The $10 MM checking line
Ten games ago Pat Quinn rearranged his line combinations, breaking up long-standing trios of Shawn Horcoff with Patrick O'Sullivan and mostly Jean-François Jacques, and Ethan Moreau with Andrew Cogliano and mostly Zack Stortini. He united Moreau and Horcoff with fellow veteran Fernando Pisani of no fixed line, and tasked them with the assignment of hard-matching against the opponents' top trio. The three have lots in common:
- all are vets of the 2006 Stanley Cup run with a history/reputation for playing tough minutes;
- all are members of the core leadership group -- Moreau wears the "C", Horcoff and Pisani both an "A";
- all are somewhat to very expensive, collectively accounting for a cap hit of $10 MM (Horcoff $5.5 MM, Pisani $2.5, Moreau $2.0)
Ten million bucks seems like a lot for a checking line; surely by putting all his veteran eggs in one basket Quinn could rely on a stabilizing defensive posture. The trio had a promising start when they hard-matched against Vancouver's red-hot Sedin-Sedin-Burrows trio on January 20, holding them off the scoresheet at even strength. Unfortunately, Vancouver's powerplay was clicking on all cylinders, scoring three goals with the man advantage, including the game-winner in overtime. The end result was yet another Oilers loss, but the performance of the new MPH line was considered a qualified success.
So, ten games later, how has that experiment been going anyway? The short answer is, not well. But this is me, so you're going to get the long answer anyway.
The MPH Line has actually played together in 8 of the last 10 games, with Pisani drawing the short straw during the brief 2-game winning streak last week. Since the Vancouver game, each time all three played they have collectively posted a net minus, and the Oilers have lost in regulation each and every time. Here's a summary of those games including the line they were assigned to shadow (in order of most minutes as faced by Horcoff, courtesy timeonice.com), the net +/- of the three Oilers combined, and the game's outcome.
| OPP | FWD | FWD | FWD | +/- | Score | Remarks |
| VAN | Sedin | Sedin | Burrows | EV | 2-3 | OT |
| DAL | BRichards | Neal | Eriksson | -2 | 3-4 | |
| CHI | Toews | Brouwer | PKane | -1 | 2-4 | |
| STL | Boyes | Tkachuk | McDonald | -3 | 1-2 | |
| CAL | Nystrom | Lundmark | OJokinen | -4 | 1-6 | |
| CAR | EStaal | Whitney | JJokinen | EV | 4-2 | Pisani PB |
| PHI | MRichards | Hartnell | Gagne | EV | 1-0 | Pisani PB |
| MIN | MKoivu | Miettinen | Brunette | -3 | 2-4 | |
| COL | Galiardi | Duchene | Wolski | -2 | 0-3 | |
| PHX | Lombardi | Lang | Doan | -10 | 1-6 |
Other than the Calgary game which was a lost cause early with Quinn just rolling the lines, the trio did indeed draw the toughest assignments. Unfortunately, they have consistently failed to neutralize their opponents, and their young teammates have been unable to overcome the deficit, resulting in a string of losses.
An extreme case in point occurred Monday night in Phoenix, when the MPH Line lined up against Phoenix's top trio of Shane Doan ($4.55 MM) Matthew Lombardi ($1.82 MM), and Robert Lang ($1.0 MM). A $10 MM checking line against a $7.4 MM scoring line, should be a saw-off, eh? Not so fast! Despite Doan's early departure from the game, the Phoenix threesome combined for 10 points and +13, while the Oiler vets were saddled with a collective -10. It certainly didn't help that they couldn't get a save behind them, but it was ugly nonetheless.
The MPH Line has contributed next to no offence, combining for a single goal against Chicago (while down 4-0), with Moreau an innocent bystander on another goal scored during a line change. He therefore has the best on-ice Sh% over the 10 games, a measly 3.3%; the other two are even worse. (The team as a whole is not much better, with an EV Sh% of just 4.4% over the ten games.) All three suffer from poor on-ice Sv% as well, ranging from .861 to .878; the team's rate during this spell is .902. But underlying those bad numbers are poor shots and Corsi numbers as well; Oilers have been outshot 61-82 with Horcoff on the ice at evens; 60-79 with Moreau; 42-65 with Pisani. Using Dennis's scoring chance metric (9 games, MIN missing), those ratios are even more bleak, at 33-56, 30-59, and 23-42 respectively. These guys are getting killed out there, and only so much of the blame can be apportioned to the young goalies or to bad luck.
Pisani's situation is particularly bleak. Saint Fernando has dressed for 19 games in 2009-10, and the Oilers have won just a single one of those games (1-15-3). He is currently riding a personal 15-game losing streak.
It's interesting to look at the performance of the team as a whole across the last 10 games. First of all, goals for and against sorted by +/- per 60, with forwards shown in blue, defencemen in red, and goalies in copper:
| No. | Player | GP | TOI | GF | GA | 5v5 +/- | +-/60 |
| 46 | Stortini | 7 | 53.8 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 4.5 |
| 48 | Plante | 4 | 54.1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1.1 |
| 78 | Pouliot | 10 | 105.7 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0.6 |
| 5 | Smid | 2 | 30.0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 22 | Jacques | 10 | 86.8 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 27 | Penner | 10 | 134.5 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 89 | Gagner | 9 | 115.1 | 2 | 3 | -1 | -0.5 |
| 77 | Gilbert | 10 | 175.0 | 5 | 9 | -4 | -1.4 |
| 13 | Cogliano | 10 | 127.0 | 2 | 5 | -3 | -1.4 |
| 41 | Chorney | 8 | 117.1 | 1 | 4 | -3 | -1.5 |
| 37 | Grebeshkov | 10 | 182.2 | 4 | 9 | -5 | -1.6 |
| 71 | Visnovsky | 10 | 178.3 | 2 | 7 | -5 | -1.7 |
| 38 | Deslauriers | 7 | 344.2 | 8 | 18 | -10 | -1.7 |
| 67 | Brule | 5 | 60.0 | 1 | 3 | -2 | -2.0 |
| 40 | Dubnyk | 3 | 142.7 | 2 | 7 | -5 | -2.1 |
| 44 | Souray | 5 | 85.4 | 3 | 6 | -3 | -2.1 |
| 19 | O'Sullivan | 9 | 114.0 | 2 | 7 | -5 | -2.6 |
| 91 | Comrie | 6 | 68.1 | 0 | 3 | -3 | -2.6 |
| 12 | Nilsson | 7 | 88.7 | 2 | 6 | -4 | -2.7 |
| 43 | Strudwick | 10 | 138.4 | 3 | 10 | -7 | -3.0 |
| 16 | Potulny | 9 | 108.2 | 2 | 8 | -6 | -3.3 |
| 10 | Horcoff | 10 | 143.9 | 1 | 10 | -9 | -3.8 |
| 34 | Pisani | 8 | 111.4 | 1 | 8 | -7 | -3.8 |
| 18 | Moreau | 10 | 142.6 | 2 | 11 | -9 | -3.8 |
| 24 | Staios | 1 | 13.9 | 0 | 4 | -4 | -17.3 |
| ** | Team | 10 | 486.9 | 10 | 25 | -15 | -1.8 |
Note how the club's veterans populate the bottom half of the list, with the MPH Line the worst of the forwards, while the four worst defencemen were the four over-30s. Staios has a tiny sample size of just one game, but he sure got lit up in Glendale.
Next is a list of even-strength scoring over that same stretch of games, in order of actual points scored:
| No. | Player | GP | TOI | G | A | P | P/60 |
| 78 | Pouliot | 10 | 105.7 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 2.3 |
| 27 | Penner | 10 | 134.5 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1.3 |
| 22 | Jacques | 10 | 86.8 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 2.1 |
| 46 | Stortini | 7 | 53.8 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3.3 |
| 89 | Gagner | 9 | 115.1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1.0 |
| 12 | Nilsson | 7 | 88.7 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1.4 |
| 19 | O'Sullivan | 9 | 114.0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1.1 |
| 67 | Brule | 5 | 60.0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1.0 |
| 44 | Souray | 5 | 85.4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.7 |
| 16 | Potulny | 9 | 108.2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.6 |
| 34 | Pisani | 8 | 111.4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.5 |
| 48 | Plante | 4 | 54.1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1.1 |
| 13 | Cogliano | 10 | 127.0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.5 |
| 18 | Moreau | 10 | 142.6 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.4 |
| 10 | Horcoff | 10 | 143.9 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.4 |
| 77 | Gilbert | 10 | 175.0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.3 |
| 91 | Comrie | 6 | 68.1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 24 | Staios | 1 | 13.9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 5 | Smid | 2 | 30.0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 37 | Grebeshkov | 10 | 182.2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 38 | Deslauriers | 7 | 344.2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 40 | Dubnyk | 3 | 142.7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 41 | Chorney | 8 | 117.1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 43 | Strudwick | 10 | 138.4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| 71 | Visnovsky | 10 | 178.3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| ** | Team | 10 | 486.9 | 10 | 18 | 28 | 3.5 |
The small amount of good news is concentrated near the top, where the Class of '03 Line (Pouliot-Jacques-Stortini) has surprisingly emerged as the Oilers' top even-strength scoring threat in recent games despite their limited ice time. The bad news is that none of the top 3 lines is being very productive, with the veterans up front and the entire blueline corps struggling badly offensively. The MPH line is again clustered at the bottom of the forwards, each having scored a single point on that same meaningless goal against Chicago. Not just they but all of the Oilers' veteran corps have been letting down the side during this recent stretch of futility. Even Lubo Visnovsky, the one veteran Oiler who had been playing fairly well early in the season, has fallen on hard times of late.
I'm left with the distinct impression that all of the vets realize how truly hopeless this situation is. Unfortunately, their poor play is not going to make them attractive to other teams which might offer them a fresh opportunity at the trade deadline.
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Great analysis…showing the terrible season that this has been. And the vets arent helping anyone’s cause. MPH line did seem like a good idea at that time. I did not know they were failing so bad.
You’re right, Sum, it did seem a good idea at the time. The three guys were all struggling in their various lines, and the team was sure struggling, esp. against other team’s power. (19-10-22 was getting lit up) Alas, after some early promise the MPH trio is similarly getting owned. I hesitate to put it all on them, tried not to be too judgmental in the above and focussed on results. It must be borne in mind that they have not been helped by either defence or goaltending, this team is a mess from top to bottom. But the vets — and not just these three — are a good place to start, not only in analyzing what’s gone wrong this year, but in determining what course of action to take next.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 8:36 AM MST up reply actions
There is something i have been thinking for the past few days ever since the trade rumors of us trading moreau and a draft pick for a rental.
Why should we do it? I realise moreau has negative impact on this team. But we are going to be in rebuild mode and we all know that we are not going to be that much better next season. So shouldnt we be saving the picks rather than spending them? About Moreau being useless, i think we are better of sending him down to AHL and if someone takes him then good for him or else just let him play in the A. This way we dont have to deal draft picks while his cap hit comes off the books!!
I read the article and the thing that jumps out at me the most is how awful Strudwick really is.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
That jumped out at me too, although to be fair none of the vets has had a good stretch, including a bunch of guys who make a lot more coin than Struds. During this span Strudwick struggled whether on RD and LD, and whether playing with Chorney, Grebs, or last game with his old buddy Staios. He also struggled on the PK with various partners, and has been the common denominator to the last 6 powerplay goals against the Oilers. (Note: The Oil haven’s allowed a PPGA for four games now, one small facet of the game that isn’t killing them in the last week or so.)
Only Alex Plante had any measure of success playing with Struds, which serves to reinforce the good impression Plante made by eye during his 4-game cup o’ coffee.
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 8:51 AM MST up reply actions
Another thing that is particularly impressive is Gilbert. He has been effective on defensive sides of things
He’s been effective all year long by all of the numbers. That the message boards have turned on him should be a clue that he’s performing well, see: Penner, Dustin and Gagner, Sam.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Where've you gone Joe Dimagio?
Reading the Game Thread for the Wilee’s game, it was interesting to see that even the most dedicated Horcoffians are losing heart.
I’m clinging to the fact that for 20 games Hemsky was a ppg player on Horcoff’s wing even tho’ both were playing hurt.
I didn’t think the MPH line would work, mostly because of Moreau.
Folks hereabouts have tended to scapegoat Moreau – as fans elsewhere have scapegoated MacT, Horcov, and now Hemsky.
The fact is Moreau is done.
In the early MPH games he kept up, but he was paddling as hard as he could to do so. But, in the Chicago game he was a disaster – was totally exposed. The NHL game is moving too fast for him now.
Like others, I think Pisani belongs on the 4th line in Detroit making $750,000 for each of the next two years. Get a 4th rounder for him.
I didn’t think the MPH line would work, mostly because of Moreau.
… which was the exact reason why I didn’t think the Moreau-Cogliano-Stortini line would work either, and said as much right when they put that trio together. Sure enough, Moreau’s inability to pass the puck to Cogliano or to cycle it in the general direction of Stortini was painfully apparent. His idea of offence is to “surprise” the goalie with a bad angle shot, and 33 games worth of zeroes suggest that it’s not a very successful tactic. His impatience with the puck and general failure to protect it let alone do anything positive with it is going to haunt him and his unfortunate linemates no matter who they are.
The fact is Moreau is done.
In the early MPH games he kept up, but he was paddling as hard as he could to do so. But, in the Chicago game he was a disaster – was totally exposed. The NHL game is moving too fast for him now.
Agree 100%, Mr. dB. I attended that Chicago game, and thecaptain was clearly out of his depths. I pilloried him pretty good in this game report.
Moreau is the Strudwick of the forward line. His career did have a bigger upside but has been crashing to the floor pretty much since the Danny Markov fight in Oct. ‘06, and he simply isn’t good enough. It’s one thing to get by on guile and reputation, but when you’re lacking in the guile department it’s not going to work.
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
Personally, I think thoe kind of numbers over that kind of window are going to be almost entirely noise.
That said, Pisani is done and Moreau was never any hell. I won’t be popular for saying it, but Horcoff is still a good player.
One day I’ll post some old shots metrics numbers from 02/03 and 03/04. They’re scraped from the old shift charts, so the resolution isn’t great, random error is going to be larger than now with the TOI sheets. Still, Pisani was a freaking beast. The puck just always ended up in the right end of the rink when he was out there. And surely the scoring chance numbers followed suit, they always do.
Since the summer of ‘06 though, Fernie has been a horror show. Look at his scoring chance numbers last year and this. Look at his shots+/- and corsi numbers … even a huge Pisani fan like me can’t rationalize that.
I suspect that Fernando’s first brush with colitis came in late December ‘05 and lasted up to the Olympics. The RPM line had been absolutely kicking ass before that. He was basing it on his loose feel of scoring chances, but he wasn’t keeping a hard count back then. Neither was I, but I knew he was right. I didn’t say so because I’d already wasted countless hours trying to convince the tools on the message boards that Pisani wasn’t just wasting a roster spot better spent on Jani Rita or some other B list prospect.
Moreau was the opportunist on that line, Reasoner and Pisani were the guys who were hard on the puck. And when Fernando’s game went for a shit, the line fell apart and the whole team struggled to outchance the opposition for a long stretch. We look back on that team as a crew that outchanced but were let down by goaltending. IMHO they were a team that outchanced for all but that stretch, and more than goaltending … the other teams were just making their shots. The universe demands that happens to someone, after all.
I remember when the Oilers were practicing just before or after the Oly break, Fernando was absent (Pronger had a broken/bruised foot during the aforementioned stretch as well BTW, that didn’t help). The dudes that had seen that Fernie wasn’t the Fernie of old speculated on the injury. Nobody guessed colitis.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind that Fernando got paid. It was an overpay, but as I said in a post called “29”, named after his playoff shooting%, he’s the kind of guy you don’t mind winning the lottery.
But he’s done. Just is.
Personally, I think thoe kind of numbers over that kind of window are going to be almost entirely noise.
Certainly there is going to be a lot of noise in there. I tried to account for that in some of the comments about on-ice percentages and so on, and in the statistics by eliminating the second decimal point that customarily appears in “per 60” metrics. I’m not that confident in them to the nearest goal let alone hundredth of a goal.
Percentages and so forth have a way of levelling out. But when you see scoring chance differentials on the order of +30/-59 or +23/-42, the noise you’re hearing is real NHLers yelling “You’re not good enough!”
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 4:32 PM MST up reply actions
I suspect that Fernando’s first brush with colitis came in late December ‘05 and lasted up to the Olympics. The RPM line had been absolutely kicking ass before that. He was basing it on his loose feel of scoring chances, but he wasn’t keeping a hard count back then. Neither was I, but I knew he was right. I didn’t say so because I’d already wasted countless hours trying to convince the tools on the message boards that Pisani wasn’t just wasting a roster spot better spent on Jani Rita or some other B list prospect.
Interesting take, Vic. I doubt we’ll ever know for sure, but when a guy falls off of a cliff like that it does stick out. Like Reddox this year after that hit.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
On his callup this year, Reddox showed exactly that. He was making the simple plays that Quinn was begging for all year and he was playing Quinn’s game. His Corsi and chances numbers reflected that. Through six games he had 18 chances for, 24 chances against – outchanced by one per game, the relative ranking on the Oilers would have been somewhere around 7/14 at the time. His Corsi was no great shakes, but he wasn’t getting blown away. Then came the hit, pictured above. In the three games after Clarke MacArthur put a brutally dirty hit on Reddox, Reddox fell apart. Reddox and his linemates had 1 chance for and 17 chances against. His Corsi value in those three games was -39. Even after he was sent to the AHL, his game suffered. It’s a good bet that Reddox was hurt more than he let on.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
That three-game Corsi of -39 looks even worse when expressed as a ratio: +7/-46. I remember that stretch well. Reddox went from being serviceable to being completely overwhelmed in what amounted to a heartbeat after MacArthur creamed him. The team was raving about how tough he was to get up and come back for more, but it was probably one of those situations where the decision should have been taken out of the player’s hands.
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 6:32 PM MST up reply actions
To add on Moreau …
Not to pile on, the fanboys seem to have decided that the Oilers collection of failed 1st round draft picks will excel if Moreau is sent away, and that’s just nuts.
I suspect that Moreau is a decent guy, at least by hockey player standards. But he’s never been any hell. Granted, my own bias is towards guys who are hard on the puck, and that’s never been Ethan’s game. I defended him in years past when ALL of the Oilers problems were being hung on him, and later mocked the cats who voted him team MVP in 03/04. He is what he is.
In January of ‘02, when Ryan Smyth came back from injury way too soon, and was just terrible, the port side got shuffled by MacTavish. For one stretch he had Hecht playing with Marchant and Grier, and they were freaking awesome. A shame they didn’t get more puck luck, they logged brutal minutes and outchanced the bad guys terrifically. That said all I needed to know about Ethan’s game.
BTW: For a coupleof years after the lockout, on occasions when all were healthy, Hecht-Drury-Grier were an awesome checking line. I guess if you score too much they stop calling you a checking line, but that was their gig. Briere ended up looking like the star, and the Sabres had more than their share of puck luck for a year or so. Still, terrific line. All really good players IMO.
BTW: For a coupleof years after the lockout, on occasions when all were healthy, Hecht-Drury-Grier were an awesome checking line. I guess if you score too much they stop calling you a checking line, but that was their gig. Briere ended up looking like the star, and the Sabres had more than their share of puck luck for a year or so. Still, terrific line. All really good players IMO.
Hecht is still top-notch, though often trashed by Sabres fans. Seems to be an undercurrent with fan bases – trash the useful players and rally around the kids!
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
He’s also been trashed by the German national team. I have no idea why they didn’t put him on the team. It’s just… stupid.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 10, 2010 7:06 PM MST up reply actions
Surely it’s because those other 23 Germans in the NHL are all better than … oh, never mind.
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by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 7:53 PM MST up reply actions
As I’m rambling … Grier was a hell of a player, I’m glad he’s still going. To my mind, the most frghtening hitter I’ve ever seen, and not in a gambling in open ice kind of way, just an honest player who made you pay. Broke my heart when they traded him. Pissed me off when they ran Marchant out of town as well. I know Todd wasn’t that popular, and his faith was maybe a bit much for some, and wearing an NHLPA jacket to an EIG function sealed his fate (I would have respected him mor for getting hammered at a Rexall function, a la Brodziak). Still, it was shitty the way MacTavish and Lowe handled Marchant at the end.
I wasn’t following things as seriously back then…why the hell did they deal Grier? I never understood that: he was the prototypical ‘96-’06 Oiler, nothing fancy, just get the job done.
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I was and remain a huge Mike Grier fan. A helluva player. His offensive performance was kind of spotty, he’d have a good goal-scoring year followed by a bad one, but the thing was he helped in the seasons he scored 9 goals, and the ones he scored 20 he was an absolute godsend. One of my favourite post-dynasty Oilers, hell, one of my fave Oilers period.
We so could use a player of Grier’s capability today, a big, physical, smart guy in the top 9. It’s a gaping void on the current roster.
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 4:39 PM MST up reply actions
BTW:
Remember Lupulsmid? The game the whole family could play?
Run that exact reasoning on the 07/08 roster and Cole rises right up there with Horcoff, Penner, Hemsky. Gagner hangs in with that crowd, then a big dropoff to (of all people) Potulny, and then another big drop to the dregs.
Do the same for this year, Horcoff is right up there again. As is Penner (no better or worse than last year, hot and cold counting number streaks be damned) and Hemsky. Potulny held his spot and Stone, from completely off the radar, has joined him.
The rest of the Oiler forwards are exactly as Lupulsmid thought they were a year ago.
Pouliot is a guy with a real chance of being useful … he rest can go as far as I’m concerned. If one of them “breaks out” somewhere else, so be it. They have to clear out this shit and get some better forwards. Not better in the collective opinion of the HFerasts, just better players. The galling thing is that, ever since I’ve been following hockey, there has never been a time when useful, proven forwards were more affordable. The market always changes, so that will change soon enough, I suspect. And the Oilers are missing their window to correct their problems. Hell, they’re one of the reasons the market is off on this type of player.
the Oilers are missing their window to correct their problems. Hell, they’re one of the reasons the market is off on this type of player.
Aye, Vic. Sad but true.
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 10, 2010 4:42 PM MST up reply actions

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