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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Your Contest Winner & More On Context


The very-bright and must-read RiversQ won our guessing game, correctly identifying the graph below. For his troubles, RiversQ wins a copy of  Black Ice: The Lost History of the Colored Hockey League of the Maritimes, 1895-1925, a book I plan on reviewing here in the near future.


Zonestartvscorsigraph_medium

As you can see, the red line indicates team Corsi value and the blue line indicates team ZoneStart, or (Defensive Faceoffs-Offensive Faceoffs).  Why is the above graph important?  Because it brings context to these two advanced statistics  -- they are inversely related.  This holds at the team level as well as the individual level and has a large impact on individual performance as well.  A line that gets buried in their own end impacts the next group of gentlemen coming on to the ice.  In Phoenix last year, Lisin, Turris, Lindstrom, Jovanski and Morris got the benefit of starting in the offensive zone quite often last year.  They couldn't hold ground and ended up in their own end more often than Kurt Sauer, Zybnek Michalek and Martin Hanzal would have preferred.  Those in the latter group were made to charge uphill all year long thanks to their teammates inability to hold or gain ground.

Star-divide

The_man_medium Jim Corsi has already spent a lifetime in hockey.  The one-time goalie for the Edmonton Oilers, he looked exactly like Mr. Kotter then, began a shift in the way in which hockey was analyzed while coaching for the Buffalo Sabres.  He invented the Corsi number, which put simply, is the total of all shots at net for and against while a player is on the ice at even strength.  Shots directed at the net includes blocks and misses.  The stat was a revolution in that it began a trend of bright fans looking at the underlying numbers within the game, rather than basing assumptions on the results.  Brokers, poker players and mathematicians all know that results-oriented thinking is for the weak, and Corsi helped push a whole bunch of hockey geeks in the right direction.

Corsi is far and away the best stat we currently have to measure territoriality.  There is no questioning this.  However, a general lack of understanding about what Corsi means, and a lack of context for game situations has led Corsi to be used incorrectly in a number of quarters.  It's encouraging that the language is more common and the stats are being analyzed and that there is a general move towards using these numbers, however using them incorrectly, or without context leads to misunderstandings concerning the value of the metric.  Does a list of the 20 worst Corsi Values matter?  Yes, but in a very narrow sense.  The 20 worst Corsi values only shows which 20 players faced a ton of shots in their own end.   It doesn't account for ice time, and that's why Gabe Desjardins' Behind The Net provides the useful Corsi/60.

Does a list of the 20 worst Corsi/60 values mean anything on it's own?  Again, yes, but it provides minimal value without context.  It's a raw list of people that spent the most time in their own end.  It doesn't account for where these players started on the ice.  Marc-Andre Bergeron and his 6.7 Corsi/60 can't be compared to Nick Schultz' -14.4 Corsi/60 even though they are on the same team.  Why?  Schultz started in his own end of the ice 327 more times than Bergeron.  Bergeron started in the offensive zone 227 more times than Schultz did.  Because of this differential, Vic Ferrari invented Zonestart, a number that measures the starting point at faceoffs for players at even strength.  Vic also came up with a metric he calls Zoneshift, which is a measure of ZoneStart and ZoneEnd - it shows which way the puck is going when a person is on the ice.   

Does a raw list of players grouped by Zonestart and Corsi/60 have meaning?  Yes, certainly more than the raw Corsi numbers.  However, this list doesn't tell us who these players were playing against on the ice.  A player can be put on the ice in good situations against weak competition like George Parros in Anaheim, or he can be put out in the defensive zone against the best competition like Shawn Horcoff.  If they happen to have a similar Corsi values, it's an error in grouping, not because they are similar players. Context matters when it comes to comparables.  Fans instantly recognize that comparing the best Bettman-puck era player to the best player in the 80s has to happen with an adjustment in traditional stats because Bettman-puck scoring rates were down so sharply.  Using a change in scoring rates over an era when creating a comp is putting it in context.  The existence of microstats doesn't change that - there must be some context to the comps.

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Nicely summed up Derek. I was curious which of the two you feel is driving the bus. Take the Leafs as an example. If we were to draw a “best-fit” line through the Corsi data they’d be a pretty significant outlier. If we assume that this would correct itself given enough time, do you think it’s more likely for them to increase their Corsi number or increase their number of defensive zone starts?

by Scott Reynolds on Jul 31, 2009 9:19 AM MDT reply actions  

Nicely summed up Derek.

Muchas Gracias.

I was curious which of the two you feel is driving the bus.
That was the first question I asked when I saw the graph. My gut instinct based off of looking at individual stats is that it’s driven individual player Corsi. Corsi is created by gaining or holding ground through possession and passing creating shots. Players that are bad at possession and passing are going to lose ground, lose the Corsi battle and get stuck in their own end often. On the flip side, there are guys like Horcoff who have a hugely positive Zonestart and a slightly positive Corsi, which is damn near impossible. Weiss had a positive Corsi with a 73 ZS and 34% Defpct and Malhotra had a positive Corsi with a 98 ZS and 35% Defpct – this compared to Horcoff’s 156 ZS and 39% defpct. Mike Richards had a 173 ZS and a 39% Defpct and a negative Corsi to compare.

That was rambling, but my guess is that individual Corsi drives the team. The edge players on both ends are able to overcome their starting position and make it up the hill, and those same guys push the creampuffs from the top of the hill back down.

Contributor to The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jul 31, 2009 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I tend to think that Corsi is not, in and of itself, the key to success. I think having terrirotrial advantage (“meaningful possession”, if you will) is the driver of winning, and that is measured, albeit imperfectly, by Corsi. And territorial advantage ultimately drives all of the metrics we’re looking at (team corsi, team shots +/-, team zoneshift and team +/-, although the further you go the noisier it gets)

by R O on Aug 1, 2009 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well put Derek

These are quite simple concepts that get complicated quite easily. Good breakdown. Now can you please take behindthenets rating (GF/60 – GFOFF/60) – (GA/60 – GAOFF/60) and factor in zonestarts, corsi, QC, QT and make a master player rating to simplify this for everyone. Google’s search algorithm has over 80 factors surely rating a hockey player is easier ;)

by puckdonkey on Jul 31, 2009 11:18 AM MDT reply actions  

Now can you please take behindthenets rating (GF/60 – GFOFF/60) – (GA/60 – GAOFF/60) and factor in zonestarts, corsi, QC, QT and make a master player rating to simplify this for everyone.

I think the conversations that take place in the ’sphere on a regular basis are driving something like this.

Contributor to The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jul 31, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Score

I was hoping that was it because it’s nice to see that bears out. It seems like a kind of obvious relationship now, but it is interesting. I posted something slightly similar awhile back for Oiler and Flame skaters last year and that was scary too.

by RiversQ on Jul 31, 2009 11:40 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

It seems like a kind of obvious relationship now, but it is interesting

It’s obvious in conversation – “He can’t have a positive Corsi you twit, he’s starting in his own zone 40% of the time” – but it’s eye-opening when you see the two slopes of the curves.

Contributor to The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jul 31, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

It would be nice if the NHL recorded things a little differently. The faceoff data only shows the shifts that start with a faceoff, and doesn’t include any shifts where players change on the fly. I know that if you add up all the OFF/DEF/NEU zone numbers for each player from the timonice site, the total is usually gets you about 55% of what NHL.com lists under total shifts (for the Oilers anyway). Now, how much of that difference comes from special teams, and how much are extra ES shifts, I have no idea. I doubt that it would change the stats too much, but it would make things a little more clear anyway, and more data is always better than less data in these sorts of things, IMO. The only guys I think it might affect are the faceoff speciallists who are put on the ice for a draw and then change once play starts.

This is another small nitpicky (that’s a word, right) thing, but if the zoneshift was calculated as OFF-DEF rather than DEF-OFF, the chart would probably look better. Someone’s going to give me shit for it, but I can’t be the only person who was thinking that.

by ykmisfit on Jul 31, 2009 2:22 PM MDT reply actions  

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