Ethan Moreau's Shame
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 12:00 PM PDT
in Opinion
29 comments
You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by yourself, you know and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free.
--Denis Lemieux, Slapshot
When I last looked at Ethan Moreau, I came to the conclusion that he was the worst regular forward in the playoff race last year. Oilers fans throughout the land have been questioning the leadership and more importantly the play of Ethan Moreau (TheCAPtainEthanMoreau to Kevin Quinn) since early last year.
According to Behind The Net, among qualifying forwards Moreau was 3rd in penalties taken last season with 31 and fourth in penalties taken per 60 minutes. His Corsi was 10th among forwards, His scoring chance differential (thanks to Dennis King's excellent work) was last among all forwards on the team at -1.49/15
He hamstrung the team down the stretch taking what seemed to be a regular trip to the penalty box for offensive zone infractions, taken while on the attack, 195 feet away from his own goal. Some members in the Edmonton media did some hand-waving and claimed that Moreau's penalties were easier to kill because they were aggressive penalties. Some members in the Edmonton media should have their credentials revoked and their keyboards broken.
Ethan is off to a banner start again this year. He's already taken three minor penalties in four games, two of them in the offensive zone. While some serious combination of puck luck and sample size have combined to allow Moreau to lead the OIlers in EV +/- / 15, Moreau is dead last on the team in Corsi, and is in the bottom half of the team in scoring chance differential. Pat Quinn took him to task for his play in the waning seconds of the Calgary game, a play that led directly to the game-tying goal against.
A young team coming into it's own needs some leadership, both in the locker room and more importantly on the ice. There is more to leadership than working out in the off-season and chastising those who don't. When the captain is one of the worst players on the team and consistently makes terrible decisions, it's time to look at new leadership.
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I'm going to say "no"...
The timing is wrong. If the Oilers wanted to make a change, they should have done it in the off-season.
Besides, the likely replacement is sitting on the sidelines right now anyway.
A posse ad esse.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.
by Jonathan Willis on Oct 13, 2009 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So when the luck changes and the outchances and outshot thing catches up to the team..then?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m still not sure it’s worth it. It becomes a huge story and a distraction, and it isn’t like a player like Souray can’t lead the team without the “C”.
A posse ad esse.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.
by Jonathan Willis on Oct 13, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, instead, you have a guy that has yet to take accountability for his play being carried around by the rest of the team. That doesn’t become a distraction?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Jonathan on this one. If Quinn is willing to treat him like everybody else with regard to the hockey-playing part of things, and I think he is, there’s no real reason to take the captaincy away. He does a lot of charity work in Edmonton and really does care about the city. It’s not like the guy won the King Clancy for no reason. He’s also very comfortable dealing with the media responsibilities which isn’t something that all players are going to want to do in the Edmonton fishbowl (in Montreal, for example, Markov requested to not be made captain). Finally, Moreau has never been a great player and yet he was at one point considered a good choice for the captaincy. I have to think that his work ethic, practice habits and commitment to everyone in the room is all great or he never would have been given the captaincy to begin with. Finally, his contract is such that I assume the Oilers are looking at moving him. If they’re going to be trading him in the next year, why bother stripping him of his captaincy. It’s a move that would embarrass Moreau, the longest serving Oiler currently on the roster. In what business does embarrassing your longest-serving employee publicly for marginal gain make sense?
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Moreau is still a legitimate top 12 player at this point?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. I think he’s clearly better than Brule and Jacques at this point and there aren’t three guys out of the lineup that are better than Moreau. Who do we put in the lineup in his place?
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know that he is. At his best, I think he’s a 12th forward. He’s got little to no game left and he makes awful decisions. If hockey is about hockey and not about off-season workouts and charity work, then Moreau doesn’t deserve it.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay then. Of the options currently available to you (i.e. no Pouliot but heck, I’ll even give you Pisani) which twelve guys do you have ahead of Moreau?
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nilsson? For Moreau’s current role, Nilsson is fine.
When Pisani and Pubis thing are back, things get easier, but isn’t the fact that you’re entertaining this discussion about him being bottom-of-the-barrel meaningful?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d have Nilsson in the lineup too. But that’s only one guy and I’d be putting him in instead of Brule. I’m not sure what you’re getting at with regard to him being a “bottom of the barrel” player. Has he ever had a consistent role on a scoring line? He’s a mucker. Always was and still is. Should muckers be the captain? Well, Pat Quinn decided that was fine when he opened training camp without taking all the letters back. Should muckers be making the kind of scratch Moreau is? Well, no, but he’s not that’s Kevin Lowe’s fault, not Ethan Moreau’s. As for his level of play, I think it’s strange indeed if you really do think the team would be better off with Brule, Jacques and Nilsson in and Moreau out. As for stripping Moreau of the captaincy, what do you think it accomplishes other than embarrassing him?
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for his level of play, I think it’s strange indeed if you really do think the team would be better off with Brule, Jacques and Nilsson in and Moreau out
It’s not about being a mucker…it’s about being a really poor mucker. When all you can do is muck, and you can no longer muck well, it’s time to go.
I’m not seeing a compelling reason to have him around. Dump him to the A and bring in someone useful like Hilbert.
As for stripping Moreau of the captaincy, what do you think it accomplishes other than embarrassing him?
It seems he’s had no problems embarrassing himself on the ice, so I don’t see an issue here.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 14, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for Moreau’s play, sure, they could find someone better and cheaper but until they do I have no issues with him in the lineup. You can say that he doesn’t muck well but I find him to be better than the other options currently available to the coach. As such, I don’t see the argument that he’s not a top twelve forward on this team. You seem to not want to answer whether or not you prefer Moreau or Brule, preferring instead to bring in a guy like Hilbert (who I believe just went through re-entry waivers, it would have been a smart get, but they didn’t do it). That’s understandable, but right now Andy Hilbert has zero impact on whether or not Moreau is in the top twelve on the Oilers.
As for the person… that you don’t see that there is in fact an issue with embarrassing a captain who has been with the Oilers for years and just won the King Clancy trophy is craziness. There are very real negatives to doing that kind of thing in any business.
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 14, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, it looked like last night’s penalty was a case of the Pred grabbing Moreau’s stick and falling over. (How that becomes holding, I don’t know, unless Sportsnet screwed up the replay.)
That being said, I agree with the overall thesis of this post. I understand Quinn didn’t want to make changes until he knew the guys better, but at a certain point — maybe the next time Moreau makes a catastrophic gaffe like in the Calgary game — I wonder if we don’t see 10 or 44 inheriting the fancy letter.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
by Doogie2K on Oct 13, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One thing to consider about his year last year… no one had a greater descrepency between their Qualcomp and Qualteam last year than Moreau. He often played against some pretty good players without a lot of support on his line.
by dawgbone98 on Oct 13, 2009 2:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m almost certain that is a fluke of Gabe’s system. His most common linemates were Cogliano and Pouliot and their qualcomp was 7th and 10th, respectively.
His high qualcomp came while playing with Horcoff and Hemsky, and he did face, ahem, the Vaunt while with them.
His low qualteam came while playing with Cogliano and Pouliot, and he certainly didn’t face toughs with them.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn’t they balance out at least close to evenly? I don’t think that your explanation makes tons of sense to be honest since his QC is ahead of Hemsky’s. That is, unless you think Hemsky played worse comp than Moreau when the two of them were apart.
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, I’m wrong. It’s Cogliano, Brodziak, Pisani then Pouliot.
None of those guys approach Moreau.
That is, unless you think Hemsky played worse comp than Moreau when the two of them were apart
My guess is that when they were together, they played inordinately difficult comp.
How else do you explain Moreau’s comp when none of his common linemates approach it?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My guess is that he played difficult comp when with Pisani and Penner to start the year, difficult comp with Hemsky and Horcoff for his (as I remember it short) time on their line and difficult comp when he was out with Brodziak and/or Horcoff in defensive zone situations. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Moreau’s group was considered by the coach as a tough minutes group and that when his common linemates weren’t with him they were seeing dregs since Horc’s and Moreau’s groups were taking on the two best of the other team. It also wouldn’t surprise me if on the road the Moreau line was targeted by opposing coaches and MacT didn’t try to escape it like he would if it were, say, Nilsson-Gagner-Pouliot.
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it just doesn’t match up with the minutes played.
If that’s the case, he was playing all-star opponents when he wasn’t with Cogliano or Brodziak. Brodziak’s qualcomp, even with his ZS isn’t enough to pull him up to Horcoff territory.
65% of his ES time was spent with Cogliano or Brodziak, 10% of his time was with Horcoff. The absolute most time he could have spent with Pisani at center was 20% by the game logs, but he didn’t because he was on Horcoff’s line at times in that same game sequence.
Something doesn’t add up.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I know Gabe doesn’t factor in ZS for his QC calculations. I’m not sure what to tell you other than (1) MacT shifted guys around a bunch, (2) MacT seemed to feel comfortable with Moreau in any situation and (3) Gabe’s system is generally reliable within a team context. In last year’s case Horcoff is ahead of the rest with Moreau next bunched in a tight group there with Pisani, Penner and Hemsky. That those five guys took on first and second toughs seems entirely believable to me. If you don’t believe the numbers I guess that’s up to you but it seems that opinion is based as much in your dislike for Moreau as it is in observation. Incidentally the ten forwards Ethan Moreau played against the most last year were (in order): Jarome Iginla, Andrew Brunette, Antti Miettinen, Ryan Smyth, Henrik Sedin, Pierre-Marc Bouchard, James Sheppard, Mike Cammalleri, Mikko Koivu and Daniel Sedin. In other words, a whole bunch of nobodies.
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 13, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In last year’s case Horcoff is ahead of the rest with Moreau next bunched in a tight group there with Pisani, Penner and Hemsky. That those five guys took on first and second toughs seems entirely believable to me.
How do you explain the 65% of his time spent with the two lowest qualcomp centers? It doesn’t match up.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 14, 2009 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you explain all of his time against top quality forwards? I haven’t gone through it in detail but as I said earlier, the idea that Moreau was among a group of four guys who played 1st and 2nd tier comp seems entirely believable. Plus, Gabe’s system is generally reliable.
As far as your specific question, here are forwards that were in the top fifteen opponents for both Cogliano and Moreau: James Sheppard, Antti Miettinen, Andrew Brunette, Jarome Iginla, Mike Cammalleri. It looks to me like they were probably taking on second toughs for the most part but that, when they were together, they sometimes took on some big guns. They did share a lot of ice time (365 mins) but spent even more time apart (600 mins) so it’s not at all surprising to me that their QC would be different.
Now Moreau and Brodziak. Once again I’ll look at their shared opponents among the top fifteen: Ryan Smyth, Henrik Sedin, Daniel Sedin, Pierr-Marc Bouchard. It looks to me like there were some opportunities where they could have played together and taken on tough comp. Again, although they spent quite a bit of time together (260 mins), they spent much more time apart (600 mins for Moreau and 520mins for Brodziak). That their QC is very different isn’t a surprise.
by Scott Reynolds on Oct 14, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moreau was usually the guy sent out with Brodziak and Horcoff for defensive draws, no?
A posse ad esse.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and OilersNation.
by Jonathan Willis on Oct 13, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moreau’s zonestart was a 9, while Brodziak was a 149 and Horcoff a 156.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 13, 2009 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on guys, give him a break...
….can’t you see how much he’s lovin’ it?
by Simon M on Oct 13, 2009 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s not the Oilers style to strip a guy of this captaincy. That’s more of a Dallas Stars thing.
I think the only way the Oilers take his C away is if he gets traded.
RT40 writes with An Oilers Refinery and is an avid hockey fan.
by raventalon40 on Oct 13, 2009 10:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. The only Oiler to be stripped of the “C” was Shayne Corson in ’95. And deservedly so, it was an ugly incident that triggered that. Corson was traded that off-season.
Moreau is not my favourite Oiler captain to put it mildly, but he has a long way to go before he sinks to the depths of the likes of Corson. I agree with RT that when the time comes for new leadership, that Moreau will be traded rather than humiliated in that manner.
Writer for The Copper & Blue
by Bruce McCurdy on Oct 13, 2009 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with RT that when the time comes for new leadership, that Moreau will be traded rather than humiliated in that manner.
No one will take him and there is a year left on the deal. Perhaps he should abdicate the throne?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Oct 14, 2009 7:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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