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Edmonton's Top 25 Under 25: #8 Marc Pouliot

Meetings of the Marc Pouliot fan club, of late, have been lonely ones. The few of us remaining faithful gather around the hearth, drain a glass of sherry, and look back fondly upon the golden days. Remembering the time of yore, when trading down from Zach Parise to Pouliot and a second-rounder that became Jean-Francois Jacques was a vaguely defensible decision. In his draft year, Pouliot notched 73 points in 65 games with the pre-Crosby Rimouski Oceanic, leading the team in scoring by a handy thirty-three points and only being held back from even greater heights by an errant Dion Phaneuf elbow that scrambled Pouliot's eggs like a new cook at Smitty's. He was also -23, but on the 2002-03 Rimouski Oceanic that was pretty good! Seriously! That team, lest we forget, was 11-58-3.

Oh, but that Phaneuf thing. A nasty hit and probably a clean hit: the only clean hit Dion Phaneuf threw in his career, actually, when Phaneuf and Pouliot collided in the CHL Top Prospects game. In hindsight, Phaneuf turning Pouliot to tapioca that easily probably should have been a sign. But, flushed with excitement, we threw caution to the wind like it were prom night.

It didn't get much better for young Marc-Antoine, as we called him in those days. Oh, I mean, he played with Sidney Crosby and finished runner-up for the 2005 Memorial Cup. That was pretty good, I guess. But the injuries - heavens, the injuries.

We forget how many games Pouliot has played, sometimes. His first professional season, Marc Pouliot got in 73 combined professional games. The next year, it was 90. The year after, 79. He wasn't spending his nights in traction, by any means, but there was always some nagging thing with him that was keeping him from being one hundred percent, that was just this close to being completely healed and yet never was. There were preposterous injuries at the worst times, usually just as he was putting it together.

His first year, Pouliot played only eight regular season games, scored only one goal, but looked exceptional in a fourth-line role after the trade of Marty Reasoner to Boston. Then he got mononucleosis and missed the end of the year as well as the entire playoff run. Mononucleosis! The Oilers were so short on qualified centres that 71-year-old Rem Murray played twenty-four playoff games and Marc Pouliot was out with mono-fucking-nucleosis! You're telling me he couldn't have taken the load off of Brad Winchester (ten games, one admittedly awesome goal, and one squid) or Todd Harvey (ten games, take away everything awesome the Rifle did) or even Georges Laraque (fifteen games and I bet you forgot because Big Georges was completely invisible)? You're telling me things maybe don't turn out a little bit different for everyone?

Star-divide


RankPlayer DOBDraftedYearBen
Bruce
Derek
JonScott
8 Marc Pouliot
5/22/85
22 2003
5 10 8 12 9

An older, wiser Pouliot recovered from his mono to be the best player in his limited apperances with the 2006-07 Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins, a strong team shared with the Pittsburgh Penguins which ran a video game good centre ice combination of Pouliot, Kyle Brodziak, Ryan Stone, Rob Schremp, and Tyler Kennedy. Pouliot also played forty-six games in Edmonton and didn't look so good: eleven points from the fourth line, usually played out of position on the wing, only -2 on a Ryan Smyth Death March team without a lot of plusses, and an indignant response to Craig MacTavish's suggestion that maybe, just maybe, the defensively sound and offensively challenged Pouliot would be better off thinking of himself as Guy Carbonneau than Guy Lafleur.

So here we are. 2010. Since 2006-07, Pouliot has played 101 NHL games and 59 AHL games. He has scored 31 NHL points and 53 AHL points. One of those numbers is fantastic and the other one isn't impressing anybody. He's also been concussed a couple of times and missed most of this season with something called "pubitis". And right now you're picking up your monitor and shaking it and shouting that how, how, in God's name can a china statue like this possibly be the Oilers' #8 prospect?

Well, let me put it absolutely simple. What Pouliot does well is something almost no other Oilers forward can do. He outscores. He gets on the ice against another team's player and sometimes he scores and sometimes they score but, compared to his teammates, the former happens more than the latter. He also makes approximately minimum wage, is a restricted free agent at the end of the year, is a remarkably hard worker, and is still younger than you probably remember.

Let us take, for example, Gabe Desjardins and his statistical witchcraft. Go to http://www.behindthenet.ca and browse for a bit and you'll see a statistic named, rather obtusely, "Rating". What "Rating" is is the difference between a team's +/- per sixty minutes when a given player is off the ice and a team's +/- per sixty minutes when a given player is on the ice: basically, the difference the guy makes from what his team usually achieves.

Among Oilers to play double-digit games this year, the leader in "Rating" on the Oilers is precisely who you'd expect, Ales Hemsky with a +2.51. No prizes for guessing tail-end Charlie: Shawn Horcoff, -1.91. Ethan Moreau and Jason Strudwick are both well on the bad end of the ledger, guys like Ryan Stone and Sam Gagner are to the good. You pretty much get the results you'd expect.

Oh. I neglected to finish naming the Oilers' leaders in "Rating". Second is Dustin Penner, which isn't news to you I'm sure. Third is Marc Pouliot, which probably is. Marc Pouliot is +1.80. Lubomir Visnovsky is +1.00. Gilbert Brule is +0.66. Even the great Zach Stortini is only +1.06.

He's facing decent opposition, as teams try to get their best out against a line they perceive as weak: Pouliot's QUALCOMP is third among Oiler forwards behind Fernando Pisani and Horcoff. His teammates aren't bad (sixth among forwards) but they're not great either. His PDO of 987 sucks in general terms, although it's pretty average on the Oilers. He's not shooting the lights out but considering the team he's on and the fact that he had some disease unknown to man ravaging his crotch for half the season, he's not doing bad.

Now, I do have to ask you guys to remember something. These top 25 under 25 are all relative. When I say Marc Pouliot is the fifth-best prospect in the Oilers' system, that's not necessarily "Marc Pouliot is great" so much as "the guys behind him aren't necessarily all that good". Pouliot has all kinds of question marks about him. Health, obviously. Can he continue to improve? Can he develop his faceoff ability (50.4% this year is by no means bad and for an Oiler it's terrific, but in the wide world of the NHL it won't impress anybody)?

But there are also a lot fewer questions about him than, say, Patrick O'Sullivan or even Andrew Cogliano. Important questions, too, like "can he get results on a crappy team with crappy linemates?" and "is he capable of playing as an NHL forward without embarrassing himself no matter the situation?" and "if he had to win a faceoff and the fate of the world was at stake, would you try to max out your credit cards before the puck dropped?" There's a lot to be said for knowing what you're getting, and knowing that the worst case scenario is fifteen minutes of inoffensive, more-or-less even hockey and a fifty-fifty shot at every draw, because that's what he's already doing even in the midst of the Fall for Hall.

Marc Pouliot isn't a spectacular pick. But he's a safe one. Cheer up, buddy. There's really nothing wrong with being Guy Carbonneau.

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Wow.

I cannot believe this guy ranks ahead of Brule and O’Sullivan.

That’s just weird.

A posse ad esse.

The Copper & Blue|OilersNation|Hockey or Die!

Twitter: @JonathanWillis
Mail: jonathan.willis@live.ca

by Jonathan Willis on Feb 24, 2010 7:42 AM MST reply actions  

Also, I enjoyed the writeup.

A posse ad esse.

The Copper & Blue|OilersNation|Hockey or Die!

Twitter: @JonathanWillis
Mail: jonathan.willis@live.ca

by Jonathan Willis on Feb 24, 2010 7:44 AM MST up reply actions  

Pou

Really? Ahead of Brule and o’Sullivan? I realize he may outscore his opponents, but it must mean something when those opponents are 4th liners. yes he’s a good 4th line player, and maybe even a 3rd line player but no way (in my opinion) should he rank ahead of Brule or O’Sullivan. And Ben had him ranked 5th?? Is LT secretly running this site now?

by DBO on Feb 24, 2010 8:43 AM MST reply actions  

As one of the folks who would gladly take Pouliot ahead of either of the other guys, I think I should speak up.

First, the easy one. My personal opinion is that people are putting way too much stock in Brule’s numbers this season and not enough in his previous three when he was tracking even with or behind Pouliot. I have learned my lesson from Bruce and would compare Brule’s 20 y/o season with Pouliot’s 19 y/o season.:

Brule 20 / Pouliot 19 – Destoryed in NHL / Great QMJHL scorer
Brule 21 / Pouliot 20 – Destoryed in NHL / Pretty decent AHL rookie, NHL call-up
Brule 22 / Pouliot 21 – Decent AHL scorer / Better AHL scorer, AHL-NHL split
Brule 23 / Pouliot 22 – NHL player / AHL-NHL split

So I see Pouliot ahead in the first two years but I could see someone arguing that’s a split. The third year is a clear Pouliot win and in the fourth Brule is clearly ahead, though I’d be willing to bet some of that is the difference in waiver considerations. And as discussed below, there are some concerns with Brule’s success this year (he gets beat up without Penner by his side). I think Pouliot is flat-out the better player.

With O’Sullivan, I think the case is harder. In hindsight I should have probably given O’Sullivan more credit for what he’s established to this point in his career. I admit that I’ve “seen him bad” and that probably played into where I had him ranked. It’s a concern that he’s never posted positive EV results but I let his current season (i.e. his worst) sway my judgment of him as a player too much. Consider this an “I was wrong” on having O’Sullivan so far down the list.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 9:17 AM MST up reply actions  

I have learned my lesson from Bruce and would compare Brule’s 20 y/o season with Pouliot’s 19 y/o season.:

OK … I guess. The gap between them is closer to 5 months than the 1 month spread between Brule and POS that happened to straddle the deadline. But once you get up towards half a year the comp is not going to really work either way.

Right now today, Brule has just turned 23. He has played 206 NHL games. At a similar age Pouliot was entering the 2008-09 season with 78 NHL games under his belt. Even now, despite being almost 20 months older, Pouliot has 51 fewer NHL games than Brule. Yes I know about injuries, but so does Gilbert Brule know about injuries. I’m sure we can agree that CBJ did Brule no favours by bringing him right into the NHL as an underager, but if I’m picking between two prospects and one is both younger and has more NHL experience, that’s the horse I’m going to back. (See also: Stortini > Stone) Not saying I’m right, just that’s the basis for where I’m coming from.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 9:55 AM MST up reply actions  

But Brule was terrible in the vast majority of those NHL games. As in, T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E. They didn’t nothing but hinder his development as far as I’m concerned. I’m actually shocked you consider them a positive.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, it’s a double-edged sword for sure. Whatever, those games are in the experience bank. A lot of these guys get lit up for the first 150 or 200 games in this league and then start to make a more positive impact. I see Brule in this category for sure.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 1:29 PM MST up reply actions  

I just don’t see Brule’s first two NHL seasons as a better learning experience than Pouliot’s first two pro years which were spent largely in the AHL. He’s flat-out not a more experienced pro. Both guys needed to learn the game and both had some struggles as young pros. The one that learned in an environment where he could have some success shouldn’t be given a mark against him because the organization he plays for aren’t idiots.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 2:18 PM MST up reply actions  

the organization he plays for aren’t idiots.

You talking about the Oilers? Yours is a minority opinion these days, although I am in full agreement with you on these particular players. Those were the Doug MacLean days, were they not?

I just don’t see Brule’s first two NHL seasons as a better learning experience than Pouliot’s first two pro years which were spent largely in the AHL.

The only difference between Brule’s first two pro seasons and Pouliot’s is that Brule was 20 months younger when he started out. He eventually got sent back after 7 GP and two injuries, so it wasn’t a full pro season for him to say the least. Still, the argument could be made today that both are fifth-year pros. Brule has played about 50 more games in the NHL, Pouliot about 100 more in the AHL (153 to 55). Overall the experience gap is just 308 to 261 at the professional level, despite Brule’s relative youth. I’d say the age advantage is more significant than the experience advantage between these two fellows.

Moreover, Brule has put up better goals, assists and points in the current, unfinished season, than Pouliot ever has in the NHL. Maybe it’s noise or maybe it really is a steeper learning curve, but offensively Brule projects well ahead of Poo IMO. Marc’s advantages are on the defensive side of the puck. Unfortunately to best demonstrate and further develop that, one needs a long uninterrupted stretch of playing regularly, which Pouliot never has been able to achieve for various reasons.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 4:34 PM MST up reply actions  

They were indeed the Doug MacLean days in Columbus. My statement about the Oilers was too “blanketing” for sure but I think the way they’ve handled Pouliot has been fine. I completely agree about Brule having an age advantage but I definitely do not think that he has an experience advantage which it seemed like you were arguing earlier. In terms of his offensive potential, I’m not convinced they’re far apart. The junior numbers, at least offensively, are quite comparable as are their offensive numbers in minor pro. It’s true that Brule’s current season is very good offensively, but it’s the only one that’s clear. If he keeps it up (or better yet, keeps improving) over the next 100 or so games, I’ll obviously need to re-evaluate where he’s at. His last twenty games show three goals and two assists so he’s tailed off badly from a really good pace at the start of the year (21 points in 29 games). Of the 26 goals scored at EV while Brule has been on the ice he has points on 22 (85%) which is a very high number that’s likely to come down. A lot of the numbers are pointing me toward “lucky thirty games” for his offence. I do hope he’s a player, but I don’t believe it, if you know what I mean.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 5:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Even the great Zach Stortini is only +1.06.

“The great Zach Stortini” would carry the ring of authenticity if only you spelled Zack correctly. :) The silver lining from the black cloud that was the 2003 draft.

Seriously, I like Pouliot somewhat in a vanilla useful sort of way, but it has always been and remains exceedingly difficult to disentangle him from the outstanding players that were picked all around him. Still rankles that Lou Lamoriello of all people traded for our pick, then used it to draft a superstar. Still rankles that Vancouver took Kesler and Philadelphia Mike Richards in the picks immediately after Pouliot. A dozen guys from that first round are playing on their national teams at the Olympic F. Games, whereas Marc Pouliot is still on the cusp of maybe making the Edmonton F. Oilers.

It also still rankles that the Oiler brain trust attended the ‘03 Prospects Game and managed to identify the one guy on the ice who got his eggs scrambled right under their watchful eye. On draft day when Calgary picked Phaneuf all the highlight reels showed him clocking Pouliot in that game. Then when the Oilers picked Pouliot all the highlight reels showed him being clocked by Phaneuf, the newly minted Flame. I remember thinking "this can’t end well" but I have changed that somewhat to “this never will end, the guy is just going to keep teasing us until the end of time”.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 9:26 AM MST reply actions  

He spells it ‘Zachery’, not ‘Zackery’, so that always effs with me.

by Benjamin Massey on Feb 24, 2010 12:13 PM MST up reply actions  

I’d say Brule’s value is a second round pick, Pouliot’s closer to a fifth or sixth.

These ratings are crazy.

by Traktor on Feb 24, 2010 12:28 PM MST reply actions  

So we’re supposed to be rating guys on how overrated they are by the brain trust that is the collective community of NHL general managers?

by Benjamin Massey on Feb 24, 2010 12:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Again, at least for me, the measurement here isn’t “what would this guy net in a trade” but “how good at hockey is this player.” If it’s the former there’s an argument that O’Sullivan ought to be out of the top twenty-five altogether if you think his contract is a negative. So, again, these rankings are not based on asset value.

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 2:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Must be on some serious drugs...

… if you think Pouliot should rank ahead of Brule & O’Sullivan.

by RossCreek on Feb 24, 2010 1:33 PM MST reply actions  

Just because I’m curious, where would you have ranked Brule at the start of last season? At the end of last season?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 2:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Count me among the Brule fans. I was one who thought the likes of Brule, Stone & Potulny should be here. I know you probably won’t believe that, but just to show you, I picked them over Nilsson, Jacques & Pouliot, respectively. I’m sure its documented at OilersNation, but I’m not all that interested in looking it up, lol.

by RossCreek on Feb 24, 2010 2:54 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t expect you to look it up. I was just curious. I don’t think there’s much numerical evidence in their careers prior to this season that Brule would have been a better bet than Nilsson or Pouliot. What made you believe in him before this season’s results?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 3:07 PM MST up reply actions  

I’m not a fan of Brule either. He’s never shown anything in pro hockey. This year he has some nice boxcars, but when he’s apart from Penner, he’s the same old Brule.

The shots data is even worse. Brule’s Corsi ratio is .471, but with Penner is .517.

Without Penner it’s .444.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 24, 2010 3:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Everybody is better with Penner.

Hemsky’s Corsi ratio is .505, but with Penner is .556. Without Penner it’s .445.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 8:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Right, but then you have the well-known Jacques factor.

Hemsky w/ Penner: .556
Hemsky overall: .506
Hemsky w/o Penner: .445
Hesmky w/ Jacques: .425

54% of Hemsky’s TOI was with Penner
28% of Hemsky’s TOI was with Jacques

Brule w/ Penner: .517
Brule overall: .471
Brule w/o Penner: .444
Brule w/ Jacques: .398

35% of Brule’s TOI was with Penner
20% of Brule’s TOI was with Jacques

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 24, 2010 9:29 PM MST up reply actions  

So both Hemsky and Brule are helped by playing with Penner and hurt by playing with Jacques.

News at eleven.

I don’t follow your point that this somehow exposes Brule as the “same old Brule”.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Btw, where do you get those TOI percentages? I used to get it from HockeyAnalysis.com and found it real useful, but they stopped doing that in 2009-10.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 24, 2010 10:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Brule’s PDO is pretty much 100.0 which on an Oilers team with terrible goaltending is an indication of some serious puck luck.

I couldn’t tell Pouliot and Brule apart from Peter and Paul but history says that many “breakout seasons” from young players are bestowed by Lady Luck.

And the litmus test is really Traktor, if he says the ratings are crazy then you guys are on the right path.

by R O on Feb 24, 2010 1:40 PM MST reply actions  

“Brule’s PDO is pretty much 100.0 which on an Oilers team with terrible goaltending is an indication of some serious puck luck.”

I like Brule because he has speed, knows how to use his body, and he has a ton of courage. He plays a reckless style that causes turnovers from timid defenders. Opposing players are afraid to be first to the puck because they know if they get to it first they will pay the price. Contrast to a player like O’Sullivan who defenders love to play against because they are never in danger.

That has nothing to do with Lady Luck.

by Traktor on Feb 24, 2010 2:50 PM MST reply actions  

I also like that Brule is willing to be physical. He always finishes his checks. In some ways that’s a good thing, for many of the reasons that you point out. But sometimes it can be a bad thing. I’ve noticed Brule’s reckless style sometimes put him out of position. Although he makes a good hit, it results in a chance going the other way. He’s far from unique in this (Jacques, for instance, is much, much worse) but it’s something I’d like to see him clean up in teh future.

Do you subscribe to the “traditional” roster make-up for forwards? By that I mean two scoring lines, a traditional checking line and an energy line. If so, where do you think Brule fits in that structure? But really, either way, how do you think Brule fits in on a winning team?

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 3:20 PM MST up reply actions  

I like Brule because he has speed, knows how to use his body, and he has a ton of courage.

You should tell Tambellini, he’s still trying to assess you know.

Besides, none of this really matters because for all that print wasted on his body and speed and heart, he still wouldn’t outscore without a healthy does of luck.

by R O on Feb 24, 2010 2:53 PM MST reply actions  

R O

Going to hard to the net and having a rebound land on your stick can be considered lucky but if you don’t have the courage to go to the areas then you don’t get that lucky break.

On the other hand if you play like Patrick O’Sullivan: play the entire game on the perimeter, fire countless shots from horrible angles and have nothing to show for it, then you’ll have a group of math junkies tell you about how unlucky he is.

Funny how that works.

by Traktor on Feb 24, 2010 3:19 PM MST reply actions  

I do agree with you on the last point about O’Sullivan. His shot selection is really very bad. Based on the times I’ve seen him shoot from good spots in open space (or in the shoot-out) he actually has a good shot. But like you say, a lot of his shots come from terrible angles. He’s one guy that I would expect to have poor shooting percentages (personal and on-ice).

by Scott Reynolds on Feb 24, 2010 3:22 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t think math junkies is even something that exists, I mean who is addicted to math?

Anyways the population of hockey players consists of players who are known to be notoriously soft in the corners but are still excellent EV outchancers and outscorers. Alex Tanguay comes to mind.

Never change Traktor, the world needs people like you.

by R O on Feb 24, 2010 3:24 PM MST reply actions  

“Never change Traktor, the world needs people like you.”

I don’t think you have a clue what the world needs. Stick to reading the back of hockey cards.

by Traktor on Feb 24, 2010 3:53 PM MST reply actions  

Stick to reading the back of hockey cards

When it comes to knowing what a guy’s +/- and GAON/60 are over half a season I think I’d rather just ask you.

by R O on Feb 24, 2010 3:55 PM MST up reply actions  

The both of you – knock it off

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Feb 24, 2010 4:13 PM MST up reply actions  

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