the fact that five teams over that span have had below average percentages would seem to show that.

A posse ad esse.

The Copper & Blue|OilersNation|Hockey or Die!

Twitter: @JonathanWillis
Mail: jonathan.willis@live.ca

by Jonathan Willis on May 28, 2010 11:02 AM MDT reply actions  

Thanks, J-Dub. Yes, I would agree that things are tending in that direction. A study of the last 10 seasons rather than the last 25 would yield different results, for sure. 4 of the last 10 Cup winners have had better margins in the percentages than on the shot clock, but of the other 6 some of the gaps have been pretty wide in favour of the outshooting side of things. Both Detroit and New Jersey have made their living that way, which skews the overall data in favour of the outshooting model. i.e. The last ten Cup winners have outshot their regular season opponents by ~18% but outpercentaged them by only around 8%. I just caution as to whether that’s a true change in the game or simply a cyclical thing. For sure I don’t anticipate seeing another 2007-08 Detroit any time soon.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

That’s a fair point, and I appreciate the thoughts. I didn’t know the Oilers were such a good percentages team until you showed it.

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by Jonathan Willis on May 28, 2010 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

It might be interesting to look at all regular season teams with a regulation winning percentage of at least 60%. That would surely give you a larger sample of teams to draw from (rather than focusing on a few dynasties)

by Scott Reynolds on May 28, 2010 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yup, that’s one of several approaches I have in mind for Part ?.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great stuff Bruce.
There are always seasons where teams are able to provide production at rates higher than the average. However the point is that can teams continue to do so season after season.
Or are you trying to say the teams should be more patient in their approach towards shots and hold onto the puck till there is a high percentage shot available?

by SumOil on May 28, 2010 11:36 AM MDT reply actions  

No, I’m not trying to say what teams “should” do. I’m just interested in what they do do, and how there’s been more than one path to success.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really interesting stuff!

Being a Chicago bandwagon fan, I haven’t had an opportunity to learn enough about the rest of the league and beyond recent history, but as a fan of a team that’s trying to replicate that “Detroit model” (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth, but it’s true), I’ve definitely taken an interest in this quality vs. quantity/volume debate.

In the limited stuff I’ve done it does seem like shot quality (or proxy stats for it) does matter, and quite a bit at that. At least for the ‘Hawks, maybe it’s because you can assume the quantity is always there (so measuring it is less meaningful), but quality is more important factor to whether we win a game or not.

There were two things I was a bit confused by on this analysis though. Does the Dead Puck Era really not make a big difference? I wonder how the Detroit model plays differently before and after the lockout, and as Scott pointed out in the first comment, maybe it did.

Secondly, are you actually equating (or at least drawing a parallel) between shots and shooting percentage because their distributions look the same? Since they are bell curves, I wonder if they’re just roughly normally distributed (law of large numbers would seem to apply here) and look that way as a result, rather than implying a meaningful connection between the two.

by VerStig on May 28, 2010 2:47 PM MDT reply actions  

There were two things I was a bit confused by on this analysis though. Does the Dead Puck Era really not make a big difference? I wonder how the Detroit model plays differently before and after the lockout, and as Scott pointed out in the first comment, maybe it did.

Yes I think so. I tried to address that in the comments more than in the body of the article, specifically in response to Jonathan’s comment a little ways up the page. This being a multi-part series, I thought first let’s show the whole quarter century, then later on zero in on specific examples and look for trends. Of course readers like JW, Scott and yourself are way out in front of me and driving the conversation in that direction.

The Dead Puck Era and the not-unrelated GBFL* points system have both served to change how regular season hockey is played. One outcome of studying long-term effects of things like shots data is to establish a background rate against which modern trends can be contextualized.
( * Gary Bettman’s Free Lunch)

Secondly, are you actually equating (or at least drawing a parallel) between shots and shooting percentage because their distributions look the same? Since they are bell curves, I wonder if they’re just roughly normally distributed (law of large numbers would seem to apply here) and look that way as a result, rather than implying a meaningful connection between the two.

No, I’m drawing a parallel because the numbers are the same. When expressed as a ratio of for to against, both Shots and Sh% exhibit almost exactly the same range, meaning that variability in each aspect has a roughly equivalent impact on the scoreboard. The boundaries of extreme performance, bad and good, seem to be roughly 2:3 and 3:2 in both shots ratio and Sh% ratio. That the distribution curves are similar is no surprise; what strikes my eye is that they are both plotted against against the same X axis. Whereas most fitted curves that I see at least seem to need multiple legends, these both use the same one, absolute values expressed as ratios.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 8:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good stuff here Bruce. As for the “Detroit Model”, which you seem to be trying to “debunk”, there is one important thing to keep in mind – I would hazard a guess that it is easier to outshoot someone than to try to raise your Shooting%. Particularly when you’re dealing with teams that may not feature elite NHL talent. It’s been established that players have a lot of control on how many shots they take, but not nearly as much with the conversion % of those shots.

To me, this would seem to indicate that unless you have a particularly exception team like those 80’s Oilers or the early 90’s Pens, both of which show up as big “shoot smarter, not more often” blips on your graphs, then your best bet is to try to get more shots. That a team like the Detroit Red Wings doesn’t subscribe to this actually seems a bit counterintuitive, but I do remember the story with this strategy for the Red Wings was always as a way to beat Patrick Roy and some of the other top-end goalies in the league. If you keep shooting, hey, shit happens.

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by IAmJoe on May 28, 2010 7:25 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks for your comment, IAmJoe. I’m not trying to debunk the Detroit model so much as point out how truly exceptional it was. The 2007-08 season that defines at least the post-lockout Wings, was an extreme outlier that is unlikely to be duplicated, even as a team like Chicago is making a reasonable attempt. For sure the outshooting model has worked well in the 2000s. (That said, I haven’t noticed too many teams driving the Detroit model to repeat titles.)

One could argue that in a similar vein the Penguins of ‘91-92 were emulating the Oilers model that had proven successful in that era. Outshooting doesn’t matter, outchancing and outexecuting can win it all. The Oilers showed it, and the Penguins proved it.

So both models have worked, albeit in different eras. The only thing we can’t say with any confidence is whether it’s a one-way trend in the post-apocalypse NHL, or whether the wheel will keep on turning and someday what was old will be new again.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 28, 2010 11:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

So both models have worked, albeit in different eras. The only thing we can’t say with any confidence is whether it’s a one-way trend in the post-apocalypse NHL, or whether the wheel will keep on turning and someday what was old will be new again.

I would guess that the primary impetus for choosing to use one strategy or the other is what personnel you have available. Pittsburgh was able to do this in 2009 – having two of the best players in the NHL, who presumably have a better than average ability to take better shots and get better chances, is likely a good reason to pursue that kind of strategy. However, not many teams out there have the ability to do that sort of thing. Any idiot can throw a shot on the net though – so if you don’t have some serious top-end talent, then maybe outshooting is the best way. Given that not many teams have the kind of top-end talent the Penguins have, I’d suspect you see more teams going with the “shoot more” approach instead of “shoot better”. Both would seem doable, just that one requires some very particular personnel.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on May 29, 2010 2:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

could the change in philosphy be due to market conditions?

It strikes me that the salary cap may have something to do with the shift in philosophy from an execution focus to a sheer numbers focus. It reminds me a lot of the shift that happened in baseball to hitters took a lot of pitches and just got on base, rather than hit home runs.

The Oilers and 91-92 Penguins had the advantage of having extremely superior talent which might be harder to hold together under a salary cap system.

In the transition from relying on just acquiring superior shooting talent, many GMs have latched onto the fact that there are some under-valued Corsi-driven players to be acquired for less than grabbing a high-end shooter that would cost them so much more in terms of salary and trade value.

Obviously this is one opinion, but just gloating it out there to see what others think.

by SO_RyanP on May 29, 2010 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yes I think the salary cap will have an impact on what kinds of teams can be kept together, in fact I expect it will constrain any sort of dynasty from reaching full flower. As Gabe Desjardins showed in his piece “PDO Dynasties” (linked above), dynastic teams of the past were very successful “riding the percentages” – not just the Oilers but the Islanders before them and the Habs before them.

Further clouding the issue is expansion, or lack thereof. Powerhouse teams of the ‘70s like the Habs, Bruins, Hawks and Flyers (all on Gabe’s list) played a lot of competition that was clearly weaker than they, indeed that arguably didn’t belong in the league. It’s the sort of thing we continue to see today in the early rounds of international tournaments, where one team is clearly of a higher calibre than the other – better team = outshooting, but better shooters and goaltenders = outpercentaging. The top teams would routinely outscore these weak sisters by a lot bigger margin than they outshot them, and moreover they played a lot of games against them in a smaller league.

By the Oilers run, the league had stabilized at 21 teams, so they arguably had fewer free spaces on their dance card, but the parity in the league was certainly not close to what it is now. The league has again stabilized at 30 clubs for a decade and has promoted parity at every turn, even changing the rules to reward teams who can keep things close. Defensive systems, high percentage goalies, and low scoring games are all the rage now; seems to me that the teams that try to “ride the percentages” are no longer the strongest teams, but increasingly the weaker ones.

Any idiot can throw a shot on the net though – so if you don’t have some serious top-end talent, then maybe outshooting is the best way.

I would argue that the kings of the outshooters, Detroit and now Chicago, have some pretty serious top-end talent, they just employ it differently.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 29, 2010 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think we should just call this number Bruce

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by Derek Zona on May 29, 2010 8:14 PM MDT reply actions  

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