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Blackhawks 4 - Sharks 2: Game Two Scoring Chances

Andrew Ladd releases the 53 ft. wrist shot.  screen grab via NHL.com


You're looking at only the second goal not deemed a scoring chance since I started pinch-hitting for Dennis King in tracking Oilers chances this season.  The first was against Jeff Deslauriers, which speaks for itself.  This one, though, came against the goaltender I spent a large portion of the game one post defending, so thank you very much, Evgeni Nabokov.  This screenshot is illustrative, I think, of the process that goes into tracking a scoring chance.  I've used the same definition of a scoring chance (see the definition after the jump) since the beginning of the playoffs and I've stuck to it as closely as I can, watching all shots directed at the net at least twice and any shots that may be a questionable chance in slow motion, frame-by-frame. 

On this play, the NHL official scorer marked Ladd's shot at 53 feet.  A 53-foot snap shot from the center of the ice should be saved by the goaltender an extremely high percentage of the time, as it's not in the "dangerous scoring area" from the crease to the dots and into the slot.  There is no element of surprise as the puck was carried in by the shooter, there was no cross-seam pass or one-time shot.  After watching the three replay angles in frame-by-frame, I determined that there was no screen, in fact, Nicolas Wallin actually moved out of the way of the shot as Ladd wound up.  There was no deflection, either from the defender or from another forward in front of the net as Ladd was the first man into the zone.  So the goaltender had an unscreened look at an untouched snap shot from the puck carrier from 53 feet and whiffed.  For the second time in eighteen games, I ruled that a goal was not a scoring chance.

Star-divide

Scoring Chances for game 30322

For those of you who are new to the concept of tracking scoring chances, a scoring chance is defined as a clear play directed toward the opposing net from a dangerous scoring area - loosely defined as the top of the circle in and inside the faceoff dots, though sometimes slightly more generous than that depending on the amount of immediately-preceding puck movement or screens in front of the net.  Blocked shots are generally not included but missed shots are.  A player is awarded a scoring chance anytime he is on the ice and someone from either team has a chance to score.  He is awarded a "chance for" if someone on his team has a chance to score and a "chance against" if the opposing team has a chance to score.  Vic Ferrari makes this all possible with his tools to evaluate Corsi, head-to-head ice time and scoring chances.

I'm tracking this series with the Sharks as the home team, so in any unlabeled sequence, the first number is for the Sharks, the second for the Blackhawks.

 

Period Totals EV PP 5v3 PP SH 5v3 SH
1 8 4 8 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 4 2 2 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
3 5 5 5 3 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
Totals 17 11 15 8 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0

 

The Sharks again won the battle of the chances as evens and lost the game, this time soundly.  This wasn't a case of winning because of game state - the Sharks jumped out to an early chances lead and stayed up the entire game.

 

Team Period Time Note SJS CHI  
CHI 1 18:44   8 16 29 4 44 20 19 33 88 4 51 31 5v5
SJS 1 18:29   8 16 29 4 44 20 19 33 88 4 51 31 5v5
SJS 1 14:06   8 16 29 4 44 20 11 37 55 4 51 31 5v5
SJS 1 14:05   8 16 29 4 44 20 11 37 55 4 51 31 5v5
SJS 1 12:54   12 19 15 3 22 20 36 32 16 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 1 12:49   12 19 15 3 22 20 36 32 16 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 1 9:51   12 19 15 3 22 20 36 37 16 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 1 9:25   8 16 29 4 44 20 11 19 88 2 7 31 5v5
CHI 1 8:09   17 19 64 3 22 20 10 22 81 2 6 31 5v5
CHI 1 7:26   12 19 15 7 40 20 36 32 16 2 7 31 5v5
CHI 1 1:33   12 19 15 3 22 20 10 22 81 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 1 0:45   12 21 64 7 40 20 36 32 16 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 2 13:56   17 27 39 3 22 20 10 22 81 5 6 31 5v5
CHI 2 13:01 GOAL 8 16 29 4 44 20 19 33 88 4 51 31 5v5
CHI 2 11:31 GOAL 17 27   22 44 20 19 10 33 88 2 31 5v4
SJS 2 9:23   8 12 19 15 22 20 11 22   4 5 31 5v4
SJS 2 8:52 GOAL 8 12 19 15 22 20 10 32   5 7 31 5v4
SJS 2 3:32   8 16 29 7 40 20 11 37 55 5 6 31 5v5
SJS 3 19:35   27 15 64 4 44 20 19 33 88 2 7 31 5v5
CHI 3 19:15   19 15 64 4 44 20 19 33 88 4 5 31 5v5
CHI 3 13:42 GOAL 12 19 16 7 40 20 10 22 81 4 51 31 5v5
SJS 3 11:59   17 21 27 3 22 20 10 22 81 5 6 31 5v5
CHI 3 10:32   8 12   4 44 20 19 33 88 2 7 31 5v4
CHI 3 10:24   8 12   4 44 20 19 33 88 2 7 31 5v4
SJS 3 4:30   8 12 15 29 3 22 19 32 33 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 3 4:29   8 12 15 29 3 22 19 32 33 2 7 31 5v5
SJS 3 4:28 GOAL 8 12 15 29 3 22 19 32 33 2 7 31 5v5
CHI 3 2:07   8 27 16 4 60 20 11 19 88 5 51 31 5v5

 

After Jonathan Toews early chance, the Sharks reeled off seven straight chances and were trailing 1-0.  Annti Niemi kept the Hawks in the game once more.  The second period was a bizarre one as there were only six chances total, three on the power play and three at even strength, but there were three goals in the period.

 

# Player EV PP SH
3 D. MURRAY 20:12 8 2 0:00 0 0 1:56 0 0
4 R. BLAKE 19:08 5 4 0:00 0 2 3:13 0 0
7 N. WALLIN 9:03 2 2 0:00 0 0 0:26 0 0
8 J. PAVELSKI 14:56 8 3 1:02 2 2 3:36 0 0
12 P. MARLEAU 18:35 7 3 1:02 2 2 4:01 0 0
15 D. HEATLEY 19:28 7 3 1:02 2 0 1:53 0 0
16 D. SETOGUCHI 15:55 5 4 0:00 0 0 0:12 0 0
17 T. MITCHELL 13:23 2 1 0:00 0 1 1:34 0 0
19 J. THORNTON 18:36 3 5 1:02 2 0 1:47 0 0
20 E. NABOKOV 51:56 12 8 1:02 2 3 5:31 0 0
21 S. NICHOL 8:15 2 0 0:00 0 0 0:13 0 0
22 D. BOYLE 23:03 8 2 1:02 2 1 3:26 0 0
27 M. MALHOTRA 13:40 3 1 0:00 0 1 1:46 0 0
29 R. CLOWE 15:25 8 2 0:00 0 0 0:41 0 0
39 L. COUTURE 7:34 1 0 0:00 0 0 0:00 0 0
40 K. HUSKINS 11:47 2 2 0:00 0 0 0:01 0 0
44 M. VLASIC 19:09 5 3 0:00 0 3 3:51 0 0
60 J. DEMERS 2:14 0 1 0:00 0 0 0:13 0 0
64 J. McGINN 10:11 2 2 0:00 0 0 0:05 0 0

 

For San Jose, I don't know if there is much that Todd McClellan can change.  His lines are winning the chances battle and the Corsi is even.  Unless he can cast a spell on Nabokov or turn Thomas Greiss into Olaf Kolzig, circa 1998, the Sharks are in trouble.  If I were to show these two chances charts with names redacted and asked for a winner, the nearly universal answer would be the Sharks.  Copper & Blue favorite Logan Couture isn't getting a regular shift and has been a non-factor.

 

# Player EV PP SH
2 D. KEITH 26:01 3 9 4:20 3 0 0:00 0 0
4 N. HJALMARSSON 16:48 4 3 0:00 0 1 0:44 0 0
5 B. SOPEL 12:50 2 3 1:13 0 2 1:02 0 0
6 J. HENDRY 8:36 1 3 0:12 0 0 0:00 0 0
7 B. SEABROOK 23:52 2 9 3:46 2 1 0:18 0 0
10 P. SHARP 12:09 3 2 3:09 1 1 0:15 0 0
11 J. MADDEN 8:31 1 4 0:36 0 1 0:31 0 0
16 A. LADD 18:21 1 4 0:53 0 0 0:00 0 0
19 J. TOEWS 13:46 4 6 3:47 3 0 0:16 0 0
22 T. BROUWER 12:35 3 2 2:13 0 1 0:31 0 0
31 A. NIEMI 52:05 8 15 6:53 3 2 1:02 0 0
32 K. VERSTEEG 18:04 1 6 1:15 0 1 0:15 0 0
33 D. BYFUGLIEN 13:06 3 5 3:59 3 0 0:00 0 0
36 D. BOLLAND 19:51 1 4 0:53 0 0 0:00 0 0
37 A. BURISH 6:45 0 4 0:00 0 0 0:00 0 0
51 B. CAMPBELL 16:03 4 3 2:21 0 0 0:00 0 0
55 B. EAGER 6:16 0 3 0:00 0 0 0:00 0 0
81 M. HOSSA 12:44 3 2 2:01 0 0 0:16 0 0
88 P. KANE 14:07 4 3 3:47 3 0 0:00 0 0

 

The talking heads are really getting caught up in their own story here.  Dave Bolland is getting rave reviews for his work thus far in the series, but he's been outchanced 3/14 in two games and Kris Versteeg has put up a 4/12.  This line's work is so is so good that they should play for the Montreal Canadiens.  I understand what Joel Quenneville is trying to do - he's freeing up Jonathan Toews by running away from Joe Thornton.  But the point isn't to shut down Thornton - it's to free up Toews.  But if the point is to shut down Thornton, Bolland is doing a miserable job of it and Quenneville should look to some other strategy as soon as possible.  In spite of all of this, it's been the Troy Brouwer - Marian Hossa - Patrick Sharp line that has done the chances damage in both games.  Brouwer is 6/6, Sharp is 8/6, and Hossa is 9/5 so far, mostly against Manny Malhotra's line.

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Pierre Maguire won’t shut up about Bolland but then again he never saw a simple narrative that he didn’t like. I thought that line had a better game than the first game but they aren’t the traditional checking line, that’s for sure. Whereas a guy like Hossa always makes the safe and simple play when its called for, all of Bolland/Ladd/Versteeg were guilty of some pretty awful turnovers.

Whatever was bothering Hossa has cleared up though, he really had a terrific game. And the return of Campbell has had a ripple effect, even though he is way overpaid he still is a decent defenceman and now of course Byfuglien is up front rather than on the blue. Imagine if they could run Jonsson out there as well?

Its funny because I did not find Clowe or Pavelski particularly good and I thought Heatley has just been terrible and yet they are way in the black. Meanwhile Thornton has been excellent imo and yet he’s in the red at EV this game.

by Pat Mc on May 19, 2010 11:47 AM MDT reply actions  

I think over the last two games, Setoguchi is the difference-maker on that line and especially last night. He played a wonderful game by the eye, but didn’t have the same results on paper.

As for Chicago, the guy that I’m really liking is Buffaloen. He’s not a difference maker on his own like, say Penner, but he understands his role very well and even when he’s trailing the play finds himself in good scoring areas. I think Kane and Toews are guilty of ignoring him from time to time.

I think it would be interesting to watch these games again and track the touches, like Scott has done in the past. I don’t think Heatley is driving the play at all. Marleay and Thornton, to a biased eye, seem to be doing the work and Heatley is just hanging around looking for scraps. I could be wrong, but when I’m watching scoring chances, Heatley isn’t noticeable at all.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

No he is not. Apparently he might be hurt but for me its Heatley being Heatley. Losing puck battles, making poor decisions defensively and so on. When the Oilers were pursuing him those against said that he had but one dimension (an excellent one to have) but when he is not scoring there is not a lot to like.

While Thornton is playing very well but not getting the results and Marleau is scoring some and playing ok I think, Heatley is doing neither.

There has been a lot of talk about who the Hawks dump this summer and I would say they want to keep Sharp and Byfuglien for starters. The big guy creates absolute havoc in front of the net and I think he’s a decent player overall. And there is a lot to like about Sharp.

I have to admit I am surprised by the scoring chance count from last night. I thought the Hawks had the far better of it except for the very beginning of the game. Maybe in my mind their chances are the better ones? Not sure. Niemi made that terrific save in the first and of course there was the pad save on Mitchell but I didn’t find that he was as tested as he was in Game One.

by Pat Mc on May 19, 2010 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you break down the chances, you have:

1 18:29 – 9:25
San Jose gets 7 in a row in the first while Niemi was standing on his head, including two ridiculous saves on Setoguchi.

3 4:30 – 4:28
San Jose gets three chances in a row in the span of three seconds with the delayed penalty call on and a 6 on 5 (note that Nabokov only has 12 CF in the game). Marleau scores the tap in on the third chance.

Add in the chance that occurred because Keith deflected the puck off of his hand, which hit Niemi’s shaft.

Eliminate these two sequences and Keith’s HUA, which are plainly obvious to the eye, and you have Chicago winning the even strength chances battle 8-4 for the rest of the game, plus 3-2 on the power play, for a total of 11-6.

Does that fit with what your eye saw a bit better?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Keith’s HUA

I’m sorry but what was Keith’s HUA again?

I understand contesting all of the “love” Bolland is getting but I don’t understand the attack on Keith. In your mind if you were to rank the reasons, what would they be for “why the HTML line has been shutdown as much as it has?”

by DaleHalas on May 20, 2010 6:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I missed where I attacked Keith.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 6:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Keith’s HUA

Might be a language barrier thing…

HUA might mean something different to you then it does me. Where I come from that is considered attacking…

by DaleHalas on May 20, 2010 7:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Head Up Ass.

Reaching out to try and grab a shot, rather than just blocking it down, is definitely having your head up your ass.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

By the way – a friend of mine has taken to calling Byfuglien “Bafangol”.

It works so well.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pierre Maguire won’t shut up about Bolland but then again he never saw a simple narrative that he didn’t like.

That’s awesome.

by Passive Voice on May 19, 2010 11:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hossa has not been scoring goals - but throughout the playoffs he has been stupendous at everything else

Heatley is sort of the opposite lately, he is not scoring and seems to be doing poorly at everything.

I have liked (from a Hawks an standpoint) the Ladd/Bolland?versteeg line’s play – yes, they are unconventional and it all looks scary (but we’re used to the Hawks heart attack style to some degree by now). It produces weirdly bad looking numbers, but it is working to win games. I can’t fully explain it, but I will take a win with bad numbers any day of the week.

Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on May 20, 2010 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

It produces weirdly bad looking numbers, but it is working to win games.

That’s the point. The narrative is that Bolland is winning games, but he’s not. Sharps and Toews are winning the games, Bolland is getting drilled.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t know how Hossa played against Nashville but he was very underwhelming in the first five games against the Canucks.

by Scott Reynolds on May 20, 2010 5:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Would a PvP of Kane-Toews-Hossa @ Thornton’s line work you think?

Not that it matters – CHI stole two games on the road with the current strategy. Whatever happens going forward, I wouldn’t bet on CHI losing 4 of the next 5.

by Kent Wilson on May 19, 2010 12:09 PM MDT reply actions  

Would a PvP of Kane-Toews-Hossa @ Thornton’s line work you think?

In the long run it doesn’t matter because Hossa is going to beat up on Malhotra on a pretty regular basis. The combination of Toews beating Pavelski and Sharp beating Malhotra seems to be enough to make up for Bolland getting drilled. I just wish that this was talked about because instead we’ll have to hear a year’s worth of yammering about how the way to beat the Sharks is to get Thornton “off of his game like Dave (David for Pierre) Bolland did.”

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Which is why having a lot of forward depth is nice.

by Kent Wilson on May 19, 2010 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Is Sharp really beating Malhotra though? It looks like Manny went 2-0 at evens against Hossa+Sharp this game, and 1-0 in the first game. Looks like Hossa’s success has come against Jumbo, no?

by Passive Voice on May 19, 2010 11:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sigh. I knew I should have counted, rather than going by TOI.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Kane-Toews-Hossa

Kane and Hossa have shown that they really don’t play well together. Neither seems to be very productive unless they are the RW.

When Toews plays against the other teams first line with Kane, the Hawks usually move Ladd up to play with them. Or at least Brouwer. Otherwise Toews plays with Hossa against the other teams top line.

To be honest the only center that gets production from Kane is Toews, so the Hawks coach is reluctant to split them.

To me these playoffs have been keeping Toews as an offensive threat. As long as Bolland’s line isn’t giving up goals the Hawks will take the other matchups…

by DaleHalas on May 20, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not to start a scoring chance definition war between you and Reynolds...

but would you have rule Leino’s goal a scoring chance? He was outside the dot with no screen at a bad angle. I just assumed if it was a goal, then it was automatically considered a scoring chance. Thanks for clearing that up.

by EamusCatuli23 on May 19, 2010 12:58 PM MDT reply actions  

I don’t have the luxury of HD frame-by-frame on this one, so it looks like it’s borderline. It’s just outside of the scoring area, and I can’t tell if it’s a superior shot or an inferior save. I’ll defer to the person recording the chances.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sure looked inferior to me.

/grumble

(Halak hasn’t been great this series, but it doesn’t help that he has literally zero run support.)

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on May 19, 2010 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you can give me a better angle on a better replay, I can give it a look-see.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Let’s just say that Halak gets an unassisted Primary Error on the play. It’s a lot closer shot than the one Nabby sieved in, from an angle where you’d expect the goalie to be .980 and it was just the 2 in 100 that fools the guy somehow.

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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 19, 2010 7:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Did you only see the Versus feed or CBC too?

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on May 19, 2010 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

I didn’t get to see the third period at all.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 11:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I meant online, after the fact.

I fast-forwarded through that period, but I did stop to see the goal and the scrum. I watched the goal, sighed, and moved on. I’m with Bruce: it was a bad goal by Halak.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on May 20, 2010 12:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Late to the party;

It wasn’t a chance from what I saw but I did record it a chance because it’s a goal and unless it’s something absolutely ridiculous, I always count goals as chances.

But Leino is actually down and out the dot so it’s an easy save. It looked to me as if Halak was startled by Bergeron streaking in front of him while the shot came in.

Doesn’t matter tough. Halak’s fine.

by Olivier on May 21, 2010 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

I pretty much always count goals. Of the regular chance-counters I have found that I’m the second most generous in general with only Dennis counting more than I do reasonably regularly.

by Scott Reynolds on May 19, 2010 9:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

What about the Ladd goal above?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 10:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’d count it. There are just a LOT of goals that get scored from outside the most dangerous scoring chance areas, whether because of perfect shots or poor positioning or a funny bounce or something else. If it ends up in the back of the net, I almost always count it. I don’t think there was a single goal in the 41 Avs games I did that I didn’t include.

by Scott Reynolds on May 19, 2010 11:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

What about the Ladd goal?

I thought the goalie was expecting the shot to come from the right side of his defender. The shot seemed to come from the left side of the defender. Isn’t that the very definition of a “screened” shot?

by DaleHalas on May 20, 2010 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t know what the goalie was expecting, all I can go by is what the replay shows. The angle from behind the goalie shows that the puck was never screened. I could see it the entire time, and as I noted, Wallin actually moves out of the way of the puck. There’s no way that someone tracking scoring chances can get into the minutia of what a goalie is thinking at the time.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

The angle from behind the goalie

Sorry, I don’t remember ever seeing that from behind the goalie.

From the other side Wallin doesn’t get out of the way. Instead Ladd Toe drags around Wallin and shoots from the other side. The reason I thought it was “screened” was because I didn’t think the goalie repositioned after Ladd moved to the inside of Wallin…

by DaleHalas on May 20, 2010 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great, quotable stuff again. I’m not sure how reassured it is acceptable to be when my team keeps losing, but your analysis goes a long way towards making me feel better and keeping things positive.

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by Megalodon on May 19, 2010 1:49 PM MDT reply actions  

McClellan is going to have to coach the best five games of his life to pull this off. Without a goalie intervention, I don’t see how he can win.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

your analysis goes a long way towards making me feel better and keeping things positive.
Without a goalie intervention, I don’t see how he can win.

I laughed.

Great stuff Derek. Not sure why Couture saw the least amount of ice time amongst forwards last night.

"San Jose is where I want to be at the end of the day, and there's an opportunity now to make it there. It is where my heart is." - Jamie McGinn, 2/22/10
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by Mr. Plank on May 19, 2010 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

I laughed.

It’s funny because it’s true.

Great stuff Derek. Not sure why Couture saw the least amount of ice time amongst forwards last night.

He’s been close to the bottom throughout, but McClellan has really slammed the lid on him this series. I understand his fears — Couture is just a kid — and I get why he’s playing the matchups so closely, but Couture has only been outchanced twice in thirteen games this playoff season. Both of those games were against Colorado and he was outchanced by one in each game.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 8:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I keep seeing the kid good. I caught the Sharks at Edmonton late in the season (5-1 loss to the lowly Oilers) and he was one of the very few who impressed. Broke a sweat, gave a shit, and seemed to know what he was doing.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 19, 2010 9:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

It’s difficult not to in these playoffs. He’s 45/20 in chances and has only lost the battle twice!

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 19, 2010 10:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jumbo was somewhat right

In the post-game interview, he kept saying the Sharks didn’t play so badly (or maybe, it was that they had their chances). Guess they did. The horror show I remember seeing was the huge difference in giveaways. Solve that (easier said than done) and maintain the rest, and the Sharks have a decent chance.

If only Nabby does a 180

by IsThisTheYear? on May 19, 2010 6:02 PM MDT reply actions  

Keep up the great work!

Love the breakdowns(been reading them since round 1). So much better than the garbage that they put out in the local newspapers.

by InThorntonweTrust on May 19, 2010 11:13 PM MDT reply actions  

I’m glad you’re enjoying them, I’m sorry you haven’t been able to enjoy the series.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 1:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great analysis. Kind of confirms what no fan in teal wants to admit, but Nabokov is much to blame for that loss.

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by Will Bulldozer on May 20, 2010 1:06 AM MDT reply actions  

Very intelligent article

I wonder a bit about the definition of “scoring chances” and, in general, some of the intangibles this analysis misses.

The Hawks have been the better team in the second half of both games.

I bet the Hawks outchanced the opposition in 80% of their losses this year (definitely true for shots.) That doesn’t mean the Hawks shoulda won all those games, or it was all down to goaltenfing differential.

Compare, e.g., a great chance that misses the net with a so-so chance that finds the top corner.

Not overly surprised with the stats on Bolland’s line either. HTML is a scoring machine. Thornton had an awesome game, then he loses his shit. Intangibles.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 20, 2010 9:40 AM MDT reply actions  

I wonder a bit about the definition of "scoring chances"

Do you have a better definition that we could use?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

No

I think the analysis is very cool and provides a useful perspective, but it is not the whole story.

There is a meme running around SCH lately that I think is spot-on. Basically, it says that hockey is less susceptible to being explained by statistics than other sports.

I don’t want to get all mystical or pooh-pooh statistics, but we should be careful from jumping from any statistical analysis to conclusions like:

Bolland is getting drilled

or

CHI stole two games on the road

I don’t think these conclusions are warranted here. Sedin’s penalties and Thornton’s slash- they tell us something that these statistics don’t.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 20, 2010 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

There is a meme running around SCH lately that I think is spot-on. Basically, it says that hockey is less susceptible to being explained by statistics than other sports.

Prove it.

I don’t think these conclusions are warranted here.

Bolland and Versteeg are getting outchanced 1/3 – you think that they are doing something extraordinary? If Niemi isn’t standing on his head, there would be no Bolland story line.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

You're right

If it can’t be measured, it doesn’t exist.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 20, 2010 4:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

That’s not a real argument though. If you think Bolland has a particular skill at drawing penalties, you can look it up. Over the last two seasons, it turns out Bolland is pretty good (though not fantastic) in that area. So maybe he’s been getting under their skin, or maybe they’ve frustrated by pucks not going in. It’s hard to say. Are there any other reasons you think Bolland has performed well?

I’m interested as to why you think hockey is less easily measured in statistics than, say, basketball. Do you have any reasons? I’m more than happy to say that all statistics are simplifications and thus miss things in their analysis. That’s why, as you say, scoring chances (and any other statistic) don’t tell the whole story.

by Scott Reynolds on May 20, 2010 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

When you say
That’s not a real argument though.

I hear:

“Can’t fit into model- DOES NOT COMPUTE!”

A couple thoughts to illustrates the wider problem:

In this model, Marleau’s tap-in is considered a “scoring chance”- and the model thinks all scoring chances are created equal.

Also, the model does not consider- what does the shooter do with a scoring chance- i.e. the difference between missing the net and tucking one in the top corner speaks to whether a team should wn or lose- this is invisible to the model.

Models can be improved, but I think there’s a limit on what you can wring outta hockey statistics. If you’re really interested in this concept, meditate on the possibility a bit, scroll the web (VerStig and gmh at SCH are stats people with a lot of acument here)- information is out there, better than I could put it.

On a practicial note, here’s a critique of the original analysis:

This wasn’t a case of winning because of game state – the Sharks jumped out to an early chances lead and stayed up the entire game.

Close but no cigar. Last time I checked, teams aren’t interested in protecting a “lead in chances”- look at ths through the lens of “lead in game”- now there’s a game state.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I’m sorry but “if it can’t be measured, it doesn’t exist” isnt’ a real argument. It’s a straw-man argument.

As for your objections, I completely agree with all of them. The scoring chance model we’re using is simplifying something very complex and undoubtedly hides a whole lot in the process. It’s absolutely important to be aware of what’s being hidden and you’re right that we’ll never find the “core stat that explains absolutely everything.” That’s just not possible. But do scoring chances tell us something important? I think they do. And in Bolland’s case, you still haven’t offered any observations beyond “goals aren’t going in so much” and “some players took penalties against him.” Derek has offered a pretty reasonable argument that, despite those things, he’s still being outplayed.

Close but no cigar. Last time I checked, teams aren’t interested in protecting a "lead in chances"- look at ths through the lens of "lead in game"- now there’s a game state.

I suspect you’ve misunderstood Derek here. Often a team with a lead (in goals) will protect that lead by sitting back. Often that results in the trailing team accumulating more scoring chances (just does) which means a leading team may end up trailing significantly in scoring chances but only because they’ve made a strategic choice to protect a lead. Derek was trying to establish that, with the game tied, the Sharks still had more chances. His comment had nothing to do with a team trying to “protect a lead in chances.” So this is, once again, a straw-man argument.

by Scott Reynolds on May 21, 2010 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

Let's keep it simple

I watched a hockey game. I think I understand hockey pretty well. Both team played well- the Hawks withstood an early surge by SJ, Niemi stuffed some good chances- the Hawks score a deflating goal 7 minutes in.

From there on, the Hawks enjoyed an edge in play, and, like game 1, as the game wore on, the Hawks were stronger (not surprising- they’re younger and deeper.)

Bolland’s line did not outplay HTML, but they don’t have to, because this match-up means Sharp and Hossa are marauding around against 3rd liners. But Bolland has succeeded, for the 2nd series in a row, in frustrating one of the game’s top scorers into stupid, uncharacteristic penalties. Unfortunately, such data do not lend themselves to being incorporated easily into a numerical model

The next day, I learn here that “Bolland is getting drilled” and “CHI stole two games on the road.” What can I say- these conclusions are utterly at odds with what I saw.

So, what are these definitive statements based on? Well, a model that in your own words “is simplifying something very complex and undoubtedly hides a whole lot in the process.”

Are you prepared to endorse these strong conclusions based solely on the output of on an admittedly flawed/incomplete model?

I’m not- I acknowledge that the eye test can mislead, but to suggest that numerical results that come out of a model can’t also be misleading is naive.

Disciplined, numerical analysis can be a source of lots of insights, as I acknowledged in my original, favorable comments regarding this analysis. But don’t think that, because these numbers are hard-edged and scientific-looking, they can be used to prove things about a game that stubbornly refuses to be reduced to a handful of equations.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sharp and Hossa are marauding around against 3rd liners.

Think so? Can you prove it?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 21, 2010 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are hung up on "proving" things

But the real world isn’t quite as tidy as a syllogism.

Since this is the standard you wish me to adhere to, though, can you tell me, succinctly, what, if anything, the anlysis presented in your original post proves?

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

If I may, and I apologize in advance if I’m misinterpreting Derek’s stance, I don’t think he’s trying to prove anything. I think the point of all these scoring chance breakdowns is just to try to present the underlying structure of the games with all the emotion and crazy outcomes stripped away.

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Amen to this

A clear and valubale takeaway from Derek’s analysis is a corrective to the notion that Bolland’s line outplayed HTML. Well done, sir.

But he goes much farther than this (Bolland drilled, Chi stole 2). No amount of number-crunching can “prove” these statemets.

And I woudn’t ask him to “prove” such things (It’s impossible), except this is the standard he wishes to apply to my conclusions.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

present the underlying structure of the games with all the emotion and crazy outcomes stripped away.

If that is the case then he should NOT be using terms like “head up as” or “killed”.

Basically, IMO, the analysis would have more merit if it was described in a less emotional way. Of course ymmv…

In the case in point, having a third line that loses the quality chances to a number one line but wins the Corsi numbers is far from being “killed”. Having Puck possession is still the best way to play defense and those “stats” are more than acceptable in that matchup. Especially when it frees up Toews to be putting up MVP like offensive numbers…

by DaleHalas on May 21, 2010 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

I thought HUA was a technical term. ;)

Seriously, it’s shorthand for “brain cramp” which is an excellent description of what and why things happen at times, whether one is emotionally invested in the game or not.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 22, 2010 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

As far as proof here

I think I can prove something:

If Team H matches Line C against Line X and Line A against Line Y, then I think Line B ends up drawing Line Z.

I suppose Line X and Line Y can carry extra minutes as an alternative- I’m fine with that.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

I do want you to know that Derek and I often disagree so my answer would be, no, I don’t think it’s fair to judge any one individual based solely on scoring chances (or any other single statistic). And in fact, I think VerStig provided some good evidence that Bolland’s group is not, in fact, getting drilled by Thornton’s. That said, they do seem to be having problems staying in the black overall (which as you’ve mentioned, isn’t a huge problem for the Hawks if they’re eating up the tough minutes).

I’m a bit puzzled as to your distinguishing the statistics used from watching the game. Statistics are just observations after all. Your own observations also simplify complex situations. For instance, when you call Thornton’s penalty uncharacteristic, you assume a lot. Do you know how often Joe Thornton takes penalties? Or what kinds of penalties he usually takes? Or if Bolland has a history of drawing penalties? I don’t know about the type but I do know that Thornton, over the course of this season, took one minor penalty for every sixty minutes of even strength ice time. So far in this series he’s taken one minor penalty in about thirty-six minutes of ice time. So that’s pretty close to what he’s done all year. Further, Bolland, over the whole season, hasn’t been all that good at drawing penalties. So I’m suspicious of the narrative that Bolland can draw penalties by getting stars of their game on a consistent basis. One slashing call is some evidence but there is other statistical/observational (they’re really one and the same in this case) evidence that suggests this may not be the case.

by Scott Reynolds on May 21, 2010 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

When I called Thornton's penalty uncharacteristic

I assumed he wasn’t in the habit of losing his shit and taking dumb penalties late in the game in the face-off circle when his team could ill-afford such stupidity. Please correct this assumption if it is in error.

And this:

Further, Bolland, over the whole season, hasn’t been all that good at drawing penalties.

I don’t know what possible relevance this has to my argument one way or the other, but it might interest you to know that Bolland missed over half the season with a back injury.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fortunately, Scott uses /60 ratios for analysis.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 21, 2010 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Regardless

He played hurt early in the year, and took a while to find his game after returnng.

So, these data may not be indicative of his ability here.

Plus, I still don’t see the relevance.

Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!

by cliffkoroll on May 21, 2010 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

The penalty statistic I’m using is a rate over ice time (0.9 minor penalties drawn per hour of EV ice time) so the injury shouldn’t have much impact other than reducing the sample size. Last year he was at 1.2 minors drawn per hour of ice time and my understanding is that he played a similar role, so something in that range seems reasonable. The reason I think it’s relevant is that I’d be more inclined to give Bolland credit for getting under Thornton’s skin (in a way that draws penalties) if he had some particular talent for drawing penalties in general (Patrick Kaleta is the poster-boy for this kind of player). As for whether or not Thornton takes occasional hot-head penalties, I really don’t know. All I’m saying is that one penalty doesn’t make a pattern. As for the penalty itself, it seems like the thing Thornton was angry with was getting called. He didn’t seem angry with Bolland at all, just the ref. It was a bad penalty to take, but I don’t think we can deduce Thornton’s motivations on that play. He may have been trying to hit the stick and nailed his hand by accident.

by Scott Reynolds on May 21, 2010 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Regarding Bolland

Since his return from back surgery, I believe Bolland played the majority of his time centering the 2nd line. His offense was lacking and he seemed to struggle in most aspects of the game. Often times, one leads to another.

Since he was moved down to the 3rd line during the playoffs, his role has obviously changed. To the eye test he’s been playing quite well and irking the opposition into stupid penalties.

I know it’s a small sample size, but maybe it would be more applicable to look at Bolland’s ability to draw penalties while playing on the 3rd line? Or compare the Penalties For/Against data for the past two season that you linked to versus what he’s done in the playoffs this year. I think cliff’s point is not that he historically excels in this area, but is doing so in now. And that is being overlooked based on “historical” data.

Regarding “confirmation bias.” Yes, that obviously exists here, but IMO in a positive way. We are just pointing out that the there is more to the story. I’m sure you would agree. With input from commenters like Cliff, Dale, VerStig, and the many others, hopefully you guys will continue your path towards the Holy Grail of hockey statics.

Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.

by ChicagoNativeSon on May 21, 2010 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

We are just pointing out that the there is more to the story.

I guess that’s what has me confused—I’m not too sure what the “more” is that you’re pointing out. My understanding is that you think Bolland’s scoring chance numbers against Thornton don’t do Bolland justice, because Thornton took a dumb slashing penalty?

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Minor aside: It seems to me that the applause for for Bolland (and line) sorta comes at the expense of Sharp (and line) and Niemi. I realize there’ll be enough credit to go around when(/if, technically, though I don’t like [EC Champ]‘s chances) the Hawks lift the mug, but if it’s Lux et Veritas we’re after, it seems that not enough attention has been paid to the work of Sharp+Hossa.

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 11:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

AHHH orange post box hurts my eyes!

Sorry. Don’t mean to crash the party here, but for what it’s worth, thought I’d show off the stats I compiled in the thread over on SCH.

Basically this is a table of head-to-head Corsi ratings, so shots-directed-at-net differential while the row player is on the ice at the same time as the column player. I included just a couple lines from each team but you can click for the full thing (also, it’s from the ’Hawks point of view, so a + for a Hawk is a – for a Shark):

Keep in mind this is just the SOG, and blocked/missed shots captured by the statkeepers at the game. One thing I like about your “scoring chances” posts is the fact that you’re basically accounting for shot quality.

That said, even just going by raw totals I have to believe that even if Bolland’s line is still getting outchanced, he’s limiting their effectiveness quite a bit. It’s Pavelski’s line that, in their limited head-to-head ice time, is causing his low Corsi rating.

Btw cliff, the point of my FanPost wasn’t that statistics were completely useless; it’s more that they have to be accompanied by a keen eye towards what’s actually happening on the ice. I just feel that statistics people sometimes get buried in the numbers, and I’m certainly guilty of that at times. But hopefully this provides a more useful point of discussion than the semantics of “scoring chances” and whatnot.

by VerStig on May 21, 2010 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ooooooooohhhhh!

Those are nice!

Never thought about fitting the team’s Corsi’s in that space! And the oblique disposition of the names….

by Olivier on May 21, 2010 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’ll second Olivier here. Really dig the charts. I was aware of Chi’s superior Corsi over the first couple of games but didn’t know the distribution at all. That’s really interesting.

by Scott Reynolds on May 21, 2010 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

I kinda loathe Chicago all of a sudden. Not only are the Hawks loaded, but their blogger’s charts are better than mine.

by Olivier on May 21, 2010 9:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

srsly, fuck these guys :D

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

the point of my FanPost wasn’t that statistics were completely useless; it’s more that they have to be accompanied by a keen eye towards what’s actually happening on the ice. I just feel that statistics people sometimes get buried in the numbers, and I’m certainly guilty of that at times.

Agree 100% with this. Stats should illuminate rather than overshadow the game, as they sometimes seem to. Personally, I find the scoring chance project very helpful, but like shots, Corsi or pretty much any other metric they don’t tell the whole story. Especially when the only measures available are 0 or 1. As the old saying goes, usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Great charts, by the way. Very, uh, illuminative.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on May 21, 2010 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

To be honest, I was really surprised at the skew

The fact that Pavelski’s line is tearing up Bolland’s line in very short head-to-head ice team means they’re either catching them on changes, or that McLellan really needs to work harder at his matchups. Probably both.

by VerStig on May 21, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

Also

Maybe my memory is kind of foggy already, but I think that the HTML line (as Sharks fans fondly call them?) had pretty much no close-in chances in Game 1, but they did in Game 2. So perhaps Chicago is fortunate that Bolland’s line was good in the former and lucky in the latter?

by VerStig on May 21, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’m in the midst of recounting by matchup rather than comparing time on ice.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 21, 2010 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ouch, Blake+Vlasic getting eaten alive by Toews+Kane. Looks like the Sharks pairing went (2,-3) at ES in game 2 after (0,-5) in game 1, so that sorta meshes.

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

There is a meme running around SCH lately that I think is spot-on. Basically, it says that hockey is less susceptible to being explained by statistics than other sports.

Hm. Usually I’d expect that kinda thing to pop up around a team that had more wins than stats would expect. I dunno if I’ve seen a worthwhile number yet that doesn’t speak pretty favourably of the Blackhawks. Is that meme new enough to be in response to the first two games of this WCF?

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

Usually I’d expect that kinda thing to pop up around a team that had more wins than stats would expect.

Just an awful sentence. Sorry everyone.

by Passive Voice on May 21, 2010 12:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think what you’re seeing are just as likely to be score effects as anything else, i.e. the team that’s behind 1 or 2 goals usually comes flying hard to try to even it up and the leading team has to weather the storm. Without having numbers to break down, it’s hard to say for sure if that’s what’s happening, but it’s a good possibility.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on May 20, 2010 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

But the point isn’t to shut down Thornton – it’s to free up Toews.

In the first playoff series the Hawks coach moved Shark to second line center, Bolland to third line center and Madden to fourth. This was because Legwand was “out depth-ing the Hawks”. Before that the Hawks were forced to play ones against ones so Toews was playing with Hossa. Since then Toews was moved back with Kane and Toews has been on an offensive tear…

by DaleHalas on May 20, 2010 11:01 AM MDT reply actions  

Agreed, Quenneville is doing a magnificent job of personnel manipulation right now.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Do you record the games and watch them again or is there a site that you all are using when you go back to watch a series?

I can’t find anything thus far that has full replays of the games…

Pittsburgh sports all the way

by GoPens! on May 20, 2010 3:29 PM MDT reply actions  

DVR, good sir.

NHL Gamecenter has archived games.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Derek,

I also wanted to apologize for my overreaction regarding your porn comment on a different post. I’m kind of ashamed I didn’t pick up on it as I’ll be starting law school at the fall.

Thanks again for all your hard work. Please keep it up!

Pittsburgh sports all the way

by GoPens! on May 20, 2010 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’ve been using CBC a lot and I also have GameCenter.

by Scott Reynolds on May 20, 2010 5:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll have to start trying it sometime.

Pittsburgh sports all the way

by GoPens! on May 20, 2010 6:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

DVR sometimes

But I’m lucky, I have a Firewire equipped STB, which means I can transfer the program stream on my computer.

HD MPEG 2 Transport streams are huge (8gig/hour) but for SC recording, it’s a pure joy.

For those of you who didn’t understand a single word of what I just wrote, nevermind.

I do find CBC’s feed to be unredeemably crappy. TSN’s are nice tough. Never tried the NHL gamecenter. But I’m a dork; I generally loathe hockey at 30fps.

by Olivier on May 21, 2010 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

This has probably been asked...

Is there a stat that quantifies the quality of scoring chances?

For example- a penalty shot would be worth 5 points, a 2 on 1 would be 4, a rebound shot would be worth 3, a wrister from faceoff with no traffic 1? Blocked shots a .25 point…

Maybe taking those and adding them up would give a more accurate description of chances(quality + quantity). Seems like a misleading stat if a 3 on 1 is counted the same as a shot shot from the top of the circle with no traffic…

by InThorntonweTrust on May 20, 2010 4:57 PM MDT reply actions  

Misleading is a bit strong I think as everyone is aware of the limitations. Unless you mean that, by simplifying, all (hockey) stats are misleading (not all shots are created equal either). At any rate, I do think that NHL teams categorize the scoring chances by quality but thus far I (we) haven’t been doing that.

by Scott Reynolds on May 20, 2010 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

As soon as someone offers me a salary to do it, I’m on it!

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on May 20, 2010 6:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

What your thoughts were as to what characteristics would be evaluated when determining shot quality? I know Tom Awad has done some work on this already (http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=540), but I think it might be helpful to add a metric for whether the shot was stopped with a screen in front of the goaltender.

Pittsburgh sports all the way

by GoPens! on May 20, 2010 7:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bad grammar :/

Pittsburgh sports all the way

by GoPens! on May 20, 2010 7:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

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