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RTSS stats: Giveaways, Takeaways, and Throwaways

Do Real Time Scoring System stats hold any value? I have followed them with interest for some years, mostly because they are there and do provide some context to different sorts of contributions players make. There has never been much doubt that the recording of said stats is deeply flawed, yet an actual count of things like Hits is surely better than simple anecdotal "seen him good" accounts. Many folks value Missed Shots and Blocked Shots for their contribution in fleshing out shots data into Corsi stats, which are a pretty good proxy for zone/possession time. Of course they too are subject to recording error and subjectivity bias of the scorer, as indeed are shots themselves.

Perhaps the canaries in the RTSS coal mine are the paired stats of Giveaways and Takeaways. These are opposite sides of the same coin, a turnover which is attributed to a negative action of a puck carrier OR a positive action of an opposing checker. Yesterday I was tooling around in this section of NHL.com and made some interesting observations. I was specifically looking at Oiler forwards with 20+ GP, and in the course of my investigation compared them against their peers in the Northwest Division. My methodology was to express a ratio of takeaways to giveaways (in that order, so that higher number = better). To my surprise I found an apparent correlation between Gv:Tk and the Northwest Division standings!  

Team Tk Gv Tk:Gv Pts% Pts%/Lg
VAN 374 237 1.58 0.627 1.12
COL 405 310 1.31 0.593 1.06
CGY 397 380 1.04 0.559 1.00
MIN 292 291 1.00 0.520 0.93
EDM 334 472 0.71 0.367 0.66

(The last column, Pts% over league, is simply the ratio between a team's Pts% and the NHL mean, currently hovering around .559. A number of 1.00 in this column is the closest thing we have to the old standard of .500.)

Hey lookit! The highlighted columns are remarkably similar, ranking the teams in the correct order. The teams with the best success in giveaways v. takeaways are also enjoying the best success in the standings! Such a nice correlation; could this possibly be a coincidence?

Star-divide

In a word, yes. In this case the stats do co-align with reality, but it's a pure fluke of this particular (small) sample. Examining the team stats across the NHL reveals that the standard the NHL has seemingly established in counting these events is actually No Standard At All.

The NHL team leaders in Tk:Gv ratio are NYR, ATL, CHI, CBJ, CAR, and NYI. 5 of the top 6 are in the bottom third of the NHL. In other words, epic fail.

Particularly striking when looking at the these numbers on a league-wide basis is the enormous discrepancy in home/road splits. The scorers are not necessarily more "generous" with the home town team, but they are far more likely to notice them and attribute actions on the ice to them, be they positive or negative. League-wide in 2009-10, home teams have been credited with over 37% (!) more takeaways than visitors, and debited with nearly 42% (!!) more giveaways.

Moreover, some rinks simply count way more total events than others. The number of total events (Gv + Tk) for the home team ranges from a modest 281 in Phoenix to 1098 on Long Island, very nearly a factor of 4! On the road the range, as one might expect, is a much more constrained 390 to 552. This supports the theory of many, myself included, that RTSS road stats are much more valuable than full-season totals. They're a long way from perfect: some teams play three road games on the Island, others none (including the Islanders!), but discrepancies are far more likely to balance out.

The Islanders lead the entire NHL with 857 takeaways, a cool 500 ahead of the Stanley Cup champions from Pittsburgh who rank a rank 29th in this "important" defensive category. 99% of their advantage comes in the oh-so-friendly confines, where the Isles have recorded 624 of those takeaways, nearly 5 times as many as the Penguins' 129 on home ice; on the road, the Islanders' edge is an inconsequential 233-228.

The league leaders in giveaways are none other than your Edmonton Oilers, who have been charged with a scandalous 972 such turnovers, nearly triple the 359 charged to the Blue Jackets. Not surprisingly, most of this discrepancy can be found on home ice, where trigger-happy statisticians have charged the Oil with 737 giveaways, compared to just 235 on the road. They are also more generous with takeaways although in moderation; the Oilers have 307 TkA on home ice, 196 on the road. In all the Oil have recorded 76% of their giveaways and 61% of their takeaways on home ice.

Home/road splits are not readily available on an individual level; while they can be scraped from game sheets, NHL.com does not show them. So I concluded that any comps of individual Oilers against their Northwest foes would be an entirely useless exercise.

Are RTSS numbers valueless? Not quite. Players within an individual team will play their games in front of the exact same scorers from night to night, so in-team comps should be fairly valid. Let's take a closer look at those Oilers with 20+ GP, ranked in order of net turnover differential per 60 minutes of ice time (the right-most column):

Player  MP Gv Tk Tk:Gv Gv/60 Tk/60 Tk–Gv/60
Shawn Horcoff 1358 31 45 1.45 1.37 1.99 0.62
Marc Pouliot 347 10 13 1.30 1.73 2.25 0.52
Fernando Pisani 477 12 11 0.92 1.51 1.38 -0.13
Zack Stortini 638 12 10 0.83 1.13 0.94 -0.19
Robert Nilsson 845 37 31 0.84 2.63 2.20 -0.43
Mike Comrie 503 17 13 0.76 2.03 1.55 -0.48
Dustin Penner 1401 56 44 0.79 2.40 1.88 -0.51
Patrick O'Sullivan 1174 38 28 0.74 1.94 1.43 -0.51
Ryan Stone 293 17 14 0.82 3.48 2.87 -0.61
Ryan Potulny 941 39 28 0.72 2.49 1.79 -0.70
Andrew Cogliano 1053 44 29 0.66 2.51 1.65 -0.85
Gilbert Brule 905 39 25 0.64 2.59 1.66 -0.93
Ales Hemsky 395 15 8 0.53 2.28 1.22 -1.06
Sam Gagner 1108 39 14 0.36 2.11 0.76 -1.35
J-F Jacques 549 23 9 0.39 2.51 0.98 -1.53
Ethan Moreau 979 43 12 0.28 2.64 0.74 -1.90

Lo and behold, there's good old Shawn Horcoff at the top of the charts, challenged only by the up-and-coming two-way forward Marc Pouliot. Reliable Fernando Pisani ranks third, followed by Zack Stortini, whose low-event proclivities extend to having the fewest giveaways per hour on the squad. In the middle of the pack Ryan Stone has the highest events per hour in both categories, albeit in the fewest minutes of anybody on the list; he's good at getting the puck, not so good at hanging on to it.

At the other end of the chart are a couple guys in Ales Hemsky and Sam Gagner who handle the puck a lot and therefore have their share of giveaways, although both are disappointly weak on the defensive side of the puck, especially Gagner. Lagging behind them is J-F Jacques, as those who were subjected to watching him play might expect. Bringing up the very rear, though, is thecaptainethanmoreau, who is second worst on the club for giveaways per hour and dead last for takeaways. A checking line player who can't check? Ouch.

Conclusion: Takeaway/giveaway data is suspect at best, but has some validity in the context of a single team. With the exception of a couple of small sample size guys (notably Hemsky, Stone, possibly Pouliot), the above list of forwards does a reasonable job of identifying the guys who collect and protect the puck, and those who don't. Here's looking at you, Ethan.

* * *
EDIT: Here's the same list for defencemen. This includes the three guys who were traded at the deadline (shown in grey); the data supports some of the rationale for dumping at least two of those guys. I have lowered the threshold to 10+ GP so as to include early results of the new guys, although of course sample size is a particular issue.

Player  MP Gv Tk Tk:Gv Gv/60 Tk/60 Tk–Gv/60
Ladislav Smid 978 30 16 0.53 1.84 0.98 -0.86
Tom Gilbert 1672 69 32 0.46 2.48 1.15 -1.33
Ryan Whitney 302 10 3 0.30 1.99 0.60 -1.39
Sheldon Souray 837 48 28 0.58 3.44 2.01 -1.43
Lubomir Visnovsky 1183 60 29 0.48 3.04 1.47 -1.57
Jason Strudwick 1082 47 14 0.30 2.61 0.78 -1.83
Taylor Chorney 597 28 9 0.32 2.81 0.90 -1.91
Steve Staios 754 32 7 0.22 2.55 0.56 -1.99
Aaron Johnson 238 18 10 0.56 4.54 2.52 -2.02
Theo Peckham 241 10 1 0.10 2.49 0.25 -2.24
Denis Grebeshkov 1026 58 15 0.26 3.39 0.88 -2.51

On the blue giveaways are far more common than takeaways, to the point that a Tk:Gv ratio better than 0.5 is relatively decent, at least on this team. A little surprising to see Smid at the top, but he handles the puck both less often and more conservatively than some of the puck movers below him so has coughed the puck relatively infrequently. So far Johnson seems to be the Ryan Stone of the defence corps with high events per hour on both sides of the ledger; alarmingly so in the giveaway department, although it's a pleasant surprise to see anybody even close to, let alone ahead of, Sheldon Souray in the takeaway game. Early days of course, just 12 GP. Interesting that these two rank 1-2 on the club in both Gv and Tk, and that by eye both fit the mold of cycle-breaking "chaos" defenders.

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That’s not even the worst part about the Gv-Tk stat.

Edmonton has close to the same number of takeaways as Boston, Phoenix and Columbus have combined Gv & Tk. The Oilers are at 307 Tk, Boston is 310 Gv+Tk, Phoenix is 281 Gv+Tk and Columbus is 283 Gv+Tk.

There is absolutely no set standard across the board, because there is no way teams could possibly have less than an average of less than 2 Tk per game (Phoenix and CBJ are both well under that mark).

by dawgbone98 on Mar 30, 2010 8:29 AM MDT reply actions  

Yeah, I only listed a few of the “highlights” of the lack of conformity from one building to another. It’s terrible. So bad that I was going to pile on Ethan Moreau for having the worst stats in the entire Northwest but decided against it as comps across teams are pretty much entirely useless. I maintain that within teams they at are theoretically at least all judged by the same standards from night to night, so there is some useful if limited info there. But you have to look pretty hard for it.

Minor point: Phoenix and CBJ’s Gv stats are a little higher than 2 per home game cuz the divisor is ~41, not ~82. Still, when CBJ is around 3 Gv/home game and Edmonton is around 19, the utter lack of standardization is exposed. The NHL should be embarrassed. That said, there is a vast body of evidence that suggests the NHL does not embarrass easily.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

They might have more than 2 Gv/game at home, but I was looking at Tk in general ;)

The issue with team to team is that not everyone plays in the same games. I mean if you get 10 minutes in a low counting arena and 18 in a high, you’re affected more than someone who does the opposite.

Shots can be bad too, but not near the level that the RTSS ones are, and I think your RTSS numbers would be impacted more on the situation above than anything else.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 30, 2010 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

They might have more than 2 Gv/game at home, but I was looking at Tk in general ;)

Well, the 30th ranked squad, Boston, has 345 takeaways, which is 4.6/G. Still ridiculously smaller than NYI’s 11.4/G, but more than 2.

The issue with team to team is that not everyone plays in the same games. I mean if you get 10 minutes in a low counting arena and 18 in a high, you’re affected more than someone who does the opposite.

Agreed that RTSS is more volatile generally. By far the biggest factor however, is home scorer bias, so a given player “should” always have ~50% of his TOI there. Even road numbers are unreliable; a guy who misses a road trip to NYR and NYI will have lower road results than a guy who plays in those games though, and a division rival will have inflated numbers while the other conference will not.

Shots can be bad too,

Especially for situational players who might get lots of ice when protecting a lead but nailed to the bench when pressing to tie. Hard to imagine individual Corsi isn’t impacted by role within game state.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 10:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

bq.Well, the 30th ranked squad, Boston, has 345 takeaways, which is 4.6/G. Still ridiculously smaller than NYI’s 11.4/G, but more than 2.

I’m an idiot… I was using the home as the total (that’s not even the 1st time I’ve done that either, I’m just blatantly stubborn).

bq.Agreed that RTSS is more volatile generally. By far the biggest factor however, is home scorer bias, so a given player "should" always have ~50% of his TOI there. Even road numbers are unreliable; a guy who misses a road trip to NYR and NYI will have lower road results than a guy who plays in those games though, and a division rival will have inflated numbers while the other conference will not.

I guess it depends on whether your home rink counts low or high. I mean if the difference between Edmonton and Columbus is ~27 (gv+tk) to ~7, it takes almost 4 games in Columbus to equal 1 in Edmonton. The difference between the Islanders and Columbus is ~31 to ~7. So if you have one guy on Columbus who missed games in Edmonton and Long Island, that’s the equivilant to 8 home games worth of RTSS.

In a purely Oilers bubble, you are correct. It’s worthwhile because the road numbers don’t impact as heavily as the home numbers on the overall total. Missing the one game in Columbus is almost a non-event in the grand scheme of things.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 30, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

damnit, forgot the space…

Well, the 30th ranked squad, Boston, has 345 takeaways, which is 4.6/G. Still ridiculously smaller than NYI’s 11.4/G, but more than 2.

I’m an idiot… I was using the home as the total (that’s not even the 1st time I’ve done that either, I’m just blatantly stubborn).

Agreed that RTSS is more volatile generally. By far the biggest factor however, is home scorer bias, so a given player “should” always have ~50% of his TOI there. Even road numbers are unreliable; a guy who misses a road trip to NYR and NYI will have lower road results than a guy who plays in those games though, and a division rival will have inflated numbers while the other conference will not.

I guess it depends on whether your home rink counts low or high. I mean if the difference between Edmonton and Columbus is ~27 (gv+tk) to ~7, it takes almost 4 games in Columbus to equal 1 in Edmonton. The difference between the Islanders and Columbus is ~31 to ~7. So if you have one guy on Columbus who missed games in Edmonton and Long Island, that’s the equivilant to 8 home games worth of RTSS.

In a purely Oilers bubble, you are correct. It’s worthwhile because the road numbers don’t impact as heavily as the home numbers on the overall total. Missing the one game in Columbus is almost a non-event in the grand scheme of things.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 30, 2010 2:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Next time I’m home sick, I’m just staying in bed… I completely misread your point.

Is it a bad time to push for an edit/delete of your own comments?

by dawgbone98 on Mar 30, 2010 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe if you hit “actions” you can then “delete” your post. No edit though.

by Scott Reynolds on Mar 30, 2010 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sccott beat me to it. If it’s just a minor edit, first of all copy your original post on to the clipboard, then hit “actions”/“delete”, then paste your original post onto a new comment form and edit from there. It’s cumbersome, but it works.

Hope you’re feeling better soon, Dawgbone.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 3:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Is that available to anyone other than admins? I’m pretty sure it isn’t.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Mar 30, 2010 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hmm, maybe not. When you hit the “actions” tab what do you get? I get “Rec”, “Flag” and “Delete”. I know you readers can “Rec” stuff, but what can’t you do? I assumed you’d be able to delete your own comments.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

When I hit actions on my own comment, the link disappears. When I hit it on another persons post, it gives me the option to rec or flag.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 31, 2010 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wow the top two for the Oilers are a surprise to me. esp the second name there. Next time i will look more closely when Pouliot is playing

by SumOil on Mar 30, 2010 8:39 AM MDT reply actions  

I’m less surprised, esp. by #1. By way of comparison, here are the leaders among Oiler forwards in 2008-09 (expressed simply as a Tk:Gv ratio, min. 20 GP):

Pisani 1.33
Cole 1.21
Brodziak 1.03
Horcoff 0.87
Pouliot 0.78

Brain trust saw fit to dump Cole and Brodziak; the other three are the top three this year.

And here are the leaders for 2007-08:

Reasoner 1.32
Stoll 1.11
Sanderson 1.11
Brodziak 0.97
Pisani 0.91
Horcoff 0.90

… and of course management saw fit to dump Reasoner and Stoll. Any wonder the Oilers are no longer much good at puck battles? We keep trading our best guys.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

2006-07

Reasoner 1.21
Pisani 1.10
Horcoff 0.96
Pouliot 0.87
Smyth 0.84

2005-06

Reasoner 1.00
Dvorak 0.96
Stoll 0.87
Peca 0.83
Smyth 0.82
Horcoff 0.69
Pisani 0.66

These seem to be fairly repeatable results, with the leaderboard dominated by responsible two-way players every year. (Smytty? check. Dvorak? check. Peca? check.) The ones who remain, Horcoff, Pisani, and Pouliot, are still good at it, but Oilers have done a poor job obtaining new guys who are hard on the puck. Or so says my eye, and so agree these Gv:Tk ratios. So maybe these stats are useful for context despite their obvious shortcomings.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

yeah you are so right! i am appalled by our talent retention of 2 way players. My dream off-season signing is colby armstrong lol.

by SumOil on Mar 30, 2010 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

holy attrition. i guess you can’t accuse oilers management of being inconsistent.

by Passive Voice on Mar 30, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

This seems like a relevant place to repost my correlation of hits vs. points percentage from this past summer.

Until there’s some measure of consistency in the way these stats are counted, they’re no use to me. (Aside: was it Gabe or Contrarian that showed the NHL’s shot distances are determined by rolling a d20?)

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Mar 30, 2010 10:26 AM MDT reply actions  

That’s good stuff, Doogie, thanks for sharing. I’m not surprised that Hits:Wins have no correlation; for starters, the hitters usually don’t have the puck. Same with the shot blockers.

If I were to do study hits v. wins, I would look at individual game sheets and tabulate results for “Outhit/outhit by” in a similar manner that NHL.com does for outshooting. I would be very surprised if the correlation was much more than random. Not saying hitting isn’t important – au contraire! – but not all hits are created equal, let alone counted equal.

As for Gv/Tk, I maintain they are slightly useful for establishing context within a team. Hard to look at five years of leaders among Oilers forwards and not conclude they do a half-decent job of identifying the two-way guys. Assuming Oilers are looking for some of those for the bottom 6 next year, there’s no way I would look at the league leaders and say “Kyle Okposo is in the top 5 in the NHL for takeaways ! ! ! 1 ! 1” or “Rob Schremp has a better Tk:Gv ratio than anybody on the Oilers, what a mistake ! ! ! 1 ! eleven !”, but I might look at the Islanders RTSS page and note that Sean Bergenheim has the best Tk:Gv ratio on the team by a wide margin and the most Tk/60 while ranking well down the list of Gv/60 and conclude that here is a player who is hard on the puck. Which if you’re looking to (finally!!) replace Marty Reasoner, is a worthwhile piece of information. Not the be-all and end-all, but a start. Then I’d find his home/road splits to see if the home scorer really likes this guy for some reason, and then I’d scout the shit out of game tapes.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

Upon further reflection, it’s sort of hard to get much of a take-home message from that, because of how bloody inconsistent hits are from year to year and rink to rink (and likely, scorer to scorer within that). There’s a 96.1% chance the results since the lockout (% of league average hits vs. % of points obtained) are due to randomness and/or measurement error: how much of that is measurement error, I wonder? Maybe a little, maybe a lot. I concluded last year that if you’re a good team, you’re probably a good team regardless of how much or how little you hit (within NHL standards), and ditto for bad teams, but I wonder about that conclusion now.

As for outhitting, that’s a good alternative/follow-up. I agree, the results will probably be pretty similar, given that you’re working with the same shitty numbers: very minor association before the lockout, birdshot after, and nothing anywhere near statistical significance. But I’m lazy, and not willing to go through eight (now nine!) seasons of game sheets, nor do I have a script to do that. So let Vic or Gabe or someone else tackle it. ;)

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Mar 30, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with your conclusion, Bruce, and good work.

I’ve never given a moment to looking at these stats, because I thought they were useless, for reasons you’ve pointed out. But the team rankings may have some merit.

If the NHL is going to do subjective stats-keeping, not an easy thing to do, it needs to up its game, bring these scorekeepers together to work on definitions and consistency.

The NBA does much better with assists, I do believe, but still has something of this same problem.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Mar 30, 2010 10:41 AM MDT reply actions  

For a player who hits as much as Jacques, his low number of takeaways is astonishing. I guess he’s so busy crushing guys that he forgets the puck.

And good to see Stortini doing well in the team rankings. Sme folks have always seen him as a respectable and smart defensive player, so it’s no massive surprise.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Mar 30, 2010 10:45 AM MDT reply actions  

No surprise to me re: JFJ, whose puck sense is very low indeed. I’m not sure they ever score a hit and a takeaway on the same play, or even a hit and a giveaway for that matter (which by eye is the more common outcome of a good hit). I can’t say as I’ve ever studied the play-by-play sheets close enough to look for simultaneous events.

As for Stortini, no surprise here. He’s always been pretty good about not coughing the puck, when he does have a problem it’s in not receiving the pass in his end which isn’t scored a giveaway. But he has massively improved in this respect. His takeaway numbers are also small but improving; he’s winning way more 50/50 puck battles but those aren’t really takeaways. Generally when he arrives second to the puck his options are hit/contain/engage, with only door #3 apt to yield the occasional takeway. Whereas for JFJ the options are seemingly hit/hit/hit.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

There’s really no excuse for not having a standard for giveaways and takeaways.

For instance, if you make a bad pass in the neutral zone that ends up in the other teams end where they get possession, that’s a giveaway.

Aside from a dump and change, any change of possession should be scored a giveaway. A takeaway occurs when you take the puck away (as opposed to the outcome I listed above).

That would be a far more useful piece of information.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 30, 2010 2:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree there should be a standard. However I disagree with you that every change of possession is a giveaway. To me the distinction is a change of zone, e.g. a shoot-in isn’t a giveaway, nor a dumpout into the neutral zone. If it forces the other guys to regroup as opposed to directly counter attack it is a much lesser offence if not an actual strategy to give up possession.

But there is no effin’ reason why Edmonton should have 6X the number of giveaways as Columbus. We don’t suck that bad, and last time I checked the BJs weren’t exactly competing for the Stanley Cup either. As stated above the NHL should be embarrassed by its amateur hour efforts here.

By way of comparison, Dawgbone, I noticed you filled in for Dennis a couple times on the scoring chance project. As I recall your numbers were a little lower than his – maybe more exacting standards, maybe you just happened on a low event game or two – but still in the same ballpark. What I value most from Dennis’s work is the for/against ratios, which should allow a little leeway for different scorers, as long as they are self-consistent. But there’s no bloody way 2 thinking people would score scoring chances differently by a factor of 6X.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Mar 30, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree there should be a standard. However I disagree with you that every change of possession is a giveaway. To me the distinction is a change of zone, e.g. a shoot-in isn’t a giveaway, nor a dumpout into the neutral zone. If it forces the other guys to regroup as opposed to directly counter attack it is a much lesser offence if not an actual strategy to give up possession

I don’t consider a quick chip or a dump out ot be a possession… i.e. you have the puck and we battle and I get it for a second and flip it out of the zone. But a shoot-in where the other team gains possession is a turnover in my books. You had the puck, now the other team has it. The good thing is if you get it back that’s another turnover (this time for you). It would give you a lot more events. Like I said, the time I wouldn’t consider the shoot-in a loss of possession is if you changed after the dump in.

By way of comparison, Dawgbone, I noticed you filled in for Dennis a couple times on the scoring chance project. As I recall your numbers were a little lower than his – maybe more exacting standards, maybe you just happened on a low event game or two – but still in the same ballpark.

I had to adjust to his definition of a scoring chance… we had different interpretations. For instance if a defenceman had to make a diving poke check to stop a breakaway I consider that a scoring chance… Dennis didn’t. Same with a blocked shot. A sliding block to stop a sure-goal (think Smid a few times) is a scoring chance in my books but not in Dennis’s. I adjusted to his to keep it more inline, so there were probably some things I didn’t log which Dennis might have. Though that one Minnesota game I did was a complete snore-fest.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 31, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

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  6. Phoenix Coyotes (20-15, .571)
  7. Nashville Predators (18-14, .563)
  8. Chicago Blackhawks (21-19, .525)
  9. Colorado Avalanche (16-19, .457)
  10. Dallas Stars (18-22, .450)
  11. Anaheim Ducks (14-19, .424)
  12. Edmonton Oilers (18-25, .419)
  13. Calgary Flames (13-21, .382)
  14. Columbus Blue Jackets (14-31, .311)
  15. Minnesota Wild (8-22,.267)

Eastern Conference

  1. Pittsburgh Penguins (31-13, .711)
  2. Boston Bruins (27-11, .711)
  3. New York Rangers (25-16, .610)
  4. Philadelphia Flyers (21-17, .553)
  5. New Jersey Devils (18-16, .529)
  6. Ottawa Senators (19-17, .528)
  7. Washington Capitals (20-19, .513)
  8. Montreal Canadiens (16-19, .457)
  9. Winnipeg Jets (15-19, .441)
  10. Buffalo Sabres (14-18, .438)
  11. Carolina Hurricanes (13-17, .433)
  12. Florida Panthers (14-19, .424)
  13. Toronto Maple Leafs (17-24, .415)
  14. New York Islanders (8-23, .258)
  15. Tampa Bay Lightning (10-30, .250)

Division Standings

  1. Central (79-58, .577)
  2. Atlantic (68-50, .576)
  3. Pacific (62-54, .534)
  4. Northeast (69-65, .515)
  5. Northwest (49-69, .415)
  6. Southeast (51-81, .386)


Managing Editor

Kurri_small Derek Zona

Laraque_horcoff_250x360_small Scott Reynolds

Columnists

Batman_small ryanbatty

0615pisani_small dawgbone98

Neal_small Neal Livingston

Mike_small Mike Wntrz

Small Alan Hull

Contributors

Newtwitter2_small Jonathan Willis

Mccurdycloseup_small Bruce McCurdy

Esaandstanley_small Benjamin Massey

Me_smyth_bobblehead3__1_of_1__small Lisa McRitchie

Small Triumph44

Gyi0062208469-bobrovsky_small Chase W

Small JaredL