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Will Hall Help?

Tampa Bay Lightning goaltender Antero Nittymaki (30), of Finland, makes a save on a first period shot by Atlanta Thrashers left winger Evander Kane (9) during an NHL hockey game Saturday, Jan. 23, 2010 in Tampa, Fla. (AP Photo/Chris O'Meara)

More photos » Chris O'Meara - AP

about 1 month ago: Tampa Bay Lightning goaltender Antero Nittymaki (30), of Finland, makes a save on a first period shot by Atlanta Thrashers left winger Evander Kane (9) during an NHL hockey game Saturday, Jan. 23, 2010 in Tampa, Fla. (AP Photo/Chris O'Meara)

I don't believe in tanking and I don't believe in the Dive for Five. To quote an American coach of some repute, you play to win the game.

But let's face it, it's gonna happen with or without the Oilers' cooperation. The Oilers stink, and they may stink at historical levels. They may '93 Senators stink. That sort of stink doesn't wash off easy. On this, the day when the Carolina Hurricanes have finally relegated the Oilers to the basement in which they belong, it's worth asking ourselves if our inevitable lottery pick will be Patrick Kane turning around the Blackhawks, or Alexei Yashin.

So far this season, Taylor Hall is averaging a quite good 1.76 points per game. Tyler Seguin is averaging a slightly better 1.80 points per game. Neither of these are bad numbers for a kid in his draft year in the CHL, even by the standards of offense-first forwards of average size meant to go in the the top three overall of the NHL draft. Both Hall and Seguin lead their teams in scoring by wide margins, which is also what you want to see: they're not building their stats on the backs of their teammates, letting us get a better picture of what they can do.

Some people go in for Gabe Desjardins's NHL equivalencies when talking about these things. In this case, there's no need to resort to such opaque math. Offense-first CHL forwards are pretty common high draft choices, so we need only compare Hall and Seguin to some of those picked out of earlier drafts who fall into the same category.

Like all bad mathematicians, I make it sound so simple!

Star-divide

Well, first off,. here's the bad news. Running the numbers, neither Hall nor Seguin is a generational talent like Sidney Crosby. The Kid rang up a 2.71 PPG in his draft year, and although the Rimouski Oceanic were eventual Memorial Cup finalists that number is still out of skew with what his teammates were producing.

Okay, you're looking at the monitor as if I'm deranged. Taylor Hall isn't Sidney Crosby. I think we knew that. Can we please get on with it?

Would it help if I said neither of them are John Tavares either? Once overhyped as the Next One, Tavares had his best year of junior at age sixteen and regressed since then, still snaring the first overall pick last year almost by default. Tavares posted a 1.86 PPG his draft year, and currently with the New York Islanders his play has been not bad, but certainly not anything to write home about. It's early days but in his first season on the Island Tavares certainly isn't leading New York to any playoff charges.

They also fall perilously short of 2007's sixth overall pick, a fellow you may have heard of by the name Sam Gagner. Gagner, currently a little-regarded second-line centre with the worst team in the NHL, posted 2.23 points-per-game with the London Knights that season. But that gaudy total comes with an asterisk, as even on his own team he was well behind first overall selection Patrick Kane, who put up a 2.50 PPG his draft year.

Now, as we all know, the London Knights are weird. They play their best players until their hearts explode and an awful lot of players with awfully gaudy point totals have come out of there and proceeded to do nothing (hell, we drafted one of them). It almost seemed fairer to excluse Gagner and Kane and focus on Jakub Voracek, but the comparison had to be made. Both Hall and Seguin are comfortably clear of Voracek's draft year number of 1.46.

The Terrible T[a]ylors are also clear of the second-highest-scoring CHL forward from the Crosby year, Anaheim Ducks winger Bobby Ryan and his 1.61 PPG. Ryan isn't quite a fair comparison, as he is bigger and stronger than either Hall or Seguin, but he's having a successful enough start to his career even if it's taken him a while to get there. When we draft first or second overall, though, I think we're all hoping for more than a good second-line forward out of this.

Unfortunately, that's roughly the bracket Hall and Seguin fall into. They're ahead of guys who really struggled as teenage NHLers (Evander Kane, with a 1.57 PPG, or Gilbert Brule with a 1.24) but behind the serious impact players like Patrick Kane, Crosby, or even Tavares. When we draft Hall or Seguin, we're going to get a pretty good player who can do some nice things and who wouldn't kill himself if he played on the 2009-10 Oilers and faced soft minutes.

But that's all we're going to get.

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an awful lot of players with awfully gaudy point totals have come out of there and proceeded to do nothing (hell, we drafted one of them).

You talking about Schremp or Syvret?

Btw, would be interested on your take on Steven Stamkos vs. the current draft class.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries

"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 25, 2010 10:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Stamkos vs Hall

If the stats are correct, Stamkos had 105 points in 61 games, or 1.72 ppg. That puts him a bit behind Hall, however Hall is projected to get 47 goals (if he plays 63 games) and Stamkos got 58 in his final year, so it may be a wash.

I think we all realize we’re not talking about Ovechkin or Crosby here, but hopefully a good 1st line pro who can take the puck to the net and put it in.

by MyBestGuess on Jan 25, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Syvret covered the bet. Schremp, not so much.

by Benjamin Massey on Jan 25, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Oilers should be looking at Seguin first, Fowler second, and Hall third.

by godot10 on Jan 25, 2010 11:42 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think they should put the whole team on a bus, take them to Boston, and tell Peter Chiarelli to take whichever players he wants in exchange for Toronto’s pick. Each player can have his cap hit on one of those number cards that are used for marathons. He doesn’t even have to say who he’s taking until after the bus pulls away if he doesn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.

Seriously, if there’s any chance of getting that pick Tamblowe should do it. Just about anything short of Gagner or Hemsky should be in play; it’s not every year a team that had legitimate aspirations of a Cup (in September, at least) also has a top-three pick at their disposal to acquire rentals and assets. A highly-regarded rookie doesn’t always contribute to an already decent team anyways (see: Spezza, Jason). Even at 18 Fowler would be the best defensive prospect in the system instantly, and could play in the top six without doing any worse than the other current options.

by edm_euler on Jan 25, 2010 12:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Now, as we all know, the London Knights are weird. They play their best players until their hearts explode and an awful lot of players with awfully gaudy point totals have come out of there and proceeded to do nothing (hell, we drafted one of them).

Who are all of these players? By my count the “top billed” Knights from 2001 to 2007 are Rick Nash, Corey Perry, Dave Bolland, Rob Schremp, Sergei Kostitsyn, Patrick Kane and Sam Gagner. All of those guys have played in the NHL which is a pretty darn good track record. Schremp is clearly the worst one and even he’s playing a regular shift in the NHL right now. Considering the failure rate for top forty picks these seven guys are a darn good track record. The whole “London numbers are screwy! Don’t trust them!” doesn’t seem to match London’s track record of developing very good hockey players who bring a lot of offence with them to the NHL.

by Scott Reynolds on Jan 25, 2010 12:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Stamkos and Stuff

After reading the article (and prior to reading the comments) I had a couple of thoughts:

1. Every year there’s a number one draft choice, and he’s built up like there’s no tomorrow. But talent like Tavares is rare (72 Goals!), and guys like Crosby even more so. I think a lot of people assume that the top draft picks going to be impact players. Most often they aren’t. I think Hall is going to fall into that category. He’s a great talent, but not exceptional. I hope I’m wrong…

2. That being said, reading about the analysis from a PPG standpoint, I immediately thought of Stamkos. Sure enough, there he is with 1.7 PPG, very similar to Hall’s totals. Sure, Hall isn’t going to get 60 goals this year, but looking at the way Stamkos is developing, I think teams would be happy with Stamkos minus some talent.

by tatsuke on Jan 25, 2010 4:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Teams should be happy with Stamkos minus some talent, the problem is that most ‘fans’ aren’t happy with development curves that don’t look like Sidney Crosby from first round-top five picks.

This is also followed by the fact that not every fan can appreciate the whole mentoring and development of players, i.e. seeing that young players are developed and mentored well at every level and being eased into their full time job at whatever level they top out at. I’m sure people who follow Detroit and NJ can appreciate it, as do I as a Canucks fan at this point. One of the problems of the Oilers seems to be that their mentoring and development system seems to be on the fritz, at least that is the impression I get from the Oilosphere. Without that being fixed, I don’t see how picks who aren’t immediate stars can really impact the club positively.

by rsm on Jan 25, 2010 4:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

One of the problems of the Oilers seems to be that their mentoring and development system seems to be on the fritz,

At all levels, rsm. The Oil Kings are in last, lost their last 14. Springfield is in last, lost 15 in a row in December. The Oilers are last, and they are a mess. Combine that with two straight seasons of hints and innuendo concerning a giant schism in the locker room between Moreau and the kids and there is no development organization in Edmonton.

It’s amazing that Gagner is developing like he is.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jan 25, 2010 8:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fowler

Funny because I think that Fowler will be the best of them, but that’s pure gut instinct. If I were a GM, I’d take Fowler and probably get lynched by my fanbase.

Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jan 25, 2010 8:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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Northwest Standings

GP W L OTL PT
Vancouver 71 44 24 3 91
Colorado 70 40 24 6 86
Calgary 70 35 26 9 79
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Edmonton 70 21 42 7 49

(updated 3.19.2010 at 6:06 AM PDT)

21 - 42 - 7

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Stat

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Defense

TOI/G:

Horcoff (19:25)

Gilbert (22:10)

ESTOI/G:

Horcoff (14:29)

Grebeshkov (17:16)

Points:

Penner (53)

Visnovsky (32)

Goals:

Penner (26)

Visnovsky (10)

Assists:

Penner (27)

Visnovsky (22)

EV+/- /15

Penner (.145)

Smid (.090)

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Penner (178)

Gilbert (82)

Corsi/15:

Penner(.470)

Visnovsky (.460)

SCF/15:

Penner (5.011)

Visnovsky (4.517)

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