Carolina struggles at the gate, and not just this year
This may seem like a repeat of an article that I wrote about the Colorado Avalanche, but the Carolina Hurricanes are struggling to bring fans in this year. But digging a bit deeper, we see that resting turnstiles in Raleigh is not a new thing. Carolina has struggled to attract fans since the lockout, and this in a market that Gary Bettman fawns over.
"Breakfast, shmreakfast. Look at the score, for Christ's sake. It's only the second period and I'm up 12 to 2. Breakfasts come and go, Rene, but Hartford, "the Whale," they only beat Vancouver once, maybe twice in a lifetime"
--Brodie, "Mallrats"
SB Nation's Hurricanes vs Oilers coverage
Canes Country had a look at attendance numbers this year, and mentioned that besides the home opener, the Canes haven't had a sellout this season. While some would point to their performance this year as the reason for the problems, a look at the last four years' worth of attendance data shows that this has never been a strong market in terms of attendance.
*won Stanley Cup
**made conference finals
The 2005-2006 season could be excused because the league was coming out of the work stoppage. But that year, the Canes won the Stanley Cup and though there was a slight bounce in attendance the following year, the RBC Center was still only filled to 92.8% capacity. In 2007-2008, Carolina was in a dogfight for the division up until the very end and only managed to draw 88.8% capacity. Last year, the team made the conference finals, and as mentioned above, they've only sold out one game this season, so the fans weren't buying tickets to begin the season.
When the news broke that the Hurricanes are attempting to move their AHL affiliate to Charlotte, Canes Country posited:
...having an AHL affiliate in Charlotte would bridge the gap between the state's two biggest cities. Despite being the "Carolina" Hurricanes, the organization has been Raleigh's team, not the Carolinas' or even the state's. If interest in the AHL team blossomed — and a city as big as Charlotte should have no problem supporting a Triple A-level minor league hockey team — there would be an immediate connection between Charlotte and the Hurricanes, helping to further grow the fan base.
It's a nice thought, but if Raleigh can't fill the building for one of the more successful franchises in the league, what kind of attendance numbers will Charlotte be able to generate for an AHL team? The impact of a successful AHL team in Charlotte would be negligible in Raleigh. The cities are a nearly-three hour drive away from each other so additional ticket sales are a non-starter. A successful AHL team with 6,000 fans per night might add a few hundred extra households to the television market, but not much more. Counting on Charlotte's AHL team to rescue attendance and fan support in Raleigh strikes me as a little bit of a castle-in-the-sky.
"This is not a traditional hockey market" and "It takes time to build a market" are the typical excuses used to defend numbers like these, especially when a generalization about "Southern teams" is made. But this is a market that has had a team for twelve years now and the attendance numbers aren't improving. In those twelve years, Canes fans have seen a conference final, a Stanley Cup final and a Stanley Cup -- far more on-ice success than most of the teams ranked above them in capacity numbers -- yet none of that success is translating to ticket sales. It may be translating to television success, but Carolina is one of two teams in the NHL that does not release Nielsen ratings from it's local affiliate, so we can't be certain. However, given the attendance figures at RBC and the television ratings of other similar teams in NHL markets, I doubt that Carolina is able to draw more than a 1.2 rating.
Bettman is aiming extremely low when he gushes over the strength of the Carolina market. If 92% is the high end of what the Raleigh market can muster on a year-to-year basis, and all evidence says it is, then Carolina must be considered a bottom-tier market, even a struggling market. If Stanley Cups, conference finals, regular visits from Alex Ovechkin and Sidney Crosby and their own superstars Eric Staal and Cam Ward aren't enough to sell the building out, what is?
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I think some of the poor attendance this season can be linked to the poor on-ice performance. They were basically eliminated from playoff contention by November and that isn’t going to do wonders for team attendance.
The other seasons don’t seem bad to me. Heck, in one of them they drew more fans than the Oilers. I think we need to know how much they bring in for each ticket before we can talk about these numbers in a really meaningful way but at least in terms of bodies, the numbers are decent.
I also think they’ve demonstrated good attendance growth. From 1997-98 to 2000-2001 their highest average attendance was about 13,400. From 2001-2002 to the lockout they didn’t crack an average of 16,000 even once. In the four full years since the lockout they’ve been over 16,000 three times and above the league average for the first in the season after they won the Cup. The market looks like it’s growing to me. With the poor economy and the team’s poor performance, this season is a step back but not necessarily a permanent one.
Finally, the Whalers were awful in terms of attendance. In their last eight seasons they only drew an average of 13,000 or more twice and they were below the league average every season. It’s not like this team was in a great situation and then moved to an awful one.
Obviously it would be great if every team in the NHL drew more fans but I don’t think the move to Carolina hurt the league at all. They moved into a new market and have created new fans, which is good for the league. The team’s attendance was slowly improved and if the team can be competitive, I think that slow growth is likely to continue.
I think some of the poor attendance this season can be linked to the poor on-ice performance. They were basically eliminated from playoff contention by November and that isn’t going to do wonders for team attendance.
They were coming off of a conference finals trip and didn’t sell out a game after the opener. The ticket sales were in trouble well before anyone knew they stunk.
The other seasons don’t seem bad to me. Heck, in one of them they drew more fans than the Oilers.
You know that arena size is the reason for that, so why say it?
It’s not like this team was in a great situation and then moved to an awful one.
I didn’t say that.
Obviously it would be great if every team in the NHL drew more fans but I don’t think the move to Carolina hurt the league at all.
I didn’t say that either.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I just think you’re overstating the problems. The Oilers get by just fine with their arena size and the Hurricanes have drawn a comparable number of fans over that time. That’s why I brought it up. I don’t think the evidence supports your contention that they’re “a struggling market.” Again though, price point on the tickets would be good to know.
As for them struggling at the outset, how was their first month of attendance relative to other first months? Was it similar? Different? I don’t know but it seems relevant to the discussion. If they averaged 16,000 over the first month, is that a bad number for them? Is 15,000 a bad number for them in October? So they usually have any sellouts other than the home opener in October? I don’t know. If you know that stuff then you could maybe present a more compelling case but “no sellouts” is not a convincing argument for me.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
The Oilers get by just fine with their arena size and the Hurricanes have drawn a comparable number of fans over that time.
Edmonton is getting $14 more per ticket.
I think you’ve got a team that is likely drawing less than 20,000 households per game in viewership and can’t fill their arena with some of the lowest ticket prices in the NHL. This is a winning team with major post-stoppage success, not the Islanders or the Yotes.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Barring some miracle turnaround, they will have missed the playoffs three out of five seasons since the lockout. And two years prior to that as well. That is major success? Carolina is a “winning team”?
They’ve got a Stanley Cup and a conference final in four years. I’m not sure what more a fanbase can expect out of team, to be frank.
Vancouver fans would probably sell their Prisues for that kind of success.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Considering they got boned out of the division title in both years they missed the playoffs between the two long runs by Bettman points…yeah, I’m okay with that contention.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Boy, you Carolina fans should be proud of your team’s success. One Stanley Cup, two conference crowns, and three conference final appearances in the last 7 seasons is a fantastic record.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
The teams that have been better than Carolina on the ice are able to be counted on one hand. The teams with more success off-ice, where, there are about fifteen to eighteen of those.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I appreciate the link to the info Derek but for some reason it’s not working for me. Any ideas as to why? It gets stuck on the “loading” screen.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 4:08 PM PST up reply actions
Hm, I’m not sure why.
As of October 2008 (which is the most recent I could find quickly)
Edmonton avg. ticket price is $54.17
League Average is $49.66
Carolina avg. ticket price is $38.38
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I just think you’re overstating the problems.
Actually, going by your initial post, it seems like you overstated the problems in your head, and then attributed those thoughts to me.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I was just comparing the team’s performance in Hartford to their performance in Raleigh. It wasn’t a comparsion you made and I’m sorry I brought that up because I think it’s only ended up being a distraction from the discussion.
As to the actual points, I don’t think it’s fair to characterize the market as “struggling” because we don’t know what is normal for the market to start the year. Was attendance normal or down in October? I don’t think we know. If October was close to normal, I think it’s fair to say that some of the attendance problem is the poor team. As for the market itself, it’s shown growth over the last fifteen years. According to the Forbes study the team is operating at a small loss but the value of the franchise has seen substantial increases, and revenue is also increasing. If this season turns into a downward trend then I can see the concern but it seems to be the market in Carolina has strenghtened over time and that there’s real hope for the future of hockey there.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
this year's "struggles" are two fold
(1) record (a complete piss-poor performances from the team in October and November). Really. Shite. Horrible.
and
(2) economy. A large percentage of the season ticket holders worked for Nortel, IBM, and Ericsson. Maybe you’ve heard about the layoffs there?
We have a solid, loyal and growing fan base.
Oh, and we have a Cup, you might remember that series. Came against some little oil burgh up in Alberta…
by DidJussiThat? on Feb 1, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
Bragging about having a cup? How adorable!
by Benjamin Massey on Feb 1, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
oh yeah.. when did edmonton last win a cup?? I do believe its been 20 years. With the lack of talent on your team right now, I bet it will take 20 more just to get your franchise straightened out!
by bleedblackred on Feb 1, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
(1) record (a complete piss-poor performances from the team in October and November). Really. Shite. Horrible.
And again – attendance was down before anyone knew that the team was going to have a terrible October and November.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I don’t think you’ve established this. What was the October attendance this year compared to past seasons? Are many sellouts at the beginning of the year normal? If not, how much does “only one sellout” really tell us?
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 4:35 PM PST up reply actions
First five home games:
18,680
16,186
13,597
14,053
15,549
83% capacity.
Like I said.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
But what is normal for their first five home games? Last year they had:
18,680
18,680
15,016
15,635
15,206
89% capacity.
The year before that it was:
18,680
17,816
15,532
16,058
16,796
91% capacity.
So it’s down somewhat from the last two seasons but they don’t normally sell out at the beginning of the year anyway. I think it’s fair to say that some of the decline should be attributed to the economy being rough over the past year. Have ticket prices increased or decreased from last season? I don’t know. Maybe one of the Hurricanes fans can let us know. It’s also worth mentioning that there’s been a steep decline from the 83% they managed over their first five games, likely due to having a poor club whereas, in the two previous seasons, attendance was closer to flat.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
So it’s down somewhat from the last two seasons but they don’t normally sell out at the beginning of the year anyway.
89% and 91% are actually above their full season averages! 83% coming off of a conference final is not strong and 1200 people less than previous seasons.
Bravo, you’re doing a better job than Canes fans.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
89% last year basically is their season average. The year before it fell slightly (from about 91% to about 89%. This year they’re already down from 83% to 77% and it will likely drop a bit further. The poor play has mattered IMO.
And yes, 83% is not particularly strong, but if the average ticket price went up 6% (I don’t know if they did or didn’t) the drop in terms of ticket revenue is negligible. I wish I had real numbers but if the average price of sold tickets this season is $38.38 and it was (say) $36.00 last season their revenue is actually up this year.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
They actually have changed their week-of-game ticketing. It used to be that fans could get really cheap tickets the week of the game and even $10 tickets day-of. Unfortunately they have now raised the price for game-week and we no longer have game-day cheap tickets. This, I’m sure, has led to very many fans not being able to go to games. If many are like me, I usually do not know that I’m going to a game a couple of weeks in advance, I sometimes choose game-day or the day before. But since the prices are higher, I am less willing to pay for the game.
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
They actually have changed their week-of-game ticketing. It used to be that fans could get really cheap tickets the week of the game and even $10 tickets day-of. Unfortunately they have now raised the price for game-week and we no longer have game-day cheap tickets.
Why in the world would a team struggling to sell tickets do that?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
If 80% of the people still buy the tickets, they likely make more money.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
You’re asking the wrong person. It’s has more to do with who is selling the tickets. But I have been there and seen it and am annoyed by it.
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
is it based on the opponent at all?
Phoenix does that with teams that travel well, such as Detroit and I think the Canadian teams in the Western conference as well. Their intention is to get more money from the fans of the visitors, but they wind up gouging their own fans as well who just want to see that game instead of purchasing season tickets.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
I don’t believe it has anything to do with the opponent.
This comes directly from the Canes’ website:
*Game-Week Pricing
Within 7 days of any game date, Advance Pricing and any associated ticket offers will no longer be available. (Tickets for a Saturday match-up purchased the Sunday prior and up to the day of game will be sold at Game-Week Pricing.)
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
I see
So it’s the “suck their wallets dry” pricing plan.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
No, I think it’s more to encourage people to buy tickets ahead of time.
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
True, but that way it costs more to make a spur-of-the-moment decision.
I wonder if the team gets more money from people who buy tickets intending to show up, but then something comes up so they don’t (like unspent gift cards) or it costs them because people don’t know until shortly before that they have free time to go, and then don’t buy the tickets at all because they don’t like the price?
Impossible hypothetical, I suppose.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
While I don’t think it was intentional, that’s pretty much what happened. And couple that with parking going up last year and the generally outrageous cost of concessions, etc. as well.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
The Penguins did it right with the Student Rush program. It’s a model that all struggling teams should follow, especially, as you say, in an area with so many students.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
They do have student discount pricing. I don’t think it is advertised very well. Also, I believe a fair number or the people in attendance are students since it’s the students that like to tailgate before the game (typically).
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 6:26 PM PST up reply actions
The Pens program was leftover tickets at the door for $20 with a student ID, first come first server.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Eventually I have faith that hockey fans in NC will be as numerous, loyal and ruthless as college b-ball fans are. Southerners are skeptical by nature – let alone of a Yankee sport. If only they knew that half of Western Canada listens to country music they might find they have more common ground than they thought.
Now an interesting article would be why the Devils have bad attendance #‘s. I’m sure it has nothing to do with ole Lou’s penchant for defense.
Either way, I’m just thankful I’m not a Thrashers fan.
Eventually I have faith that hockey fans in NC will be as numerous, loyal and ruthless as college b-ball fans are. Southerners are skeptical by nature – let alone of a Yankee sport.
Eventually is how long? If they can’t sell out the barn a year after winning a cup, when, exactly will they be able to do so?
They’re consistently outdrawn by the Stars, Ducks and Sharks – teams that have had the same levels of success as the Hurricanes or worse, teams that are in non-traditional markets, and teams that have faced the same market-building struggles as the Hurricanes. Is “Southern Skepticism” really to blame for the difference? This is an honest question, If this skepticism is so rampant and take over a dozen (successful) years to overcome why should the NHL even consider the south in the first place?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
But how big are Dallas and the California markets? Quite a bit bigger than Raleigh! I’m also confused about your argument. In 2005-2006 and 2006-07 the Hurricanes outdrew the Ducks so I wouldn’t say the Ducks have been consistent. I’m also not at all convinced that they’ve had similar levels of success. I’m also not convinced that they’ve had similar success to Dallas and San Jose who have been very good consistently over many seasons. I think they’re very comparable to the kind of success Anaheim has had (i.e. more intermittent).
I’m also not sure why market success is defined as sellouts. Why can’t the market be improving and viable while still not selling out the building?
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Why can’t the market be improving and viable while still not selling out the building?
Good question. Lots of baseball teams as an example that draw well without selling out every game. To have more seats than you need most of the time means you have some extras for when the demand is there.
How was attendance in Raleigh during the 2009 playoffs? Sell-outs? Premium prices? That would pay a lot of bills if so.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
I’m also not sure why market success is defined as sellouts. Why can’t the market be improving and viable while still not selling out the building?
Well, if TV ratings are abysmal and they aren’t selling the place out…
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
To be fair, you don’t actually know the TV ratings (though I think your inference that they’re poor is probably correct). And like I said elsewhere, if success is defined as growth, then they’re succeeding. The business is growing. Attendance is growing, as is income and the team’s valuation. I think a 20,000 seat arena is likely a better business model for the Oilers than the current arena even if they only average 19,000 fans per game. Selling out isn’t necessarily important.
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
You realize you listed 3 markets that are huge in comparison to Carolina?
The Dallas is 4th at nearly 7 million people
Anaheim is part of the LA market, 2nd, which is over 12 million people, Anaheim itself is close to half a million inhabitant.
San Jose is the 10th most populous city in the US at over 1 million people.
The triangle is about 1.5 million and Raleigh itself is probably close to 450k.
For such a small market relative to the other 3 you mentioned, they actually do pretty well.
Having been to many arenas in the NHL, I would go after the Islanders, Thrashers, and Predators, long before Carolina.
Having been to many arenas in the NHL, I would go after the Islanders, Thrashers, and Predators, long before Carolina.
“Go after”?
In what way?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
If you’re angling as to why Gary Bettman went to such markets or puts faith in those “Southern” markets (sans the Isles), look at those 3 and Florida as prime examples of ones that have failed not only in terms of the on ice product, but in terms of attendance and committment by ownership to putting a quality product on the ice.
An more interesting inspection would be why doesn’t NJ, with arguably the greatest goalie in history and 3 Cups in 15 years and 4 Finals appearances, have better attendance being part of the largest market in the NHL?
If you’re angling as to why Gary Bettman went to such markets or puts faith in those "Southern" markets (sans the Isles), look at those 3 and Florida as prime examples of ones that have failed not only in terms of the on ice product, but in terms of attendance and committment by ownership to putting a quality product on the ice.
I’ve looked at franchise trouble in Columbus and attendance problems in Colorado already, so I’m not singling the Hurricanes out.
An more interesting inspection would be why doesn’t NJ, with arguably the greatest goalie in history and 3 Cups in 15 years and 4 Finals appearances, have better attendance being part of the largest market in the NHL?
The Oilers haven’t played New Jersey yet, so I haven’t had to write about them.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I guess I should clarify further: in what way does ownership provide any of those teams a glimmer of hope that they’ll go anywhere? Atlanta mortgaged their entire future in one playoff run that lasted all of 4 games.
Florida was great … in 1996. They also went the veteran route of building their team and paid the price for it since 1999. Honestly, is southern florida a place where hockey can grow?
Nashville is doing well within the confines of their spending limits and personnel, but honestly, are they a Stanley Cup contender? Is Nashville even a dynamic enough of a market to attract long-term hockey fans?
Raleigh to me has all of the built in advantages (large # of Eastern US/Canadian transplants, growing population, numerous rinks and grassroots hockey leagues, prior history with the ECHL, fairly affluent population, etc.) that put it in a good position to succeed. The hard part was for the franchise that had only 1 playoff series win to overcome their prior history, which they clearly did.
To me, that’s a huge victory unto itself. Coupled with the decent and growing attendance, and I think Karamanos made the right move (relative to the other option at the time, Columbus which is in a world of hurt financially).
I guess I should clarify further: in what way does ownership provide any of those teams a glimmer of hope that they’ll go anywhere? Atlanta mortgaged their entire future in one playoff run that lasted all of 4 games.
Florida was great … in 1996. They also went the veteran route of building their team and paid the price for it since 1999. Honestly, is southern florida a place where hockey can grow?
Don’t take this the wrong way, but comparing the Hurricanes to two of the worst five franchises in the league isn’t really making your case.
Raleigh to me has all of the built in advantages (large # of Eastern US/Canadian transplants, growing population, numerous rinks and grassroots hockey leagues, prior history with the ECHL, fairly affluent population, etc.) that put it in a good position to succeed. The hard part was for the franchise that had only 1 playoff series win to overcome their prior history, which they clearly did.
When will that manifest itself at the gate?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Stars, Ducks and Sharks
each market at least twice as big as Raleigh.
I’m tired of Canadians being upset that their favorite sport is growing into new areas. You think you’d be happy to get new fans. Otherwise it would just be curling. Something the rest of the world grows curious about every 4 years.
by DidJussiThat? on Feb 1, 2010 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
lazy blog
Your bitterness for a Stanley Cup Finals loss & terrible decision-making by your GM is no excuse for lazy research into attendance statistics for the smallest-market team in all of North American pro sports (after the Green Bay Packers). Raleigh doesn’t have the consistent numbers because it lacks the demographics, the corporate dollars, & the history compared to most other markets.
Why do Canadians so easily forget the passion & fervor the Oilers & Canes fans matched throughout their tense series in June 2006…chanting each others anthems…singing each others’ praises?
Accept that the Hurricanes franchise is a viable franchise & and a valuable franchise for this league & this sport. Accept that regardless of asses in the seats, this area supports the team’s success even in the worst of times. We rarely boo a team that has barely performed according to expectations and now are finally responding to our consistent support by not aiming to hide in the basement for a #1 pick. Losing 13 in a row is just unacceptable in this league regardless of injuries or the politics of the sport.
Also, you obviously understand nothing about the relationship between Charlotte & Raleigh so your opinion here is completely negligable. For comparison, think of Charlotte & Raleigh as Calgary & Edmonton respectively. Charlotte is the bigger city with more corporate $. Raleigh is the state capital with a few large research universities as its main attraction. Now imagine the Oilers were the only pro hockey franchise in Alberta & instead of the Flames, instead Calgary has your AHL feeder team. This would have have a major impact on the Oilers; as would an AHL team in Charlotte for the Hurricanes.
The constant whining about Southern hockey teams not attracting enough spectators in their stadium makes me question some Canadians’ brain capacity. Don’t be lazy…challenge your prejudices and come visit us. You may be impressed with what we offer our beautiful sport.
Your response was very emotional, I’ll give you that.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Losing 13 in a row is just unacceptable in this league regardless of injuries or the politics of the sport.
Ouch. Talk about hitting a nerve. You certainly will find no disagreement in these parts on that statement. 13 in a row, eh? Such is the pain we are going through right now. Hopefully it ends at 13, tonight.
Anyway, the suckiness of both our teams probably explains why there are grumpy folks in this thread. I say any fans who are still hanging in with the Oilers or the Canes deserve a lot of credit, not vituperation.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
This article is hardly worth commenting on.
You obviously have a slanted view and are lazy in both your research and your writing.
Bitter much?
by Mateos_Canes_Lamp on Feb 1, 2010 1:11 PM PST reply actions
Derek’s down to producing 80% of the site’s content. His laziness is, frankly, appalling.
Trust me, the e-mail list is full of bitter recriminations and nasty personal attacks that even I blush at repeating.
by Benjamin Massey on Feb 1, 2010 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
We have more fans in attendance on our blog than you have comments in the last month. Then again writing crap like this explains a lot. I’m sorry you didn’t beat us for the Cup in 06 (not really) but you can’t really be that jealous right?
Staal + Jussi = GOAL
Well, when we pissed off the Canucks fans, we got a lot more vituperative comments and hateful e-mail. You guys have a ways to go yet!
by Benjamin Massey on Feb 1, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
Your response was very emotional, I’ll give you that.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I'm sure that 2006 banner will look great...
when it’s hanging in the rafters in Quebec City or wherever else the Canes end up next.
I dream of writing an article like this (but with dick jokes).
by Benjamin Massey on Feb 1, 2010 6:44 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It was a pretty plain article. You just like the venom.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I don’t often comment on other teams’ blogs because it too often turns into childish and personal attacks. However, I decided to give it a go over here, hopefully I won’t regret it.
What is perhaps causing the most reaction to your article is that it is something we hear ad nauseum from almost every out of conference opponent. Despite it being a new story to your fans, it gets tiresome after a while to those of us following the team closely, especially when there are many other stories you could focus on.
First off, despite being in North Carolina for 12 years, the Hurricanes have only been in Raleigh for 10 and yes there has been great success in that time, but it has always been followed by unprecedented failure. It’s hard to lure fans away from other less expensive and more deeply ingrained attractions (of which the Triangle has many) without consistent success (i.e. making the playoffs more than every 3-4 years) especially when it’s a relatively new thing in the area.
You’re right, we don’t have the best attendance in the league (and probably never will), but that doesn’t qualify us as a struggling franchise. And frankly, I don’t truly think anyone on the outside looking in can fairly make that assessment until they’ve spent some time in the area.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
You’re right, we don’t have the best attendance in the league (and probably never will), but that doesn’t qualify us as a struggling franchise. And frankly, I don’t truly think anyone on the outside looking in can fairly make that assessment until they’ve spent some time in the area.
Great response, thanks. How are you measuring the team off-ice to determine that they are successful in that area?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
It’s not a scientific thing of course, but, for me, a lot of factors go into it. Things like people wearing t-shirts and hats, flying car flags, keeping magnets on their cars, etc. The large number of kids I see at games shows that a whole new generation of Hurricanes’ fans is coming.
People are still actively involved in the team. Despite the completely horrible season, we’re still not last in the league in terms of attendance which is a testament to the strength of the fanbase. Fans pushed the team all the way to ESPN’s number 2 professional sports franchise. The fact that you have people over here sticking up for the team is a great indicator as well. When no one cares enough to even bother fighting back that’s when the franchise is in trouble.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
It’s not a scientific thing of course, but, for me, a lot of factors go into it. Things like people wearing t-shirts and hats, flying car flags, keeping magnets on their cars, etc. The large number of kids I see at games shows that a whole new generation of Hurricanes’ fans is coming.
Is there a large contingent of young season ticket holders?
The fact that you have people over here sticking up for the team is a great indicator as well.
No it’s not. The smaller a population, the more defensive it tends to be :)
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
No way man! David Koresh was mainstream!
by Scott Reynolds on Feb 1, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
That’s about the most perfect reference for you to make.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Is there a large contingent of young season ticket holders?
No probably not, although there are exceptions (for example, me). The age demographic for the area is either college students (who can’t afford to go anywhere that isn’t free) or families. Families are more likely the ones with season ticket packages.
No it’s not. The smaller a population, the more defensive it tends to be :)
I didn’t say it was indication of the size of our market, but rather the strength of it, which is not determined solely by size.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
You are a clown
I live 3 and a half hours from the RBC Center and I take regular trips to go see the ‘Canes, even while they have been in the pits. You must not have done very much research on how our fans are. We are dedicated. We tailgate before games even while the team is not great. Sure, we do not sell out for our games, but at least our fans are true fans and not band-wagon fans. We are here to stay and no other teams’ fans are more dedicated than us. The amount of people that come from my city to ’Canes games are probably more than what the Oilers are seeing. So stop whining about not getting the cup from us. Obviously the better team won. We are, after all, the loudest building in the NHL.
The article isn’t making any argument with the passion and dedication of the fans – only with the number of them that go to games. And he wasn’t whining about not getting the cup Cup either.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
The tone of the article is definitely suggests that this is an inferior, and therefore undeserving, market for hockey. You can see how we respond to that. Here’s another post done by a Raleigh native now blogging for the Kings comparing his observations about hockey in Carolina.
GM and soothsayer of the Unofficial Hurricanes' fishtank.
Up this week: Introducing Sutter-fish.
therefore undeserving, market for hockey.
I’m sorry, I may have missed it – can you point to that in the article?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Word choice, guy. The tone of the piece. The caption for the photograph “carefully framed” suggests intentional deception. Why did you use the word “fawns” to describe Bettman’s treatment of us? That connotes “undeserving” and even a little jealousy.
And I don’t think anyone in Raleigh would agree that Bettman fawns, BTW. That would be Ovechkin and Crosby’s markets.
GM and soothsayer of the Unofficial Hurricanes' fishtank.
Up this week: Introducing Sutter-fish.
Again, if you could point out anything that I wrote that would suggest the team should move, or that Raleigh doesn’t deserve the team, that would be great.
I linked to the piece I did on Colorado in the beginning, which was much more harsh on the Avs than this is on the Canes. It seems like a bunch of defensive fans are projecting things that they WANT to see in the article.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
What does it matter the number of fans that are there? It’s the quality of fans that we have. Our fans are the best and most loyal. Screw filling out the arena. The players love it here because they have great support, even in limited numbers. Please tell me what other teams have fans that consistently go to the airport to meet the team as they come home.
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
the number of fans is important
Because it determines how well the team does at the gate. If a team only had 1000 fans but each of them spent $1000 on a ticket every game, it would be a different matter than a team that has 10,000 fans every game but each only spent $10 on a ticket.
The better a team does at the gate, the better they can afford to keep their good players, the more likely they can avoid the disruptions from ownership that constantly scrambles for money, and the more likely the team is to be stable for the long term.
A team that runs on a shoestring budget all the time because of poor attendance is a team that is always the subject of rumours of moves and shipping out stars when they get “too expensive” for the market. If a team can increase the fanbase enough they attain a level of stability that will last through the bad times and downturns. Owners don’t care about the devotion of fans unless there is a dollar value attached to it.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Have you specifically researched the attitude and history of management and ownership within the Carolina market? Seems like the Hurricanes are getting lumped in with Tampa Bay, Nashville, Phoenix and maybe Florida.
I put up a map of Canada in my piece yesterday because I suspect many in the Carolina market aren’t exactly sure where Edmonton or Alberta is…Just different world and different point of reference. Americans are not educated in school about Canada – to our detriment. But just how it is. I was wondering how many in Edmonton could identify North Carolina on a map? Maybe all of them, but I still kind of wondered if we really understand each other.
GM and soothsayer of the Unofficial Hurricanes' fishtank.
Up this week: Introducing Sutter-fish.
I was speaking of any team – whenever there is talk about moving and “fire sales” of expensive talent, however unfounded, there is a jumpiness around the fans and the team.
Solid attendance that has enough staying power to get a team through a slump means that ownership does not have to make panic moves, but can just tell the fans that slumps happen, next year will be better, and they won’t have to scramble for money to make payroll.
Whatever the size of the market, ownership uncertainty is bad – heck, even the Dallas Stars have dealt with some of that this year because of the owner’s involvement with a soccer team and trying to sell the Rangers to get some cash. And Dallas is a stable market.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Oh, and I’m not Canadian – I just slip sometimes and toss in an extra “u.” :)
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
I wanted to ask you, Baroque, but yesterday’s Haiti thread on Winging It in Motown didn’t seem the time or place: what is the state of Red Wings fan support with the double whammy of a struggling team (relatively speaking, obviously) and a cratered economy? Tradtionally, that’s as solid a market as there is stateside. But there are factors beyond everyone’s control, wherever you may be. It’s true in Raleigh and it’s true in Edmonton.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
well ...
I don’t go to many games myself, being a couple hours away – although I am going in late March with over 100 other people including a blogger we are importing from Brazil :) – but I would say it is pretty solid in spite of everything. The television ratings are good, and the front office has actually been pretty good about offering deals for smaller amounts of games. Nine game is the “Gordie Howe plan” and 19 is the “Steve Yzerman plan” so they have been as accommodating as a sports team can toward the fanbase. I think they are also offering payment plans for season tickets.
The best thing is that Illitch is a stable, long-term owner with several sources of real income as opposed to shuffling paper around to make account balances go up, so he can cope with a downturn without getting jumpy. It’s a long, long way from giving away cars to get people in the building, that’s for sure.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Thanks, Baroque. Excellent point about the stable ownership. Ours seems to be but is still proving itself, and we only hope to have what you have had for years.
The Mister Hockey and Stevie Y plans are an inspired idea, making connections to the team’s fabulous heritage in a positive way without being (at least in and of itself) over the top. I take it you’re going on the Terry Sawchuk plan? :D
Speaking of Gordie Howe, I’m planning to write a piece about him in the fairly near future. I only saw the last half of his career, which is to say just the last 16 seasons. An all-time personal favourite for many reasons.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
They do have a rich history, and unlike Chicago for all too many years they have embraced it. A friend went to a game and saw Ted Lindsay a few rows behind him, and though his friend kept telling him “dude, go shake his hand!” he was too nervous and just kept twitching around to see if he was still there.
I have heard that no pictures are permitted (understandable in a tabloid age), but if someone wants to say hello and shake his hand he is very gracious.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Terrible Ted
I only saw him very late in his career when he made a last comeback with the Wings around 1965 or so. Still made an impression. One of the game’s great warriors, and has aged fairly graciously into an elder statesman without losing his edge. I would love to shake his hand one day. I did get to shake Mister Hockey’s.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions
Question for Carolina fans
Does RBC Centre honour its New England / Hartford Whaler traditions? Gordie’s number was retired by the WHA-lers, is there a banner in Raleigh? A few others too … Rick Ley? John McKenzie?
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:29 PM PST up reply actions
No, we don’t honor our Whaler days. When Karmanos purchased the team, I believe the then owner neglected to release the rights to the Whaler logo and brand. So we essentially can’t make mention of our roots-no throwback jerseys, no Whaler t-shirts at the Eye, etc.
Now, whether that precludes us (in a legal sense) from honoring the retired numbers or not, I’m not sure. It may have been that the current owners decided to make a clean break when they weren’t allowed to use the Whaler brand.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
lucky man
There are some retired stars who are universally liked in just about all markets – I wish the NHL would get a clue and instead of having the commish present the Cup, because he gets booed EVERYWHERE, have one of the Stanley Cup posse have a speaking part and have him present the Cup, along with a retired star (with some relevance to the winning team if possible) to the captain instead. It would be like the Hockey Hall of Fame itself was recognizing the next Cup-winning captain and keep all the business crap entirely out of it.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Fantastic idea. You should sell it. :)
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
I have no problem with giving it away if they would use it.
I can’t help thinking how cool it would be to have the Cup on the ice, and the suits in their boxes far away, while some distinguised-voiced gentleman with white gloves says a few words about the history of the Cup, and then he and (for example) Gordie Howe pose for the picture and then hand it over to the new captain.
Much better than lawyers or politicians being involved on the ice.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
I repeat, a fantastic idea. The tongue in cheek suggestion to sell it was because these bozos would probably pay more attention to the idea if it had a price tag on it. That’s the only language they understand.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:56 PM PST up reply actions
also
They have been running commercials with the tagline “Hockeytown – No Limits” which (surprisingly enough for most sports marketing ideas) don’t actually stink, playing up the more regional appeal of the team. There have always been a fair number of Red Wings fans in Windsor, but Toledo, Ohio is also another good location to focus on, as the Detroit Tigers AAA affiliate is based there as well. And with the Grand Rapids Griffins AHL team in the western part of the state, that stretches the interest in the other direction as well.
It’s been tough for Detroit fans no doubt, but they love their sports teams (even the woeful Lions, although I have no idea why) and at least give moral support even if they can’t afford anything else at the moment. What makes it tough is the pointing and laughing at the unemployment rate from fans of other teams – it has nothing to do with hockey and is just cruel. Anyone lucky enough to have a stable job and not have a friend or family member worried about being out of work should just shut up before the universe notices and decides to punish their hubris.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Have you specifically researched the attitude and history of management and ownership within the Carolina market? Seems like the Hurricanes are getting lumped in with Tampa Bay, Nashville, Phoenix and maybe Florida.
Can you point to this in the article or in Baroque’s comments? Baroque and I have been very forthcoming with our points, yet you continue to try to read some innuendo or secret meaning to what we’re writing.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Indeed. The only person doing even a half-assed job of defending the attendance chart is Scott…and Oilers writer.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I really do not see how having an average capacity of 86.1% is bad…. considering everyone thinks that the Hurricanes are a bad team. Sure, this season has not been the best for attendance, but look at the teams’ standings. And yet our attendance is a heck of a lot better than other teams that happen to be doing better.
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
ORLY?
We are, after all, the loudest building in the NHL
As an Oilers fan living in Greensboro, I got a kick out of that. Surely, you can’t be serious.
Remembering this great post from Jibblescribbits last summer
From an Av’s blogger: Of fandom Still makes me laugh at the absurdity of these comparisons.
Not sure where Edmonton comes out, but the Caniac Nation is a proud one. And we don’t write articles ridiculing our players either.
Must be why so many players are happy to sign here. It’s a great place to play and watch hockey.
GM and soothsayer of the Unofficial Hurricanes' fishtank.
Up this week: Introducing Sutter-fish.
Check Baroque’s comment here. You and others are conflating your passion for your team with the number of like-minded people that watch them on television and show up at the arena.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Raleigh is a growing hockey market
As previously mentioned above, Carolina has started to grow its fanbase. I believe that your article is awful and does not even consider where hockey is coming from in North Carolina. Before this team came to Raleigh I didn’t even know the first thing about hockey. When the team was playing in Greensboro there were maybe 2,000-3,000 people at some of the games and many of those fans were cheering for the opposing team. In 10 seasons in Raleigh and 12 seasons in the state of North Carolina I believe our attendance is getting better and better. I remember the 2002-2003 season before we drafted Eric Staal with the second selection there would not have been 7,000 people in the arena when there was a snowstorm earlier in the day. You also left out that the Triangle is one of hockey’s smallest markets only having a population of 1.5 million people This team is succeeding in the south and will continue to succeed. I have little doubt that in 20 years this team will still be around and will have capacity crowds night after night. Meanwhile, in 20 years the Oilers will probably be throwing games so they can have another first overall pick.
You can use “actions” and “rec” to make an actual plus 1. A comment with three recs is highlighted.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Fact based Fool
Zona, you’re just one of those snobby Canadian Ice Hockey fans.
You should take you’re so-called facts and stick them up your maple syrup-stained butt.
On a more serious note
of the many spaghetti-against-the-wall NHL franchises
I think Raleigh has the best chance of sticking
Good owner, Well run
But frankly, like the others, those ’Canes are skating up hill.
Good owner, Well run
The ownership situation is really the only reason that the team isn’t just another Florida, Tampa or Atlanta.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I think it’s cute that you guys are accusing an established, savvy fanbase of being “jealous and bitter” four years later in your quest to stay relevant. Bragging about 1 championship? It’s adorable. A casual observer might suggest someone is “bitter and jealous” but it’s not Oilers fans – our franchise might be taking their licks right now but they’re still not an afterthought franchise that will be in another Canadian city in 10 years.
As for being the “loudest building in the NHL” when they change the names of Rexall Place and Bell Centre?
I’m not entirely agreeing with Derek’s take here that it’s a bottom-tier market, I think there are lots of worse markets and franchises than Carolina. While we in Canada are used to routinely selling out all games with people paying annual fees for the privilege of staying on the season ticket waiting list, in a market where hockey isn’t in the citizenry’s blood, 92% or even 86% of capacity is not to be sneezed at. Carolina fans, tell me: Are those honest numbers? Has the building been that full of actual people over the years? I honestly don’t recall seeing acres of empty seats in RBC Centre as one frequently sees in points south.
I do think the ‘09-10 numbers are problematic, but obviously there is a “bad team” effect. I’m sure if we counted on more walk-up traffic / single-game sales here in Edmonton there’d be empty seats by now. How much has the economy affected that?
I will say on general terms that I and many other Canadian** hockey fans harbour some bitterness in general to Bettman’s markets, all nine of which have come in south of the 40th parallel. (** which doesn’t include the author under attack here, who is American) Three of the four WHA teams from the merger have been bundled up and moved without being replaced in their old markets; whereas failed NHL markets like Minneapolis, Denver and Atlanta have all been granted second chances. I am certainly not opposed in principle to the growth of the game, and welcome new or recent fans of the sport wherever you may live. It is an unfortunate truth that several of those southerly franchises are on shaky ground, although Carolina is far from the bottom of that particular list.
Finally, a question for any Carolina fans who may have been lucky enough to attend 2006 SCF Game 7 in person … is it true that the fans stood for the entire game? That’s what they were saying on TV, but it was hard to tell how widespread that was.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
Yes, we were indeed standing the whole time during Game 7. It happened quite a bit in the last playoffs as well.
by ASUhockeychick on Feb 1, 2010 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
Outstanding. (pardon the pun)
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
I’m off to the game-day thread, now that it’s 1-1 already. Feel free to drop in!
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 1, 2010 7:01 PM PST up reply actions
Are those honest numbers? Has the building been that full of actual people over the years? I honestly don’t recall seeing acres of empty seats in RBC Centre as one frequently sees in points south.
I think they are honest numbers. Prior to this season, there haven’t been any games that I can think of that had the same kind of vacancy issues that games in Atlanta or Florida have (now those markets have attendance issues). This season, we’re seeing some issues with attendance. Part of that is due to the state of the team and part of that is due to the economy which I think someone asked about earlier. In general, the Raleigh area isn’t any worse off than other parts of the country. However, the key demographics for the team (college students and families) are obviously having a hard time justifying spending that much money for a luxury item.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
That was me who asked about the sconomy also. Thanks for answering both questions.
Good luck with your team the rest of the season. I still can’t figure out what they were doing down at the bottom of the standings.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Feb 2, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
The tone of the article was very geared toward inferring that Raleigh and the Canes are inferior. First of all the year after we won the Cup we were not very good at all, and you claim that the years after that we were in the playoff race right toward the end and should’ve had better attendance. You don’t seem to realize that for the first few months of both ‘08-’09 and ‘07-’08 we were terrible. It took two HUGE late season surges to miss the playoffs by a game one year and then make it the next. If any other southern market like Tampa/Florida/Nashville/Atlanta was having a near last place finish season then they would have absolutley embarrassing attendance numbers.
The Canes have a still growing fanbase, each time we’ve had a big season and gotten more fans – we haven’t been able to keep those new fans interested because we’ve never had two great seasons back to back. Also those in markets like Edmonton need to realize that while the Canes fanbase is still developing – hockey will never be number one here. It’s taken a long time for a lot of people to finally accept hockey enough to make a major contribution in the way of season tickets or something like that. If you ask a large majority of the people here if they’d like to go pay money to watch a hovering around .500 hockey team or go pay money to watch NC State, Wake Forest, Duke or UNC play football or basketball you’ll get the collegiate answer every single time. We’ll never have a ridiculous sell out streak, but we are a fanbase that will support its team through thick and thin and absolutely love the Canes. And yes we did stand up all the way through Game 7, everyone.
Opinion from a third party
I’m an Islander fan, but i spent 4 years at Duke and went to numerous games over the last 4 years at the RBC Center. That said, i think there are parts of this article that are very misleading.
The first is the reliance on percentages. Rexall Place has a capacity that is 2000 fans less than Carolilna’s RBC Center. Now there is a point here…that if you guys had a bigger stadium you would fill up. I’m not arguing that (You probably would). But considering that every year before this one, except the first post-lockout season, the team had more attendance in total than the Oilers.
Now what does this say? Carolina has a decent attendance, but arena that is probably too big. The cost of this probably isn’t that big of a problem, since the stadium is used for NC State BBall and other events even DURING hockey season.
Moreover, attendance is complicated by the fact that Carolina is in a weird location for a hockey team. I’m not talking about being in the South. As others have mentioned, it’s not in a city/location that’s got a lot of permanent residents; instead it’s in a college town location (Duke-NC State and UNC each being 15 minutes away). If the team was in Charlotte, then the attendance might be an issue, but in the Triangle, where the young people to advertise too are students, often without much money, that attendance is pretty good.
Finally, compare the Canes to my team, my Isles. Our attendance is currently in shambles, due to the team (though that’s getting better) and due to the location of the stadium. Yeah the RBC Center and Rexall Place have higher capacity, but well…below 80% in a stadium as small as the Colliseum is pretty cruddy.
Now that’s struggling at the gate. As opposed to 16 K a night. It might not be sellouts, but its pretty good. (except for this year)

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