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Fighting for Points, Part I: Do teams that fight more, win more?

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Photo by:  Resolute via Wikimedia Commons

I'm going to let you in on a secret: I like hockey fights.  I'm an educated, liberal, mostly pacifistic kind of guy, but a couple of hockey players throwing punches at each other gets my adrenalin pumping as much as the next guy's.

The key words there are "hockey players".  When, because of some development in the game, two hockey players - that is, men capable skating, puck-handling, and having some impact on the flow of a hockey game - drop their gloves, that's exciting.  When two goons fight each other, not because of any development in the game, but because they need to justify their respective presences in the lineup and fighting is the only way that either can even pretend to do so, that's idiotic.  I want my fights to be part of the hockey game, not a sideshow to it.  Goons don't help a team win games.

At least, that's my take.  A lot of people have contrary views.  Tom Renney is apparently one of them, which is why the Oilers are now spending a roster spot on Steve MacIntyre.  The school of thought that suggests using roster spots on non-hockey players like MacIntyre is, as I understand it, that they're there to protect the skill players: opposing players know that they'd better not mess with Ales Hemsky, or they'll have to answer to Big Steve.

After the jump, I'll start my examination of who's right, me or Tom Renney.

Star-divide

The first question worth answering in this evaluation is the one posed in this post's title: do teams that fight more, win more?  Fortunately, that question is pretty easily answered: a team's annual fighting majors are available at hockeyfights.com, and a team's annual points are available at nhl.com.  I put these numbers for every team for every year since the lockout (i.e. a total of 150 data points) into an OpenOffice spreadsheet (yeah, I'm poor) and checked how they correlated.  Here's the scatterplot:

5275004276_81eee96519_medium

The resulting coefficient?  -0.19.  It is a hard fact that, on average, teams that have fought more since the lockout have won less, not more.

There are a few reasons that this could be misleading, however.  The first is that it doesn't take into account changes in the game since the lockout.  As Lisa writes here, the number of fights per season has changed over the years, even since the lockout.  There has been a marked increase in fighting since the 2005-2006 season, when teams fought an average of 30.6 times each, to the 2008-2009 season, when they fought an average of 48.6 times each (the figure dipped slightly in 2009-2010, to 47.4 fights per team).  The average number of points per team as, not surprisingly, remained pretty much constant, but because of the Bettman Point there's been some change there too.

To adjust for this, instead of looking at a team's absolute number of fights and points, I looked at the percentage from which each of these deviated from the league's average in that year.  Here's the resulting scatterplot:

5275058694_17797157f9_medium

This scatterplot isn't pretty, but it is interesting (at least, I think so).  While all four quadrants are populated, the least populated and the least extreme in its values appears to be the lower left quadrant, where are found teams that both fight and win less than the league average.  This provides some support to the idea that fighting doesn't lead to winning, but not as much as the correlation of this data does: -0.24.

(For anybody who's wondering about the extreme data points, that one in the upper left is the 2005-2006 Detroit Red Wings, who fought 80% less than the league average and had 36% more points - since the lockout, Detroit has consistently fought far less than the league average and gotten far more points.  That far right point is the 2006-2007 Ducks, who were both epically thuggish and highly successful.  That one in the bottom right is the 2005-2006 Blues, who would probably have been more comfortable on the MMA circuit than in the NHL.)

Thus far, I've been treating this as being a case of 150 completely separate teams, which of course it isn't: it's thirty teams with five seasons each.  Might the data look different if we looked at this on a team by team basis?  To find out, I decided to look at teams' change from year to year.  That is, when a given team becomes more pugilistic than it was in the previous season, does it generally become more or less successful?

The data I used were a team's absolute deviation from the average in each case.  Note that because I'm only working with five years of data, this reduces the number of data points from 150 to 120.  Here's what I found:

5275099590_7389a528e8_medium

In this plot, points in the upper left represent teams that cut down on the fighting and became more successful (more Detroit-esque), those in the upper right represent teams that stepped up the fighting and become more successful (more Anaheim-esque), those in the lower right represent teams that stepped up the fighting and became worse at hockey (more St. Louis-esque), and those in the lower left represent those that both fought and won less than in the previous year (more, I don't know, corpse-esque).

This plot's a little less revealing to the eye than the last one, but it appears to me that the lower left is again underpopulated, which means that most teams that decreased the fighting became more, rather than less, successful.  The lower right column looks pretty busy, which implies that teams that fought more than in the previous year generally wound up with fewer points.  That's by eye.  The correlation is -0.16, which provides more support to the idea that fighting does not lead to team success, but rather the opposite.

What I would dearly love to have done next is compare teams' fighting to their man games lost due to injury, to test the hypothesis that having fighters around leads to fewer injuries.  Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anywhere that I can get figures on man games lost due to injury.  According to Mirtle, they're available on the league's media website (which raises the question of why they'd do the work of compiling and posting them without making them available for public consumption - media outlets don't pay for access to the media website, do they?), but I obviously don't have access to that.  If anyone knows where I can get those numbers, please let me know.

This post has gone to show that teams that fight more, win less.  That doesn't settle the debate.  First of all, correlation does not imply causation, though I think when you've got correlations this consistently negative that's pretty good evidence that there isn't some positive causation working beneath the surface.  Besides that, I set out to test, not whether fighting helped teams win, but whether carrying goons helped teams win.  I'll examine that in my next post (due: at some point), but I'd love to have your help: what, statistically, makes a goon?  I'll run the numbers using a few different definitions, but my thinking right now is that a definition could incorporate elements like number of fights (this is pretty much essential), weight (we often hear about the need to carry a "super heavyweight" like MacIntyre, rather than a middleweight like Stortini), and time on ice (which seems to me the best indicator of whether a player is there exclusively to fight, or whether he's also there to contribute other things to the game).  How do you think "goon" should be defined, statistically?  Let me know in the comments.

Comment 27 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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No real suggestion here. Just commenting to say it was a interesting article. Looking forward to part 2.

by dohfOs on Dec 19, 2010 6:06 PM MST reply actions  

Fantastic article! Great timing too. It is basically feels like continuation from Lisa’s article.

according to me a goon is someone with more fighting majors than points averaging less than 6 mins of EV ice time/game for a forward and less than 10 mins ES time for a D-man.
Though I dont know why teams keep a defenseman for a goon. That is actually putting them a defenseman short for 5 mins.

by SumOil on Dec 19, 2010 6:52 PM MST reply actions  

Yeah, it’s funny, I was planning this post during a seven hour drive from Fredericton to Montreal last night, and then I arrived here, pulled up C&B, and saw that Lisa had started posting on much the same thing – I was glad that she took a different approach than I did, or I’d have had nothing to post.

Thanks for your thoughts; I’m not really sure the ES thing is significant, because how many goons get special teams time? “More fighting majors than points” might be a bit stringent, but I think we’re mostly on the same page. I agree that not many defensemen are likely to qualify, since even the ones who fight a lot are usually taking a regular shift (since what team voluntarily chooses to run with five “real” defensemen?).

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 19, 2010 7:02 PM MST up reply actions  

http://www.nhl.com/ice/app?service=page&page=playerstats&fetchKey=20112ALLAASAll&viewName=timeOnIce&sort=avgEvenStrengthTOIPerGame&pg=24
you will see most of the goons in this list and subsequent pages.

John Scott is a good D man currently employed by Chicago. However, he might be playing forward I am not sure.

by SumOil on Dec 19, 2010 7:24 PM MST up reply actions  

scratch the good part idk why i wrote tht adjective

by SumOil on Dec 19, 2010 7:26 PM MST up reply actions  

oh i meant “goon Dman” lol

by SumOil on Dec 19, 2010 7:26 PM MST up reply actions  

I went looking for injuries caused due to fighting, and I put in a fair bit of effort into that endeavour but couldn’t find the info anywhere. Just like suspensions and fines handed our every year, not something that people keep track of very well apparently. Or, this information just isn’t being made public.

Interesting take on fights. I didn’t see many trends except in the overall sense. I do find it interesting that you note that Detroit doesn’t fight much anymore. I wonder if that began after Probert went to the Blackhawks or if that is a more recent turn of events.

Thanks for pulling this information together. It’s interesting that we were both thinking about a similar story.

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by Lisa McRitchie on Dec 20, 2010 8:14 AM MST reply actions  

I actually wasn’t so much interested in injuries caused by fighting, but in overall man games lost due to injury. The hypothesis of people who support fighting seems to be that goons are needed to prevent injuries to skill players. I strongly suspect that’s nonsense, but I can’t find the stats to back that up.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 11:12 AM MST up reply actions  

Injuries to Goons

You would also have to make sure the injuries you count are not the ones incurred on the goons themselves, rather you would only count the “useful” players injured.

by Jonathan Froese on Dec 20, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, “man games lost due to injury” isn’t the perfect measure for how injuries affect a team, but I think it’s probably the best we have. Of course, we actually don’t have it, so for the time being that’s academic.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 2:12 PM MST up reply actions  

The only real comment I would have to add is that maybe teams that win less, fight more, rather than teams that fight more, win less. I’m sure it’s a little bit of both, but that that it could be both cause issues with the correlation. I’m struggling to think of a decent way to normalize for this in a simple straight forward manner that would be in the same vein as your analysis. Maybe you could split the data in to two (or more) groups based on teams that fell below the average points that given year and teams that fell above the average.

I’m looking forward to the next piece though.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Dec 20, 2010 12:26 PM MST reply actions  

I think you’re right about the causal relationship – I can easily imagine that the teams that fight the most are the ones that keep falling behind 4-1, and then start a fight in an effort to provide that mythical “spark” (although presumably the teams that are beating them 4-1 would be good teams – my hypothesis there supposes that a bad team will fall behind 4-1 more often than any given good team will be ahead 4-1). That’s one of the reasons that I’m hoping looking at which teams ice goons will be helpful – it’s one thing to fall behind a lot and fight as a result, but it’s another to ice a lineup designed to fight.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 12:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed completely. I just quickly assume (correctly or incorrectly) that less competitive teams tend to ice a more combative lineup. Teams still need to generate revenue from ticket sales, and the casual fans still enjoy fights, so I think there is a tendency to dress a lineup more conducive to a physical style when a team is less competitive. Granted I have no proof of this, and it’s a huge assumption on my part, just something to think about.

I love where you are trying to go with this, especially as someone who supports a team who signed a goon to a 3 year $3.3mil contract over the off season. I think looking specifically at teams that ice goons is definitely a step in the right direction.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Dec 20, 2010 1:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Sure – and if teams want to say that they’re icing goons to provide some entertainment for the fans in a season that they’re team’s going to lose a lot, well, that would have the virtue of honesty. I just have trouble with the claim that they’re doing it to help the team win.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 1:55 PM MST up reply actions  

“their”, not “they’re”. Jesus.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 1:57 PM MST up reply actions  

You were right the first time.

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by George E. Ays on Dec 20, 2010 2:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry, I meant the second “they’re” – “they’re team’s going to lose a lot”. The first “they’re” was fine.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 2:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Haha I definitely agree.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Dec 20, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Quality over Quantity?

The outcome of the fights may have a different effect than simply the number of fights. My reasoning is that the morale boost/deterrence factor of a dominant fight would be much greater than that of a “lost” fight. Is the hockeyfights.com voting trustworthy enough to use statistically? I don’t know.

by Jonathan Froese on Dec 20, 2010 1:13 PM MST reply actions  

i have a name for people who insist on having a designated fighting goon: Football Fans

the difference between a hockey player and a football player is specialization. In Football there is one shmuck who’s allowed to throw and he isn’t supposed to do too much more than that… there’s a group of shmucks who’s job it is to run like raped ape’s and catch a ball. Again, not much else is asked of these guys.
Each position is specified to a role, and often a certain skill set allows a sub par athlete to acheive superstardom

Now when you apply that kind of ideology to hockey players, the result is the Boogaard contract.
Someone who can barely skate, but by god can they beat the piss out of another guy.

It just doesn’t make sense. In hockey you don’t have a running back, a full back, quarter back or a cornerback… you have six positions with subtle differences (ok, so maybe the goal position is a little specialized)

Hockey has become so Americanized that some GM’s are duped into thinking that teams need these specialty players… when they don’t.
Hockey used to be played by “real Canadian boys” and what i mean by that is the players did it all. They thundered down the ice, they dug for the puck when it got dirty, they dropped the gloves when someone got lippy, they scored goals, they set up goals and they prevented the other guys from getting goals. Smash mouth hockey, and not that bullshit toronto smash mouth crap that Burke is peddling.

A smart GM would avoid getting a Boogaard and start investing in complete hockey players, and if thats against their “philosophy” they should stop Americanizing MY game and go GM in the NFL.

by Bananahammer on Dec 20, 2010 2:22 PM MST reply actions  

perhaps unintentional racism aside, there’s a reason why there aren’t guys who can fight and play. fighters have gotten much better at fighting, and non-fighters have gotten much better at hockey. the days of a bob probert are mostly over.

by Triumph44 on Dec 20, 2010 6:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Catch 22 here though.

If the goons were gone, some of the guys who can play hockey (and also aren’t bad at fighting) would now be that type of player. They’d be fighting more (preferably for legit reasons), and some would be better at it than others.

In theory, there is little difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is!

by dawgbone98 on Dec 21, 2010 10:19 AM MST up reply actions  

the problem is complete hockey players are too valuable

If a GM can locate a player who can skate, score, defend, hit, AND fight, in very short order he won’t be fighting at all. He will be paid $7 million each year to score 30 goals and get 100 points in 20 minutes of ice time every game, and the LAST thing the team will want is him sitting in the box for five minutes doing nothing or risking a broken goal-scorer’s hand in a fight when some cheap, little-talent goon can do that.

If a goon breaks a hand in a fight he won’t be missed; if a good hockey player who also is capable of fighting does the same, the team will suffer, it may fall out of a playoff spot, coaches see their jobs get less stable overnight, etc. Hockey players, the complete ones, are paid large salaries to play HOCKEY and not to fight. Fighting with that financial commitment is not smart, it is a needless risk of a valuable team asset.

Random Ramblings from a Somewhat Scattered Mind

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Dec 25, 2010 5:48 AM MST up reply actions  

I’m not convinced. All you have shown is a very week, negative correlation. With that amount of variability in all your data there is no way your negative correlations are close to significant.

I do think you are going in the right direction by looking at each team as a independent point though.

by Bar South on Dec 20, 2010 8:22 PM MST reply actions  

You’re not convinced of what? That, since the lockout, teams that have fought more have, on average, won less? Because that’s i. the conclusion of this post, and ii. kind of indisputable.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 20, 2010 9:52 PM MST up reply actions  

I’m not convinced that, since the lockout, teams that fight more win less. The small negative correlation you have shown is disputable. It could be an artifact of the large amount of variation in your data or the result of not analyzing the data correctly (however, I think you are on the right track when you treat each team as having 5 different seasons in the last section).

I’m not saying your conclusion is not correct. All I am saying is that the data and the way you have analyzed it is not convincing.

I do look forward to part 2 though because this is an interesting subject and hypothesis.

by Bar South on Dec 21, 2010 8:09 AM MST up reply actions  

If you don’t agree that, since the lockout, teams that fight more have, on average, won less, there’s not really much point in engaging with you further, because you’ve shown yourself to be immune to data.

by sarcasticidealist on Dec 21, 2010 9:49 AM MST up reply actions  

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