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A matter of Corsi

Lots of discussion lately about the Corsi number, at MC79hockey, in Kukla's Corner, and here at The Copper & Blue. In the first of these I got into a bit of a hey rube with some of the more formidable stats buffs in the sphere. You'd think I'd know better by now.

In his post, Tyler picked out a comment I'd made in an earlier thread:

The bad Corsi goes with the territory of fourth liners everywhere, who by definition face many more unfavourable match-ups than favourable ones.

For this one remark at least, I wasn't talking out of my ass but had done some background research. The results are interesting enough on a number of levels to be worth sharing.

Star-divide

Using Gabe Desjardins' outstanding resource Behind the Net, I identified the 344 NHL forwards who played 50+ games in 2008-09 and sorted them by Corsi rates. At the top of the list were a handful of guys whose teams had attempted > 20 shots more than their opponents per even-strength hour the player was on the ice; at the bottom were just a couple who had sunk below minus-20. The top 10 included many players whom you might expect: Datsyuk, Hossa, Franzen, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, Ovechkin. It also included a few surprises: the top three in the league were Sergei Fedorov, David Moss, and Eric Fehr for goodness sake, while Curtis Glencross (shown up top causing problems on Nik Khabibulin's doorstep) ranked 9th in the NHL. (That Glencross was in the top 10 in the league while his erstwhile linemates Brodziak and Stortini were both in the bottom 10 speaks volumes. What a colossal blunder.)

Besides great Corsi rates, what do all these guys have in common?

Rather a lot, it would seem. I decided to sort into groups of 50, with one slightly smaller group of 44 put in the middle to make the groups at the top and bottom of equal size. The resulting table showed some surprising uniformity:

Corsi rank            GP      TOI/60           TOI  QUALCOMP  QUALTEAM           CORSI
1-50 75.4 12.88 970.88 +0.01 +0.14 +15.71
51-100 74.8 12.50 935.07 0.00 +0.06 +7.23
101-150 73.0 11.95 872.64 0.00 -0.05 +2.07
151-194 72.3 11.81 853.77 0.00 0.00 -0.58
195-244 71.8 11.48 823.46 -0.01 -0.03 -3.92
245-294 71.7 10.95 785.01 -0.01 -0.08 -7.04
295-344 68.1 10.17 692.44 -0.03 -0.14 -12.87
All 72.4 11.68 845.63 -0.01 -0.01 0.10

Of course the last column is forced since Corsi was used for the sort. Still, it's interesting to see the incremental gaps in Corsi rates from one group to the next, with the largest differentials being at the extremes, especially on the good side of the ledger.

Far more interesting is how the one sort works right across the table. The top players have both the highest average GP and the highest average minutes per game, which means they have a significant edge in total ice time. This does not give them an advantage in Corsi rates, since Gabe cleverly presents these on a per-60 basis, but the combination of more ice time at a higher rate obviously means the gross Corsi totals of the top guys are outstanding.  

Moreover, the top Corsi performers face the highest quality of competition, albeit the increments from one level to the next are very small indeed when they are not zero. Only the bottom group shows a significant drop, which is no doubt due to what Dennis calls the "gentleman's agreement" where coaches frequently match their fourth lines against one another. This accounts for a significant fraction of the scrubs' ice time, however by no means all of it.

The QualTeam column is most revealing. There is a little hiccup in the third group which breaks an otherwise orderly descent, in fact it's the only anomaly on the entire table. The QT values are far higher than those recorded under QualComp, ranging from +0.14 for the top 50 to -0.14 for the bottom 50. The main reason for this is surely that the coach has full control over who his players line up with, but only partial control of who they line up against. I expect home/road splits might be particularly revealing if they were available, for the top guys and especially those at the bottom.

The splits become even more clear when we divide the list into just three groups, like so:

Corsi rank            GP      TOI/60           TOI  QUALCOMP  QUALTEAM           CORSI
Top 100 75.10 12.69 952.92 +0.01 +0.10 +11.47
Middle 144 72.35 11.74 849.70 0.00 -0.02 -0.82
Bottom 100 69.88 10.56 738.02 -0.02 -0.11 -9.96

If one accepts QC and QT at face value, the positive Corsi guys have the huge advantage of playing with the best teammates, the negative guys tghe huge disadvantage of lining up with the worst. Of course Tomas Holmstrom had a great Corsi, he was always playing with Datsyuk, Rafalski, Lidstrom, Hossa, et al. And of course Kyle Brodziak had a crummy Corsi, he lined up frequently with Staios, Moreau, Stortini, Strudwick ...

The problem with these metrics, QT in particular, is that they are unavoidably self-referential. The teammates' results as measured in Corsi, goal differential, or any other outcome, are going to be in part - but only in part - due to the contribution of the player being considered. If there was a large sample size where each guy played a lot with each different teammate it might be possible to disentangle that with some confidence, but when a guy like Brodziak plays most of the time with scrubs he's gonna look like a scrub. Especially sans Glencross. *sigh*

The QT factor becomes even larger if we refine the extremes of the list.

Group QUALCOMP  QUALTEAM     CORSI
Top 100 +0.006 +0.10 +11.47
Top 50 +0.008 +0.14 +15.71
Top 25 +0.008 +0.19 +18.49
Top 10 +0.013 +0.28 +21.84

I have added a third significant digit to QC to show the minuscule incremental change, as the results round to +0.01 in all cases. QT on the other hand just soars at the elite end of the list.

From the above tables one could derive a crude working formula: (QT - QC) * 100  Corsi/60, suggesting that QT is the driving factor of shots. I'm not suggesting we should do that - in fact I think it draws dangerous conclusions - just that it is consistent with the data at hand. Certainly the quality of teammates is a hugely important factor.

Two more small tables, the first showing the offensive production of the Corsi groups:

Corsi rank    GOALS/60    ASST/60     PTS/60
1-50 0.89 1.24 2.13
51-100 0.86 1.18 2.04
101-150 0.73 0.93 1.66
151-194 0.69 0.92 1.61
195-244 0.69 0.96 1.65
245-294 0.61 0.88 1.49
295-344 0.49 0.71 1.20
All 0.71 0.97 1.68

... and the second showing team results for the same groups:

Corsi rank   GFON/60  GAON/60        +-/60       +-/Corsi
1-50 2.99 2.31 0.68 0.043
51-100 2.84 2.41 0.43 0.059
101-150 2.37 2.44 -0.07 -0.033
151-194 2.37 2.43 -0.06 0.104
195-244 2.42 2.55 -0.13 0.033
245-294 2.12 2.41 -0.29 0.041
295-344 1.88 2.50 -0.61 0.048
All 2.43 2.44 -0.01              N/A

In both cases we again see a fairly orderly progression from top to bottom with the muddled middle less stratified. Even though a positive Corsi in theory hinges as much on effective shot prevention as shots attempted, the effects of outshooting appear to be much greater at the offensive end of the ice. (Of course, this study involves only forwards.)

The final column is one I concocted to determine the relationship between outshooting and outscoring. The middle groups should probably be discounted as the divisor (Corsi +-) passes through zero, but the top and bottom 100 show a strong correlation, whether positive to positive or negative to negative, of about .045. I don't have actual numbers to hand, but if one assumes that ~55% of all attempted shots make it to goal, and that about 8% of those shots (EV Sh%) find twine, it lines up very nicely with these results.   

Collectively, the results undeniably show that outshooting and outscoring are strongly correlated when measured in terms of the individual playing at even strength. It is especially strong at the level of first- and fourth-line players, which is in part but to an unknown degree a result of the quality of players with whom they play. This is at variance with my own previous studies on outshooting which were conducted at the team level and which considered the game holistically including special teams situations, and which have shown outshooting is certainly a positive but is a relatively weak driver of wins and losses. While there are many individual exceptions to the rule, I emerge from this exercise with an increased (if still qualified) respect for Corsi as a measurement of individual 5v5 performance.

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This is a really interesting study you’ve done Bruce and I find myself in agreement with much of it (Of course now I’ll bring out the parts with which I’m having trouble!).

Probably my biggest question is why you’ve labeled the “top fifty” group “first line” players and the “bottom fifty” group fourth line players. By my count there are only eleven teams represented in the top fifty group (ten if you put Kunitz with the Ducks where he spent the majority of the year), distributed as follows:

Detroit – 9
Washington – 8
Chicago – 7
Calgary – 6
San Jose – 5
New Jersey – 5
New York – 4
Anaheim – 3
Carolina – 1
Pittsburgh – 1
Nashville – 1

Maybe more of those guys should be first liners distributed around the league but quite a lot of them are playing on eight good teams. I think this is one reason the QC stuff you’ve cited here may not be showing a true picture. It seems unlikely that all nine guys on the Wings are facing equal competition and thus you have the average number coming down. Nor are all eight guys on the Capitals taking on the same QC. I think it’s a mistake to treat QC as a significant “group” value in this study since for some of the groupings over half of the players play for four teams.

Having said all of that, I don’t mean to take away from the work you’ve done here which is certainly both interesting and helpful. Thanks.

by Scott Reynolds on Jul 23, 2009 3:49 PM MDT reply actions  

First line v. fourth line

Hey you’re right Scott, that was probably an oversimplification on my part. It only seems like Detroit has 9 first-line players. Rather than merely identifying first-rank players, the top of the list should instead be heavily biased toward first-rank teams, as your list shows; or should I say, first-rank outshooting teams. (Seems to me Pittsburgh had a pretty decent squad when all was said and done.)

Your comments about QC are valid, but they apply equally to QT. e.g. Filppula and Samuelsson had a QT of -0.07 and Hudler a staggering -0.29. This would have the effect of pulling that average down as well, and still we see a QT factor that is far greater than that of QC, at least by Gabe’s numbers.

Note also my “refined” list that showed the guys in the top 10 (“only” 5 Red Wings!) faced a slightly higher QC, but still around .01, while their QT absolutely soared.

Still and all, your point is well taken. Perhaps the next avenue of study will be to identify the top and bottom three Corsi players on each team and perform a similar analysis on those groups of 90, to see if the noted QC and QT effects hold. My guess is that they will, although maybe not quite so strongly. But as trial run, let’s check the Oilers, taking the averages of the top* and bottom 3 (*exluding POS, who compiled most of his stats elsewhere; so Penner-Hemsky-Horcoff and Moreau-Brodziak-Stortini):

Stat Top 3 (Bottom 3)

GP 77 (69)
TOI 13:02 (9:50)
QC +.013 (-.063)
QT +.183 (-.093)
P/60 1.79 (1.63)
+-/60 +0.54 (-0.26)

Seems fairly consistent with the above, although the P/60 is probably far closer than most teams as the entire Oiler forward core seemed to be within 0.25 or so of 1.50.

Thanks for the feedback.

by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 24, 2009 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pittsburgh is an interesting case. They became a pretty dominant team once Bylsma took over and Gonchar returned from injury, not only in terms of winning a lot more games than before, but also in terms of outshooting at a fantastic rate. This was really highlighted for me in their series with the Capitals. Basically, yes, the Penguins ended up being a fantastic club, but they did it when they turned the outshooting numbers completely around half-way through the year.

With regard to QT, I don’t think the team situation applies to QT as much as it does to QC because the range in QT is a lot greater than QC. One guy like Holmstrom (0.69 QT) is going to really ramp that average up. You don’t have the same sort of thing with QT. I think that your point about ZS below is true. I don’t think there will be much correlation as a group for ZS either. That said, I don’t really think there’s much of a correlation with QC. It looks like there is when you make them into averages, but once you look at the individuals involved you see that there’s actually a lot of variation. If you did the same “averaged” analysis with ZS I expect you’d see something like + offensive zone draws for the top 50 and + defensive zone draws for the bottom 50. It will look similar to the what you’ve already done on the ends because the good players getting good starting positions will invariably have fantastic Corsi rates (like Ovechkin) while the bad players getting bad starting positions will invariably have terrible Corsi rates (like Stortini :) … heh…).

Your suggestion to go team by team is a good one but I do worry that you’ll end up with some funny looking “first line” players. For instance, with the Flames you’d be calling Moss, Glencross and Conroy their first line last here. Now, they were terrific players for the Flames last year but… I don’t know many Flames fans that would be labelling them the Flames top three forwards.

by Scott Reynolds on Jul 24, 2009 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bylsma

Pittsburgh is an interesting case. They became a pretty dominant team once Bylsma took over and Gonchar returned from injury, not only in terms of winning a lot more games than before, but also in terms of outshooting at a fantastic rate.

It was not only his system, but his lines and matching. I had this post on Tyler Kennedy that looked at some of that.

About two weeks before Michel Therrien was fired, a good friend of mine and I were discussing the Pens’ problems, and beyond the obvious issues of Therrien throwing Max Talbot [#25] to the wolves and Talbot being eaten alive, we both noted how Kennedy was being underutilized. I mentioned that the line of Matt Cooke, Jordan Staal and Tyler Kennedy seemed to get things done. I checked Vic’s site.

A quick look at the day before Therrien was fired, after the Toronto game with Vic’s shift compiler [Kennedy is #48, Cooke is #24, Staal is #11, that combined line is #99] On a team with a goal differential of +3, Kennedy was +5. On a team with a Corsi of 381, Kennedy had a +7 and remember his from above [Qualteam -.22], so he is outperforming his team. Our intuition about the 24-11-48 line was also correct - Slightly outscoring in limited time, outshooting, outblocking and putting up a fantastic Corsi. That was a line that should stay together, Therien’s blender be damned! Enter Dan Bylsma. In the seventeen games since he’s been coach, 24-11-48 have been together thirteen times. They’re still slightly outscoring, outshooting and putting up the nice Corsi, more importantly for the Pens – they are a regular line. Vic should check his IP logs to see if someone from the Mellon Arena is running queries. Individually, Kennedy’s numbers are still quite good, and he’s doing all the right things.

Bylsma united that line permanently and it paid off. Bylsma stopped Therrien’s awful practice of hard-matching Talbot against the toughs and started giving that assignment to Staal. He split up Orpik and Letang (they were HORRIBLE together) and put the hard work on Scuderi and Gill.

Contributor to The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jul 25, 2009 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

With regard to QT, I don’t think the team situation applies to QT as much as it does to QC because the range in QT is a lot greater than QC. One guy like Holmstrom (0.69 QT) is going to really ramp that average up. You don’t have the same sort of thing with QT*.

(*Assuming you meant "than QC" at the end.)

With due respect, Scott, that’s part of the point … Holmstrom is near the top of the list cuz of who he plays with, not who he plays against. Even with his inflated QT, the Swedish Smytty raised the group QT average by only around .01. Bear in mind that the to achieve an average of +0.14, the top 50’s QT summed to 7.24. Holmstrom’s +0.69 is not even 10% of that.

by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 27, 2009 1:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, sorry Bruce, I way overstated my case with that one. I read the quote you pulled out and thought that must have been taken out of context or something because it didn’t make sense to me. But it wasn’t read out of context at all. Sigh. (Side Note: You were right in reading QC at the end of that paragraph).

Anyway, what I think now (which I hope makes more sense) is that QT and QC are effected similarly by the averaging (it makes a diverse group of players look more similar than they are). That said, even though the range is larger for QT than QC, it does appear that there is more real movement in QT throughout the exercise.

All that to say…

You were right.
I was wrong.
Now you can sing
The “I was right” song.

by Scott Reynolds on Jul 27, 2009 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe I didn’t read the original post closely enough, but you’re still using Corsi without making any sort of reference to where these players are starting their shifts.

It’s like trying to find out which of two runners are faster using just the times they crossed the finish line. Without knowing what time each guy started running, you’re never going to get your answer.

by ykmisfit on Jul 23, 2009 5:52 PM MDT reply actions  

ZoneStart

Hey YKMisfit, you’re right of course, and I meant to make a comment about that; e.g. a guy like Brodziak was starting in the hole so often that would affect his Corsi for sure. That said, the data at my disposal did not include ZoneStart info, and there was no way to get it (from a completely independent source) without turning this into a PhD thesis. My thought is that when considering groups of 50 a lot of that will come out in the wash; while some individuals get the royal treatment I’d be shocked to find anywhere near as strong a correlation as a group to ZoneStart as we found with QualTeam or to +-/60 to name two examples.

by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 24, 2009 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

From observation, I’d say one of the primary reasons 4th line guys get pulled down is the goon – MacIntyre, Godard, McGrattan, Peters, etc…skating with these guys at ES is probably like being a man down. The year the Flames dressed an enforcer full time (Godard), the fourth line was a black hole of suck. Last season, Calgary had a semi-functional goon (Roy) who only played about half the year. All the 4th liners ended up in the black.

by Kent Wilson on Jul 23, 2009 7:00 PM MDT reply actions  

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