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Groupthink, Confirmation Bias, Hockey Fans And Microstats

One of my first stops every morning is Economist Robin Hanson's blog Overcoming Bias.  In Hanson's own words, the subject matter is "...honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future."  Hanson's depth of posting is impressive -- he discusses psychology, philosophy, economics, bias, fallacy, markets, science and the human condition.  One of his posts from last year has stuck with me for awhile now as it applies to most things we discuss on a daily basis.  The post, "Who Will Fight Group Think", does not discuss hockey, but it has an over-reaching message that applies to most of the subjects written about here and elsewhere throughout the Oilogosphere.

Hanson quotes Nickolas Wade from TierneyLab discussing Groupthink:

Conformity and group-think are attitudes of particular danger in science, an endeavor that is inherently revolutionary because progress often depends on overturning established wisdom

Vic Ferrari has talked about Roger Neilson's impact on coaching and the game in general.  Neilson was an innovator that turned the game on it's ear by tracking all of that stuff that was going on between goals and penalties.  While some, like the dashing Gabriel Desjardins of Behind The Net Hockey, argue that "hockey teams, by and large, do know what they are doing" (I have my doubts), hockey fans, on the other hand, are generally a clueless lot, especially when it comes to the inner-workings of the game. 

Star-divide

Most fans don't have access to the video libraries that NHL teams do, and even the fans that have DVR technology don't use it.  Fans, by and large, rely on what they see, and make snap decisions based on short bursts of data.  From the time that decision is made, a fan will see what they expect to see, that is, they begin to notice the events and data that confirm the observations that led to their conclusion.  They begin to seek new information to confirm their pre-existing bias, subconsciously ignoring the entire data set, especially the pieces that disagree with their conclusion.  In psychology and cognitive science, this is known as confirmation bias.

In the world of sports fans, confirmation biases abound.  It's impossible for individual fans to record, catalog, process, analyze and interpret the results of hundreds of independent events occurring constantly throughout a game, but it's much easier to pick out those events and sequences of events that support their conclusions.  Any hockey fan that has sat silently shaking their head while the crowd piles on an undeserving player recognizes this immediately.  It's a powerful psychological force, especially in a setting like sports.  Fans can confirm their biases for themselves and immediately fall back on thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of fellow fans to confirm what they already know.  This is the very foundation of groupthink:

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that can occur in groups of people. Rather than critically evaluating information, the group members begin to form quick opinions that match the group consensus.

Because it's impossible to critically evaluate those hundreds of independent events, fans end up rallying together in support of or against the lowest common denominator in observational terms.  And this is why statistics and the analysis of those statistics is crucial.  Statistics, at the lowest level, are simply a vast collection of events. Even though the fans' understanding and analysis of the game continues to grow (thanks to people like Vic, Gabe, JLikens and Tyler), there remains a vast majority of fans, people who know better and simple-minded folks that wallow in ignorance, sometimes willfully.  

Roger Neilson realized the observational shortcomings of hockey and moved to correct it.  Twenty years later we're beginning to advance the fan understanding of the game in the same way, and the biggest obstruction to the effort is groupthink.  However, as Hanson notes, it's not enough to simply tell the group that they are wrong:

But after 37 years, the group think idea is pretty well known.  The problem is that simply knowing that the group might be wrong is very different from knowing where in particular they are wrong.

Schremp_medium The "where in particular they are wrong" part is what leads to such concise breakdowns in the math and such detailed analysis of players, games and situations.  Why was Rob Schremp a bust?  Tyler found the answer in the math. Last year, even though Shawn Horcoff was being slagged on by the fans, he remained highly-effective.  What was behind that?  Vic found it in the math.  There seems to be a common complaint among those that rail against statistics as a primary tool of analysis in hockey - that statistics can be used to reach any conclusion and that the stats are being manipulated.  However, it's quite the contrary.  With each of these posts, the author, be it JLikens, Tyler, Jonathan Willis, Vic, Scott or myself, explains the methodology he used to do his analysis and is open to debate and questions at any time.  Contrast that with the opposing argument:  "it is so because I saw it, and my observations are correct."  In the world of logic, that's called Begging The Question.  There is no way to prove it is so, there is no way to test the hypothesis, the argument is based solely on the confirmation bias of the person making the point.  Which is more scientifically valuable?  Which is more valuable to advancing the understanding of the game?  Which is more predictive?

One other groupthink complaint towards the "statheads" is that they "hide behind the math" and "band together" in a form of their own groupthink.  Someone that uses the math of hockey to set make a point or write an article isn't hiding behind anything, because from above, their methodologies are out in the open for public consumption.  And if "banding together" were true, then how do you explain something like the public opinion of Dustin Penner?  I didn't set out to prove the microstats guys wrong when I penned the Amicus Brief In Support Of Dustin Penner, I wrote it because I was hearing through the media and reading on the internet from even the "mathheads" like RiversQ, Tyler, Vic and Jonathan  what a terrible player he was, which contradicted everything my eye was seeing. I argued the point at Lowetide's place for a long time before giving up.  The groupthink was too strong.  So I started digging through the underlying stats and found that he was a microstat star, and that he was, in fact, an extremely valuable player.  Nine months later and among that group, the opinion on Penner is still split.

Hanson also notes another problem in fighting groupthink:

Far more people like to complain about groupthink when they think their contrarian ideas neglected,

I had this complaint about Penner and overcame the bias by doing the work behind the counterargument. David Staples at The Cult Of Hockey has been railing against Corsi's usefulness for quite some time, and while I disagree with him, and the math, in many different forms, has thus far agreed that he's barking up the wrong tree, Corsi is the strongest indicator of possession, zone time and winning.  But David attempts to do the work behind his argument rather than railing against the groupthink argument, and I give him credit for that - it's more than most people are willing to do.

What we do here, what JLikens does at Objective NHL, what Tyler does at MC79hockey, what Vic and Rivers do at Irreverent Oil Fans, what the Contrarian Goaltender does at Brodeur Is A Fraud isn't new.  Roger Neilson was doing the same thing twenty years ago and Kevin Constantine was doing it ten years ago.  What these people do is attempt to bring a deeper understanding to the game we all love.  Unlike a methodology that diminishes or outright ignores the value of statistics in establishing a point of view on a player, team or game, a methodology that values statistical analysis creates a point of view more open to being molded or challenged based on logical arguments from an established set of data.  The "saw-him-good" crowd makes these judgments in the same way, but without tracking the information on which they base their opinions.  Sometimes (even most times) these observations will be correct, but when a mistake is made, there is almost no way for an outside observer to effectively challenge what someone has seen with his own eyes, especially since, most times, he's not open to having that opinion truly challenged.  When worse comes to worse, the fall-back becomes an individual data-set that no one can challenge instead of the group data-set that helps members in the discussion to become - at least a little bit - more objective.  Statisticians make mistakes like anyone else, but when you have the numbers and an established methodology staring you in the face it's a lot easier to correct them.

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Speaking of which “groupthink” is going to figure prominently in my Flames post-mortems…

by Kent Wilson on Mar 29, 2010 12:01 PM MDT reply actions  

I can’t wait to see them.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

May I ask what, if anything, prompted this? It’s beautiful.

by Passive Voice on Mar 29, 2010 12:09 PM MDT reply actions  

I’ve had the post simmering in my brain for awhile now because of people like Robin Brownlee, the overriding sentiment on Dustin Penner and the attacks on Shawn Horcoff, but I only put a few pieces of it together in my mind. I hadn’t really put pen to paper until this weekend when we get the Cherry statement about Corsi. At the same time I’ve been in an email debate with a reader over Robert Nilsson’s usefulness and the madness of crowds just gave me the impetus to start writing.

Thanks for the sentiment, by the way.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great work.

I have to admit I’ve been on the opposite end of your Dustin Penner situation with James Wisniewski. People love him, and I can’t explain to them why he’s not a Top 4 defenseman on most NHL teams. I would love to have statistics related to my specific observations: number of turnovers from telegraphed shots and passes, number of times hobbled, number of times he pinched when four players were below the hashmarks, number of forwards that regained the puck because he didn’t pin them to the boards when they carried in etc. And that’s all before we get into the more intricate decision-making involved in playing defense. But I guess, if the NHL is ever at a point where it’s tracking those kinds of metrics, we’ve probably entered an armageddon of offensive-defensemen, some sort of Attack of the Ozolinsh Clones

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Mar 29, 2010 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

The best place to start is with the standard microstats. I’d read a dossier on Wisniewski.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 8:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, he does play in the Top 4 with guys who are happy to cover for him, and he doesn’t always get punished for his mistakes. But any Chicago fan would tell you that even in the bottom pair, he had the decision making of McMurphy at the end of One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. If I assembled the numbers, even compared him to Festerling and Eminger, who Niedermayer has sheltered this season, people would just point to the offense. And that worked for the early years of Ozolinsh’s career, so I’m just going to wait it out. When he stops scoring, blocking shots and generally endearing himself to fans, the groupthink will turn on him. Muhuhahahahaha

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Mar 31, 2010 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is outstanding
he had the decision making of McMurphy at the end of One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

That’s well done.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 31, 2010 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wow.

I usually post at Japers’ Rink, but I had to join your site just to tell you how awesome this post is.

Sometimes (even most times) these observations will be correct, but when a mistake is made, there is almost no way for an outside observer to effectively challenge what someone has seen with his own eyes, especially since, most times, he’s not open to having that opinion truly challenged. When worse comes to worse, the fall-back becomes an individual data-set that no one can challenge instead of the group data-set that helps members in the discussion to become – at least a little bit – more objective. Statisticians make mistakes like anyone else, but when you have the numbers and an established methodology staring you in the face it’s a lot easier to correct them.

Truly awesome summation. Excellent, excellent work.

There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.

by D'ohboy on Mar 29, 2010 12:23 PM MDT reply actions  

Thank you for joining and thanks for the kind words.

Truly awesome summation. Excellent, excellent work.

I can’t lie, I had help in the summation. Both Scott and Ben helped to write it because I got to the end and my summary was disjointed. They nailed it.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

NERDS!!!

You’re ruined baseball. Now you’re going to try to ruin hockey too?

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Mar 29, 2010 12:25 PM MDT reply actions  

I shall do my best, sir.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great post Derek.

Extremely well said.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Mar 29, 2010 12:39 PM MDT reply actions  

Thank you. It’s much-appreciated.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice work D.

If I didn’t know you better, you’d be my idol.

Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay

by George E. Ays on Mar 29, 2010 2:05 PM MDT reply actions  

Let’s not go nuts, now. I’m just stating the obvious here, you know, without the heated message board debate to serve as a backdrop and eliminate any possibility of making a point.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting post

Yes, I certainly know what you mean by GroupThink.

In your world, the GroupThink is the “seen him good” crowd.

From my own perspective, on the stats-loving Oilogosphere, I tend to see GroupThink in the “good Corsi means good player” faction, a group of ferocious and smart commentators if there ever was one.

Look out Don Cherry! Keep your head up!

I should also say, I think the work you guys are doing is provocative and useful. I know I’m a critic of a stat like Corsi plus/minus, and I argue incessantly that applying team plus/minus stats to individual players is fraught with peril.

Nonetheless, I acknowledge that some of these stats (QualComp) have won me and others over, and that others still might.

All this data mining and stat creation may turn out to be a dead end, it may turn out to be a great way to evaluate players, or it may turn out to lead us all to a far better way to evaluate players.

It has certainly pushed me to think hard about how I evaluate players and to raise my level of effort. Most of all, it’s made me realize just how inadequate, imprecise, unfair and inaccurate the current official stats are, and that all kinds of information needs to be collected if we’re going to properly map out with statistics the real territory of a hockey game.

I think this effort is where baseball was in the early 1980s, certainly before work started to be done on collecting defensive, fielding stats, which took an army of observers to start tracking games and recording their observations in a systematic fashion.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Mar 29, 2010 2:43 PM MDT reply actions  

Yes, I certainly know what you mean by GroupThink.

In your world, the GroupThink is the "seen him good" crowd.

From my own perspective, on the stats-loving Oilogosphere, I tend to see GroupThink in the "good Corsi means good player" faction, a group of ferocious and smart commentators if there ever was one.

I don’t think you finished reading my article.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 8:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

“All this data mining and stat creation may turn out to be a dead end”

I guess I’m not sure why you would say that. NHL teams have a ton of employees who watch video and record on-ice events. They put all of this info in a database. Where Corsi comes in is in evaluating players who aren’t on your team, or if you haven’t watched all of the video yet. But we already know that this “stat creation” is essentially the way things are run in the NHL.

Here’s what I said when you interviewed me about this back in 2008:

“I think one of the first simple steps is puck possession and passing. This is already done in the NBA often just by watching footage, so there’s no reason to think it can’t be done for the NHL. Then we can ask simple questions: right now, unless people follow a team closely, they probably don’t know who carries the puck. We don’t know which teams are best at breaking out. Which defensemen can pass. We’d have a lot to talk about once we had this data, just like we did ten years ago when we first got shot blocking data. Long-term, I don’t see why we can’t have real-time information on where every player is and where the puck is at all times. Then we’re not really talking about statistical analysis in the traditional sense anymore – we’ve moved on to quantitative scouting and aggregation of scouting data.”

I think I’m arguing for a system that takes the responsibility for “seeing him good” out of our fallible eyes and puts it in the computer’s hands. Corsi is making the best of the data that we have at our disposal; it matches up very well with observed scoring chances.

by Hawerchuk on Mar 30, 2010 12:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

Tub-thumping.

I would also point out that a guided, directed, systematic “saw him good, but took detailed notes” method (true plus/minus) was also pretty effective at identifying Penner’s real value as a player, very early on in that debate, if I do say so myself.

http://communities.canada.com/EDMONTONJOURNAL/blogs/hockey/archive/2009/02/02/with-all-due-respect-penner-ain-t-the-problem.aspx

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Mar 29, 2010 3:14 PM MDT reply actions  

I think that “a guided, directed, systematic ‘saw him good, but took detailed notes’ method” is exactly what Derek is calling for. That kind of methodology is when statistics work best because they serve as a check on our observations and maybe point us to look at the game differently. Watching the games closely can also inform the statistical analysis because when an important skill is being missed in the stats, we can look for a way to quantify it as you’ve tried to do in the past with your “error” and “unofficial assist” statistics. In the article you’ve linked you’ve used a lot of statistical measures to defend your position (which is a great thing). That’s not what people are talking about when they talk about the “saw him good” scouting. Incidentally, my favourite point in your piece, given your self-described Corsi unbelief, is this one:

There are few stats to measure defensive play, but one way to measure it is to look at territorial play and whether or not Penner is the type of player who tends to get the puck out of his own end and into the other team’s end.

When Penner is on the ice, the Oilers direct far more shots at the other team’s net than are directed at the Oilers’ net, a strong indicator of territorial advantage in the Oil’s favour when Penner is out there. In fact, only Hemsky has a better record Hemsky than Penner in this regard.

Anyway, the point is that it’s not either statistics or watching games. It’s both hand-in-hand and letting them inform one another.

by Scott Reynolds on Mar 29, 2010 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ah, but in those days, when I wrote that, I must say I was more open to the claims of Corsi. For instance, it was before the Patrick O’Sullivan trade ….

Of course, one issue with the O’Sullivan trade, and is great Corsi number on the Kings, was that few of us had seen much of him. Maybe if we had, his Corsi number would have been quickly discounted ….

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Mar 29, 2010 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Your point about O’Sullivan and Corsi is downright odd. O’Sullivan scored 0.63 point per game in his last two years with the Kings. That’s a pretty good number. His performance with the Oilers has been much worse. Should we then conclude that points per game isn’t useful when trying to determine individual performance? Of course not, but it seems like you’re making that kind of claim to dismiss Corsi. It’s crazy (and lazy).

The real problem, of course, is that no one stat tells the whole story. A positive Corsi number in one season does not make a good player and I really don’t know who you think uses the stat in this way. People do use it as an indicator of good or poor play and I think that’s reasonable but just like any other stat, you need a whole lot more to fill out the picture.

Let’s take a closer look at O’Sullivan. Over his last two years in L.A. he only had a positive Corsi number in one of them so already we know he’s not some Corsi superstar. In 2007-08 he posted a substantially negative Corsi (-139). So right there you have a warning flag about his good number in 2008-09.

And what about that positive number in 2008-09? Well, he did spend a huge amount of his ice time that season with Anze Kopitar and I think we both know which of those two is the better player. O’Sullivan had a Corsi of +116 with Kopitar and +39 without him so it would seem to me that O’Sullivan benefited from that partnership (Kopitar was +63 away from O’Sullivan). He also benefited from starting quite a bit in the offensive zone which, hopefully, we can agree will drive your Corsi rate higher than it would be otherwise. Unless the Oilers were going to play the guy with Hemsky in offensive situations, expecting him to duplicate his stats (be they goals, points, Corsi or whatever) was a bit of a fool’s errand.

I’ll admit that I’ve been surprised in a bad way by O’Sullivan’s play but it’s not as though there weren’t some warning signs before he got here. All Corsi was telling us with O’Sullivan last season was that the puck was in the right end of the rink with him out there and that the Kings were generating shots toward the net. That’s it. Now, one possible conclusion is that O’Sullivan is a really good hockey player but there are a lot of others as well (his linemates are good, his competition is bad, he gets to start there a lot, he had a nice run of sixty games but he’s playing over his head and on and on). Just because the correct conclusion in this instance wasn’t “O’Sullivan is a really good hockey player” that doesn’t make Corsi – or points per game for that matter – unhelpful in evaluating individual performance. It just means that you can’t use it by itself which was already dead obvious anyway.

by Scott Reynolds on Mar 29, 2010 6:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good post.

Problem is that “seen him good” guy is still better at predicting performance the stat guy. Advanced stats as they exist today are very blunt and are limited significantly by the quality of the data they are dependent on and their inability to isolate individual performance from group performance.

I’ll admit that if you take all advanced stats together, you get a pretty good feel for what role a player is being used in and a general idea of their individual performance, but this assessment pails in comparison to what a sophisticated “seen him good” guy who watches every game would come up with. Until that gap is bridge, advanced stats will be of little value beyond creating imprecise parameters of a performance.

While advanced stats are somewhat valuable for comparing players who play the same kind of minutes (type of minutes, against who, starting position ect.), they are of little use comparing players who don’t have similar roles on a team.

Statheads also like to overweight skills they can measure, while ignoring things they can’t. Just because something cannot be accurately and objectively measured doesn’t mean it should be disregarded. However, this is what staheads routinely do. If I can measure it, it matters. If I can’t it doesn’t. Unfortunately, the real world is a little more complicated than that, and any sophisticated hockey fan should be able to come up with numerous examples of “value added actions” of a player during a game that are never measured or captured in advanced stats.

by mclea on Mar 29, 2010 3:21 PM MDT reply actions  

I guess my question is then: how do we avoid wandering into the land of baseless assertions?

“I think that guys who talk in between whistles inspire their teammates and annoy their opponents. There is value to that, but stats don’t capture it.”

Really? People can posit stuff like this all you want, but until they prove it to me, I’m free to disregard it. To put it another way, how do we intelligently discuss stuff that either isn’t or can’t be “objectively measured”?

In the end, there’s no question that we are trying to capture and predict what is a fairly complex, chaotic system involving dozens of variable. The tools we have now certainly aren’t a perfect reflection of reality. And perhaps they never will be. But I think we should avoid making the perfect the enemy of the good.

by Kent Wilson on Mar 29, 2010 7:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

How do you weed these guys out from all the other noise though?

For instance, at one point earlier in the year, Tyler posted this on his site: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=3279#more-3279

I also posted something similar at HF (a couple of weeks later, with different games). It got ridiculed to no extent (though no one took the time to actually go through the videos to challenge the point).

The astute hockey observers that you are talking about are few and far between, most of them too busy being employed in hockey to bother posting on message boards.

by dawgbone98 on Mar 29, 2010 7:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Problem is that "seen him good" guy is still better at predicting performance the stat guy.

I’m sorry, but I need to see proof of this before I accept it. Do you have any?

Most of the seen him good guys that I’ve read and know of have just as many egregious misses as they do big hits.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

one new member, and one rec. kudos for the succinct explanation, but also for the outstanding collection of links.

by Natty Bumppo on Mar 29, 2010 5:27 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks for joining, Natty.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is a pretty awesome article Derek

Cheers, Complaints, homerism and bashing of mediocre pop musicians in 140 Characters
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Mar 29, 2010 5:37 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks, SW. I’m glad people are finding worth in it.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yea. John Fischer wrote an article about groupthink and Devils fans, and had some of the ILWT community talk about common thoughts Devils fans have. That’s how I ended up finding this article to begin with too

Cheers, Complaints, homerism and bashing of mediocre pop musicians in 140 Characters
"DO NOT get stuck behind Kyle Wellwood in the buffet line. This isn't really etiquette, but it will prevent you from starving to death"- Down Goes Brown on Etiquette for Jason Spezza's wedding

by Kevin Sellathamby on Mar 30, 2010 6:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

John’s article was very well done.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 30, 2010 6:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is my second post to the CnB forums; that the first was because of the Sawchuk poems and the second because of this piece says something about my relationship to the game.

I abandoned hockey as a teenager, and came back because of the incredible story of the ’06 cup run. The excitement of an underdog team coming back to push the final game was irresistible.

This season has been a little different, and I found CnB trying to understand why it was just so damned bad. For me, the failure of this year led me to try and understand the game.

It’s an odd place to be, trying to balance the story with the stats. I take some pleasure in seeing that my support of Penner and Horcoff may not have been without merit, and was happily corrected on Hemsky, having thought him overvalued. At the same time, I’m trying to integrate this with my enjoyment of the story of the game.

Then again, that tension probably says something about the sport as well. I have to thank all of the CnB bloggers for bringing story, understanding and a lot of enjoyment to a season that must have been harder to write about than it was to watch.

by eddy the lip on Mar 29, 2010 8:40 PM MDT reply actions  

Eddy, thanks for reading and posting. We’re all humbled that you’d consider C&B a resource for understanding the game in a different light. I hope that we continue to provide you the articles to expand your interest.

I have to thank all of the CnB bloggers for bringing story, understanding and a lot of enjoyment to a season that must have been harder to write about than it was to watch.

At times it’s really easy to write about because the emotional reactions of a fan can lead to some real creativity. On the other hand, it’s been difficult because ‘Oh no! We Suck again!’ gets tiresome and tedious.

Thanks for reading and commenting. I’m glad that you’re finding usefulness in what we do.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

All seriousness aside…Corsi is the biggest argument winner. Whenever i am having an arguement with a couple of people about a player and as soon as i drop the word corsi, everyone shut up, let me speak and then go back to doing what they were doing before.

by SumOil on Mar 29, 2010 8:46 PM MDT reply actions  

sure, but now don cherry’s ruined that for us :D

by Passive Voice on Mar 29, 2010 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Don Cherry is so wrong this time! I have generally defended him but this time i have to say he is being extremely ignorant.

by SumOil on Mar 29, 2010 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

to be fair, Maclean kinda put that whole thing on a tee for him (“Balls is last in the whooooole league! Roll the clip!”), which is sorta weird because Ron’s always struck me as sympathetic towards the “advanced” (or whatever) stats idea.

I’m guessing it was some HNIC producer who figured that this week’s segment needed something to send Cherry off the deep end. Presumably next week they’ll dredge up something that shows, like, Max Talbot in a negative light out of context and dump in its mouth.

by Passive Voice on Mar 29, 2010 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

meh that kind of shit doesnt bother me. People who snub them are the ones who are either afraid of change or ignorant to details. I dont want to give those people any of my time. If a person wants to get into a discussion of the merit of the stats, then i am all ears. However, if someone calls it stupid and people who use them as dumb, then he is just being an arrogant, blind fool.

by SumOil on Mar 29, 2010 9:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

I fell in love with ‘advanced stats’ after the amicus brief. I was one of the few people who had been defending Penner all of last season. I was a ‘saw him good’ guy. But i have to admit, it feels a lot better to be able to see the stats and evaluate the situation. I started out reading coppernblue sometime in summer last season when JW was the sole writer here. I have to say that from a hockey fan point of view, thats the best thing that has happened to me. Over the time it was as if re-discovering hockey from a whole new perspective. I used to be a frequent reader of edmontonsun and journal about hockey game reports and stuff. However after being a frequent reader of CnB and JW, i find those reports to be hollow. There is so much the naked eye misses. I have been trying to recruit my friends into following hockey through these stats. They are just awesome!
Someone mentioned earlier about how he put stuff up on HF boards and got flamed. Most hockey fans are still in the ‘dark age’ so to speak. and it will take time for others to catch on to this.
Great article there Derek. made my day

by SumOil on Mar 29, 2010 9:05 PM MDT reply actions  

I love dragging out a stats-based argument (although mine tend to be pretty skin-deep; basically I take whatever Gabe Desjardins gives (often without question; apparently the irony is lost on me)) on HF. Place is a zoo.

by Passive Voice on Mar 29, 2010 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t know if you’ve ever read any Taleb, but when it comes to signal to noise ratio, HF is about the worst that a person can find.

If you haven’t read Fooled By Randomness, I recommend you pick it up right away.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 9:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

that’s the Black Swan dude, right?

by Passive Voice on Mar 29, 2010 9:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Indeed it is. You’ve read The Black Swan?

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

unfortunately, i can’t say i have. i keep meaning to, but apparently i find my time better spent trolling HF.

i did read a biography (that’s not the word, but my brain’s apparently shut down right now) on him after hearing about the book, which I thought was awesome (not least because it introduced me to the term “fuck-off money”). very interesting guy.

by Passive Voice on Mar 29, 2010 10:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Do yourself a favor and get Fooled By Randomness. It’s not heavy stuff and can be read on a weekend day. It’s well worth it.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great article there Derek. made my day

Thank you, Sum. It’s always a pleasure to see your comments here. I can’t believe you continue to put up with us.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 9:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I can’t believe you continue to put up with us.

I will be here as long as the blog is!

by SumOil on Mar 29, 2010 9:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

well put

although i must point out the (irony?) of you writing a treatise on the perils of groupthink, followed by 44 comments from people telling you how awesome you are :)

A good PK is Club Truculence's cover charge

by pevans on Mar 29, 2010 10:19 PM MDT reply actions  

If you read the comments, two of them disagree with me, so there!

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Mar 29, 2010 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

awesome you are :)

Derek is awesome and so are his articles

by SumOil on Mar 29, 2010 10:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’ve been trying to find one more stats-focused hockey blog to follow for me and my “sophist” buddies at BN…and I think we found it. Great defense of the burgeoning hockey stat world…you’d net a solid Corsi rating.

Bettman's Nightmare: A Blog Where Hockey Aficionados Dismantle That Mighty Empire, One Balsillie at a Time

http://bettmansnightmare.blogspot.com/

by Bettman's Nightmare on Mar 30, 2010 12:11 AM MDT reply actions  

Great article.

Observation, statistics, witchcraft…it doesn’t matter to me how you chose to prove your point, as longs as:

1) Your argument is sound
2) You’re willing to have your mind changed.

Everyone seems to have the most trouble with 2.

by tatsuke on Mar 30, 2010 8:11 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Nice article, and I wish I read it two weeks ago so I could comment at that time. I do quibble with some of the points here.

I wrote it because I was hearing through the media and reading on the internet from even the “mathheads” like RiversQ, Tyler, Vic and Jonathan what a terrible player he was, which contradicted everything my eye was seeing.

I find this statement kind of silly, frankly. First of all, you’d be hard pressed to find any strong statements from Vic against Penner and secondly I think my arguments were a lot more nuanced than “Penner is a terrible player.” My problems with Penner have always been centered around value. I think there is a strong case to be made that in year 1 he did not cover the $4.25MM bet as an Oiler. He probably came darn close in year 2 and I think he has now surpassed the contract in year 3 where he now provides more value than he costs. He’ll probably blow it out of the water in year 4. If you don’t try to consider the progression and just take a snapshot early or later on in his Oiler career, you’ll have wildly different conclusions on Penner as a player and on the marginal benefit of the RFA signing to the franchise.

Actually I should have quoted your entire paragraph here because it really spits in the face of the best point you had in this post – confirmation bias abounds. By setting out to defend Penner, you made many of the same mistakes his detractors supposedly made. (I say supposedly because I think you unfairly grouped some of them and simplified the arguments of the rest.) This is something that’s easy to notice reading messageboards and blogs – we all have our favourites and our scapegoats to some degree. (Tyler mentioned something recently along these lines too – I think he said he just didn’t find this team likable on top of all the losing.) That constantly skews our analyses a little bit, but i think half the battle is being aware of it.

I think the term groupthink can be a convenient label in a lot of cases. Does Oiler fandom and the Oilogosphere engage in this a lot? Sure, probably. However, it’s also a little too easy to discredit a theory by using the label.

Lastly, I think tatsuke made a great point. If you really do let the data be your guide, you will have your mind changed. My latest personal example was for Penner during the big losing streak just after the new year. I was sure he was the suck during this streak, but I checked the underliers and he was still going along at a decent clip and well above his teammates. As always, your eyes will fool you and they certainly have fooled me many times.

by RiversQ on Apr 16, 2010 12:33 PM MDT reply actions  

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