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Quality of Competition and Image Resolution

On Sunday, Gabriel Desjardins (of Behind the Net) was nice enough to run the Quality of Competition method I've been using for the AHL and compare it to his method for evaluating the Edmonton Oilers.  The results were different, although not wildly divergent.

In any case, Desjardins' work, combined with this David Staples piece, spawned a bit of a discussion over at HFBoards.  Staples thought my work was clearly wrong:

I'm still going over Desjardins' post, but it would seem to me that the Time On Ice-based system of measure quality of competition got it right. For instance, I just can't see how Smid or Strudwick faced tougher quality of competition last year than Souray.

Meanwhile, HF commenter Giant Moo (no fan of the blogophere) was critical of the process as a whole:

If "QoC" can be calculated in four wildly different ways with wildly different results with low correlation, then obviously it's an exercise in deception through numbers. It means that QoC is whatever you want it to be, meaning it's not scientific, meaning it's not useful as "proof" of anything.

With no disrespect intended, I think I can say that both are missing the point.

Star-divide

Desjardins asked in his post which system was best - comparing them head to head and asking which best reflected what actually happened on the ice last season.  Staples strongly felt (and I agree) that Desjardins' existing system is much better.  Meanwhile, Giant Moo feels that if four systems can produce four different results, than none of them are valid.

But it should be obvious that Desjardins' existing method isn't just better, but far superior.  It should also be obvious to people like Giant Moo that not only is Desjardins' system highly accurate (as we've seen year over year with the Oilers), but that the system I proposed was by neccessity a poorer substitute.

Let me explain.

I own a brand new digital SLR camera.  It's the best camera I've ever owned; it takes magnificent pictures.  These pictures are big files, and in full size they do as good a job as I've seen a camera do of recording what my eyes actually saw.

Now, if I take one of those photos and shrink it down to a thumbnail - say 1/10th size - they don't look so good.  It's the same picture, but it's heavily distorted by being compressed into such a small space.  This isn't a fault of the camera - but rather the format that we're using to view the picture, in this case a thumbnail.

It's the same thing with my Quality of Competition method.  Since our information on the AHL is limited, I proposed a system similar to Desjardins', except that instead of using time on ice, I used goal events as a proxy.  What's the difference?  Let's use Ales Kotalik as an example (although you can do this with any player and get similar results).  Last year, he spent 81% of his ice-time in even-strength situations - something that equates to roughly 1,250 shifts.  77 of those shifts resulted in a goal for or against.

Desjardin's method uses the icetime from all 1,250 shifts.  My AHL method uses the goal events; in other words, the difference in resolution is approximately 1600% - Desjardins' is using similar data, but he's using a sample that's 16 times larger than mine.

Obviously, because of the reduced sample size - even the Oilers EV icetime leader, Shawn Horcoff, only had 95 goal events - this measurement is going to be distorted, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  Beyond the players right at the top of the scale, it's largely a guesstimate.  This is expected.

It's unfortunate that my AHL approximation isn't more accurate, but with the data at hand it's as good as I can make it.  It shouldn't be relied upon religiously, but it is helpful for giving us an idea of what is going on down on the farm, and should be considered as one more tool rather than a definitive value. 

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Thanks for the explanation of your system Jonathan. I’d read your posts on this system before, but your method was still foggy to me, and Gabe’s explanation in his own post was brief.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Jul 14, 2009 2:38 PM PDT reply actions  

And, for the record, in case you missed me saying this 1000 other times, as much as I love the concept of Gabe’s system, I don’t think it’s highly accurate, as it’s based on traditional plus/minus, a system that gets it wrong about 30 per cent of the time.

That said, it does match up pretty well with what we do see on the Oilers, so perhaps that margin of error isn’t fatal.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Jul 14, 2009 2:41 PM PDT reply actions  

Although the plus/minus is adjusted to team strength, which helps reduce a lot of the problems.

But Desjardins’ system does matchup well, and has for years, so I feel fine saying that it works – at least for ordering the players on the same team.

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 14, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a joke we engineering student make about Mathematicians. Here it goes:

Mathematicians were given a multi-step computational task for a project. Every step had its error. Their computations were very precise and in the end they concluded that the cumulative error was too high for any practical purposes and the project was scrapped. Just for fun a couple of engineers picked it up and did their own version of computations which werent as precise the mathematicians. The results were contradictory. Project was back on track. Where the mathematicians kept on adding the errors, engineers were able to ‘round it off’ so that plus and minus errors eventually ended up cancelling each other.

by SumOil on Jul 15, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yet again showing the basic superiority fo engineers ;)

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 15, 2009 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your system

Before we had nothing. Now we have something that we can use to measure the AHL kids against each other. It’s great work regardless of the holes.

Contributor to The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jul 14, 2009 2:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Excellent work was usual, JW. I agree that your AHL metric was a step above what we had — nothing — but is much coarser than that developed by Desjardins. While I have some misgivings against any such metric — which will surely be self-referential at some level — BehindtheNet has churned out full-season QualComp and QualTeam results which over the past couple of years have passed the smell test when applied to the players I watch the closest, i.e. the Oilers. That there is a much broader range of QualTeam (0.26 to -0.32) than QualComp (0.04 to – 0.14) also stands to reason, as the coach has much more say on who a guy lines up with than against. But good as it seems, this whole area is still very much a tool rather than a definitive value. For one thing it doesn’t begin to measure Quality of Ice Time; one needs to check out Vic Ferrari’s faceoff zone stats to get an insight into that, which will affect a player’s results just as surely as who he lines up with and against.

by Bruce McCurdy on Jul 14, 2009 3:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Just a heads up Jonathan, but the alternative method that Desjardins was using in his post wasn’t quite the same as what you were doing earlier. You were using pts/gm while he was using +/- to determine tough and weak competition. In the comments to that thread he ran the numbers again using pts/gm and said that they matched up much better with his existing TOI system which is similar to what Vic had said earlier with regard to the numbers correlating well with Gabe’s method (I get the feeling that Vic did something similar to what Gabe did and just didn’t post the numbers). Regardless, my understanding is that the proxy you developed is actually better than what you’re being given credit for.

by Scott Reynolds on Jul 14, 2009 4:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks Scott; that’s reassuring.

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 14, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Update

From Desjardins:

Ok, I re-ran using Pts/GP as the metric for the opposition. The rankings are essentially the same as for TOI-based QoC – except Moreau drops to middle-of-the-pack, and Gagner jumps to the top 6.

That’s incredibly good; better than I would have expected from the exercise, although it also matches the numbers that Vic Ferrari ran against Detroit.

This is great news for the exercise as a whole.

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 15, 2009 8:07 AM PDT reply actions  

This is great news for the exercise as a whole.

And it should give us a much clearer picture of the system going forward.

Contributor to The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.

by Derek Zona on Jul 15, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gabe's update

So it looks like your system isn’t so far off Gabe’s system, is that where we’ve ended up here?

I like the idea of basing the grading of opposition on points per game rather than plus/minus, and I suspect that’s the strength of your system Jonathan.

Points per game is a good indication of a players offensive talent, how many goals he acutally helped to create. It only leaves out a small fraction of the goals he actually did have a hand in, whereas traditional plus/minus is a mess.

Now, there’s no defensive stat that mimics points per game on a league wide basis.

by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Jul 15, 2009 2:03 PM PDT reply actions  

So it looks like your system isn’t so far off Gabe’s system, is that where we’ve ended up here?

That’s pretty much it.

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 15, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Now we just have to find a way to make it less labor intensive :)

by Kent Wilson on Jul 15, 2009 3:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Just catching up, but did you forget your own methodology? Damn.

This link:
www.timeonice.com/jonathon.html
will give you all the Quality of Competition numbers for your metric for the 07/08 season. You’ll have to go team by team manually to compare it to Desjardins, and weed out the giys that played few games or played for more than one team. I posted that shortly after you original post on the AHL numbers.

The associations are very strong, as you would expect.

And what the hell is that tiny racist David Staples up to now? His post above combines seven kinds of stupid with four kinds of oblivious … so surely it will end up right in the wheelhouse of this “Giant Moo” dumbass that you reference above. And why are you reading HF boards, jonathon? Good Lord, I read a Lowetide thread the other day and got dumber by osmosis, I can only imagine the stuff going down at HFboards nowadays.

HFboards was good when Mike Winters would go over to fight, and for no apparent reason. He unwittingly kept the Oilogosphere clean. As an aside, I remember googling “Oilogosphere” a couple of years ago and finding a thread about HBomb and some other guy, an internet handle with an acronym I can’t recall, leaving that board in grand fashion. The concensus was that HBomb would be okay on the Oilogosphere, but that the other cat would be “eaten alive”. WTF? I think that Winters and Tyler underestimated their ability to intimidate. I can’t talk, I did shag-all to keep this community strong until it was too late, but when Tyler and Mike lost their fight … this place went south at speed.

And I know you just want readers, and advertisers don’t gve a toss whether or not your readers are fools, just that they read the ads. This whole thing was inevitable I know.

In summary: Carry on as you were.

by Vic Ferrari on Jul 15, 2009 3:28 PM PDT reply actions  

“Tiny racist”? C’mon now, we’re getting ridiculous, wouldn’t you say? Staples has a different viewpoint than I do on a lot of things, but he genuinely adds value and he’s always struck me as a pretty classy guy, so I still don’t get the animosity toward him.

Anyways, I generally read the blog threads on HFBoards because I like the links, plus I like seeing if anyone has comments on what’s written here.

Thanks for putting that information together – I remember you commenting on it but I haven’t seen it before. It’s a big help and I’ll walk through it over the next couple of weeks. That’s 07-08 data, right?

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 15, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

where i agree with you about HF boards in general, It isnt as bad as you make it sound. Of course there are mind numbing posts, proposals and views, but there still are many objective posters there. Of course it is dominated by habs, cunnucks and leafs homers, I am not defending it because i post there, I defend it because it really isnt that bad. Also Hf boards is one of the best place to go for
1> knowing the general concencus about the draft and prospects
2> they have links to all sorts of things that happen in the nhl from various web sites, which is good for a hockey fan like me whose knowledge(of course not a lot) extends beyond oilers.

by SumOil on Jul 15, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not at all, jonathon. And I don’t openly question why you choose to lick Staples’ boots, though I do wonder.

by Vic Ferrari on Jul 15, 2009 5:11 PM PDT reply actions  

You know, Vic, you’re hands down the best math guy in the Oilersphere, and I’ve learned a ton from reading your work – and I’m still confused about some of the things you toss up for consideration without so much as a second thought. I use the tools you offer for public consumption both often and with gratitude.

But David Staples has always treated me with fairness and respect, and I’m not going to repay him any way but in kind.

I can’t imagine we’re going to agree on this, but you’re more than welcome to email me if you’d like to keep talking about it.

A posse ad esse.

Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.

by Jonathan Willis on Jul 15, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

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