The Oilers habit of giving up goals due to positioning
by Derek Zona on Jan 21, 2010 10:30 AM PST
in Analysis
20 comments
On January 5th, in the game against Phoenix, Edmonton gave up a goal to Radim Vrbata because of faceoff positioning in a four-on-four situation. Here is the first shot - we can see Souray lined up at left wing, Penner on the right side and the other defenseman, Tom Gilbert, is not in the picture.
From the ice-level camera shot, we can see Gilbert's original positioning:
In the next still, we can see Gilbert breaking to the center of the ice after Hanzal punched the faceoff forward:
Check out the results of the play here.
At the time, I immediately blamed Gilbert. I was amazed, as was Dustin Penner if you watch the video, that the Oilers chose to line up like this as it goes against everything I've been taught and everything I've ever watched in the last thirty something years. However, when I watched this again on DVR, Shawn Horcoff actually moved Gilbert over to the wall, thus exposing the center of the ice. In the intermission interview, Vrbata spoke about seeing the positioning and talking to Hanzal about winning the faceoff forward to the zone for the breakaway.
Fast forward to last night. Andrew Cogliano took a penalty during a four-on-four, leaving the Oilers down a man for a four-on-three. The faceoff was in Edmonton's zone late in the game and Denis Grebeshkov chose to line up on the circle, goal-side. Jason Strudwick then motions to Grebeshkov to change his positioning to the left wing, on the boards, leaving the center of the ice open to the Sedins and Salo, as seen here:
Grebeshkov gets trapped on the boards side, then stupidly decided to chase the puck farther to the boards side, exposing center ice even more. We can see the results of the play here:
In both of these situations, the Oilers were not skating with five men on the ice. In both situations, veteran players decide to abandon the center of the ice in favor of protecting the left wing, leaving themselves outmanned and overwhelmed to the goal side.
This faceoff positioning goes against everything I know about hockey, so are there any tacticians willing to step up and defend this? Is this just an HUA on these veterans, or is it possible this is something that Tom Renney is teaching in these situations. If Renney is teaching it, can anyone explain the positives behind giving up on odd-man situation in the center of the ice before the puck is dropped?
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To borrow a line from one of the lesser Star Trek movies, “What the hell kind of strategy is that?”
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Left wing brainlock
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 21, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
Derek, you just trumped each and every thing said by the Sportsnet panel last night.
A posse ad esse.
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by Jonathan Willis on Jan 21, 2010 11:19 AM PST reply actions
In the post-game Quinn blamed “the forward” for going to the wrong guy on that play (“He looked like he didn’t know what to do”) and didn’t mention the positioning of Grebeshkov at all. This leads me to believe that Grebs lined up as the coaches wanted him to. And to be honest, I think Penner getting sucked down to the guy along the boards was the bigger mistake since he’s supposed to be the “high” guy in that situation. The Gilbert positioning was clearly ridiculous but I’m not convinced Grebs starting position was particularly costly last night.
by Scott Reynolds on Jan 21, 2010 11:27 AM PST reply actions
This leads me to believe that Grebs lined up as the coaches wanted him to.
I can’t see it Bruce. I’ve never seen that lineup before. There is no reason to be on that wing and leave Strudwick to handle the left wing and left defenseman. Like Kent says above, leaving center ice open is not the tactical move. Who cares if the right wing gets the puck? If the left wing or left D get the puck, you’re in trouble.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
First of all, that was Scott. Grebs stayed on the ahsh marks just long enough to force the faceoff win back to the point rather than the easier play over to the side boards, then he got into good position shortly after the draw. The breakdown happened after that in my view, and was mostly on Penner. Unfortunately Horcoff was in the box (for the initial coincidental minor that preceded the 4v3) or Penner would never even have been out there. 6 seconds overlap, and that was all it took. Sigh.
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"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 21, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
After thinking about it a bit more, this does make sense… Daniel was along the boards, so Henrik’s most likely going to try and muck it to allow Daniel to come in for the puck, rather than risk drawing the puck back into an open area (and potentially having it go out of the zone), especially with just a handful of seconds left on the 4 on 3.
You can bet Vancouver wanted to set up one quick play before the easier 4 on 3 turned in to a more difficult 5 on 4.
The breakdown happened after that in my view, and was mostly on Penner. Unfortunately Horcoff was in the box (for the initial coincidental minor that preceded the 4v3) or Penner would never even have been out there. 6 seconds overlap, and that was all it took. Sigh.
I watched this over and over. I don’t think Penner ever knew that Grebs was on the boards.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
3 on 4 = 1 forward. He needs to cheat towards the middle.
Normally that would be Horcoff. I don’t think we would have got sucked over to the wall like that.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 22, 2010 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
Right, but there were two Divers on the boards, so I think Penner thought he was 1 on 2 out there.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
I just think that if Grebs had lined up incorrectly the coach would’ve noted his mistake instead of lumping it all on Penner. I don’t recall if they lined up differently for the 4v3 faceoff in overtime but that should give us some idea of whether or not the problem is with the system. That said, I’m not really sure how this ended up hurting the Oilers. As Bruce notes below, the breakdown comes well after the FO loss. IMO it’s Penner who abandons the top half (and center) of the ice to pursue the guy on the left wall which is what opens up the middle.
by Scott Reynolds on Jan 21, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Strucks loses faceoff battle, Grebs, Pens over-pursue, out of position.
Secondary errors to the lot of them!
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Jan 21, 2010 11:39 AM PST reply actions
Is the primary error the positioning?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
On the first goal, it makes sense.
Horcoff is a LH centre, and his strong face-off move is on the backhand. He set Gilbert to where he wanted to win the draw. Hanzel did the smart thing and punched it forward, and Penner just left his man for some unknown reason.
If Penner stays with his man, it’s a non-issue.
I’m not sure what Struds was doing on that 2nd goal though. The only time it makes sense to put your pker on the boards (when you are down to 3), is if the opposition C has their backhand to that side. The idea on the PP draw isn’t so much to win it to the middle of the ice, but win it to where you have the most puck support (typically, towards the boards where your winger and defencemen are). But Henrik had his backhand to the middle of the ice, meaning the help would come from that side.
If you want some more cases of awful positioning, both Penner and Souray (on the GTG and GWG), were nowhere close to being in a good spot.
Penner (as the high forward) went chasing all the way to the wall, leaving the entire middle of the ice open.
Souray’s rotation on the 3rd goal was slower than Pluto’s rotation around the sun. His job is to rotate from high to low. When the puck is high, he covers high, when the puck goes low, he’s supposed to slide down. He watched the puck go low and never moved.
Yeah, Souray was Out To Lunch on the GWG. He might as well have been on Pluto for all the good he did.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 22, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
Horcoff is a LH centre, and his strong face-off move is on the backhand. He set Gilbert to where he wanted to win the draw. Hanzel did the smart thing and punched it forward, and Penner just left his man for some unknown reason.
But you’re giving up a two on one to the center of the ice.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
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